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http://www3.sympatico.ca/pwatt/GCFR/results/Results.html

Steve Martin took the win after Thompson/Sprongl were DQ'd for swapping seats. Chris Martin took 2nd OA and first p4 and Sergei had a great 3rd OA in his Golf.

We had an eventful day. First 3 stages we had very little power after our cat disintegrated and clogged on the transit to the first stage. The car simply would not accelerate in 3rd gear it just made an awful strangled sound. We fixed it for good after SS3 with help from Chris Martins jack winder (whom we were fighting the p4 battle against...Thanks!!) and knocked 15 seconds off our time for SS4. SS5 we knocked a further 5 seconds or so off our time but for some reason its not in the final results. On the last stage sitting 4th or maybe 3rd overall about 1km in we went off on a downhill L4 > < I made a small mistake and turned in too early for the tightens apex and found myself in the outside ditch very quickly after that. The ditch was filled with huge rocks so we did a bit of damage but all things considered it was not too bad. We drove it out afterwards, albeit slowly and the wheel tethered with a chain. We were disappointed to lose 4th overall but I am very encouraged by the times we set during the day, We will have the car all ready by Defi and I have gained some confidence from Galway so we hope to be a bit further up the order at Defi.
 

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1973 WRC POR
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2,421 Posts
>Steve Martin took the win after Thompson/Sprongl were DQ'd for
>swapping seats.

John:

I know we have this rule in Canada, but I do not understand why. Does anyone know why?

Look at the Gorman rally this weekend in the CRS, where Alex Gelsomino and Christian Edstrom swaped seats on each stage and seemed to have a lot of fun doing so.

Why not allow seat swapping, especially on regional rallies? It is an excellent way for a driver/co-driver team to learn what is involved in each other's job. It is also an excellent way for an experienced driver to mentor an up-and-coming driver.

Doug Woods
 

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straight at T
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2,472 Posts
>>Steve Martin took the win after Thompson/Sprongl were DQ'd
>for
>>swapping seats.
>
>John:
>
>I know we have this rule in Canada, but I do not understand
>why. Does anyone know why?
>
>Look at the Gorman rally this weekend in the CRS, where Alex
>Gelsomino and Christian Edstrom swaped seats on each stage and
>seemed to have a lot of fun doing so.
>
>Why not allow seat swapping, especially on regional rallies?
>It is an excellent way for a driver/co-driver team to learn
>what is involved in each other's job. It is also an excellent
>way for an experienced driver to mentor an up-and-coming
>driver.
>
>Doug Woods

I believe this is one of the rules that was written because of things that occurred when JB was (theoretically) codriving. It was written to prevent teams from gaining an advantage when the codriver of record was a better driver than the driver of record. Effectively, it prevents a driver from gaining an unfair advantage by swapping seats with their (faster) codriver.

You can run stages with the crew swapped (for experience as noted above), but you are a DNF from the point that you swap.

Adrian
 

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1973 WRC POR
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2,421 Posts
>I believe this is one of the rules that was written because of
>things that occurred when JB was (theoretically) codriving. It
>was written to prevent teams from gaining an advantage when
>the codriver of record was a better driver than the driver of
>record. Effectively, it prevents a driver from gaining an
>unfair advantage by swapping seats with their (faster)
>codriver.
>
>You can run stages with the crew swapped (for experience as
>noted above), but you are a DNF from the point that you swap.

Adrian:

OK. That makes sense, from a driver/co-driver championship point of view.

What does not make sense is that they are treated as a DNF. If the "swapping" crew won the rally, then they should still be the winners. They beat every other crew at the event. They should win the rally but not be able to score points in their respective driver/co-driver championships.

Doug Woods
 

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50 L3/CR 70 Yump 200
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997 Posts
I can imagine a vet coaching a young driver - and switching in order to gain seed - So the rule is probably a good one.
- Maybe to add the old SCCA line "No competitive advantage" .

I did not ask Alan Ryall - but I suspect he was just happy to be able to run the last two stages (his codriver was not feeling well on Sat.)
thanks to Dan Sprongl.
 

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straight at T
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2,472 Posts
>I can imagine a vet coaching a young driver - and switching
>in order to gain seed - So the rule is probably a good one.
>- Maybe to add the old SCCA line "No competitive advantage" .
>
>I did not ask Alan Ryall - but I suspect he was just happy to
>be able to run the last two stages (his codriver was not
>feeling well on Sat.)
>thanks to Dan Sprongl.

And that is a different aspect of the rule. Changing the codriver for someone else is also grounds for DNF. This rule grew out of a couple of situations in the late '90s where it was allowed (in at least one case by requiring all the other competitors in class to agree). I believe it was instituted to make judgement of the situation clear.

In answer to Doug's question, if the crew switches places and wins the event, who actually won the event (and potentially prize money. etc.)? How do you indicate on the results that car X won the rally, but doesn't count for championsip points/seeding/etc.? It is a much easier judgement to DNF the team than to try and sort it out.

The bottom line is that both crew-swapping rule aspects (NRR 1.A.4) are unambiguous.

Adrian
 

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1973 WRC POR
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2,421 Posts
>And that is a different aspect of the rule. Changing the
>codriver for someone else is also grounds for DNF. This rule
>grew out of a couple of situations in the late '90s where it
>was allowed (in at least one case by requiring all the other
>competitors in class to agree). I believe it was instituted to
>make judgement of the situation clear.

If one of the crew members has to be replaced by someone else, then it is clear that a DNF is correct.

BTW, in my rally experience I have seen crews classified as finishers where during the rally, the driver changed, the co-driver changed, the car changed, there was no driver at the finish, there was no co-driver at the finish and there was no car at the finish. It used to be called gamesmanship, now it is called cheating. }(

>In answer to Doug's question, if the crew switches places and
>wins the event, who actually won the event (and potentially
>prize money. etc.)? How do you indicate on the results that
>car X won the rally, but doesn't count for championsip
>points/seeding/etc.? It is a much easier judgement to DNF the
>team than to try and sort it out.

The crew won the event. Why does it matter who drove? If they won prize money, let them figure out how they split it up. No-one else deserved the prize money since they were slower. Prize money??? Adrian, this is not the 1970s. ;)

We already have lots of instances where crews win rallies but they don't get to count for a championship because they are not eligible or have not registered. So we already know how to sort out such things.

>The bottom line is that both crew-swapping rule aspects (NRR
>1.A.4) are unambiguous.

I agree. I just dont agree with the rule.

Doug Woods
 

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your other left, you idiot
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The USA (well RA) variant

RA 4.2 still says:
- you may switch if no competitive advantage (IF competitive advantage, then the faster driver gets the points).
- you may substitute a 3rd person IFF you get prior approval from the steward.

So, in RA land, there would have been no penalties (assuming Ryall had asked before). I don't know about NASA.

press on,
 

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Itinerant Co-Driver
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RE: The USA (well RA) variant

>RA 4.2 still says:
>- you may switch if no competitive advantage (IF competitive
>advantage, then the faster driver gets the points).

Just curious - the rule says "points". What happens with seeding/SpeedFactor? Is there anything to stop a slow driver from renting a fast driver to buy his way into a higher seed?

>- you may substitute a 3rd person IFF you get prior approval
>from the steward.

Heh - iff. I remember that from high school math. :)

Edit: I had another thought: both CARS and RA have "co-driver only" licences, and RA has a whole probationary process for novices. Swapping co-driver and driver in a hot car would be one way for a novice to get around the P/G2 rule, or to drive in a National level rally without meeting the experience requirements.

Jeff
 

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your other left, you idiot
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Jeff's first comment

This rule existed before SFs. It was an outgrowth of (I believe) Bruno & JB swapping. Since the intent of the rule is to recognize the faster driver as the "real" driver, I suspect that both SF and seeding points would (don't know if it has actually happened) also go to the faster driver. Also, if a slow driver entered as a driver and had a faster driver as his co-driver, and they swapped at some point, the faster driver would get the points and SF. The slower stages that the orignal driver drove, would then be counted "against" the faster driver. Thus, this would do nothing to help the slower driver, and might actually hurt the faster driver.

>>RA 4.2 still says:
>>- you may switch if no competitive advantage (IF competitive
>>advantage, then the faster driver gets the points).
>
>Just curious - the rule says "points". What happens with
>seeding/SpeedFactor? Is there anything to stop a slow driver
>from renting a fast driver to buy his way into a higher seed?

press on,
 

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your other left, you idiot
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Jeff's 2nd comment (RA view, not CARS)

Quit thinking so far outside the box <g>.

In theory, with my co-driver only license, I cannot drive the rally car (even on transits). Thus, this ploy would not work. If I have both a co-driver and driver license, then this could be tried, but then you would run afoul of unsportsmanlike rules.

All this said, I suspect that at the non-pointy end of the field - swapping does occur, and frankly my dear, I don't give a d*mn.

>Edit: I had another thought: both CARS and RA have "co-driver
>only" licences, and RA has a whole probationary process for
>novices. Swapping co-driver and driver in a hot car would be
>one way for a novice to get around the P/G2 rule, or to drive
>in a National level rally without meeting the experience
>requirements.
>

press on,
 

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don't cut
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2,252 Posts
RE: The USA (well RA) variant

>>RA 4.2 still says:
>>- you may switch if no competitive advantage (IF competitive
>>advantage, then the faster driver gets the points).
>
>Just curious - the rule says "points". What happens with
>seeding/SpeedFactor? Is there anything to stop a slow driver
>from renting a fast driver to buy his way into a higher seed?
>
>Jeff

Back when STPR was oversubscribed, we seriously considered doing this to get in. I was "on the bubble" as a seed 6 driver, but my guest codriver was a seed 3 or 4 driver. In the end we figured McArhtur hated us enough as it was, we didn't need to give him any more ammo.


Dennis Martin
[email protected]
920-432-4845
 
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