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Faster Mabricator
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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Emailed to license holders today. Will be posted on the CARS website shortly.

Talks at length about TV coverage for 2004. 1/2 shows.

Does not mention the CP and Hansen Forwarding train program. But does say,
"RDG will be announcing a $50 000 tow fund to help competitors who travel long distances to compete."


And since the question was just raised on another post about recce, also says,
"-CARS, as a result of an innovative and totally separate program sponsored by an anonymous source, has proposed to the six events of the 2004 CRC that they move to full reconnaissance and become pace note rallies. At this point in time, there is the possibility that as many as four events may join Defi and institute reconnaissance and become pace note rallies. While details will have to be worked out regarding rules for reconnaissance, it is clearly an exciting possibility for the series and the future development of our drivers. It would also open the door for participation of drivers from around the world and, in particular, the United States."

Thank you anonymous source who ever you are.
 

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straight at T
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>Emailed to license holders today. Will be posted on the CARS
>website shortly.
>
>Talks at length about TV coverage for 2004. 1/2 shows.

Dependent on the promotion organization. No producer or broadcast carrier specified.

>Does not mention the CP and Hansen Forwarding train program.
>But does say,
>"RDG will be announcing a $50 000 tow fund to help
>competitors who travel long distances to compete."


>And since the question was just raised on another post about
>recce, also says,

>"-CARS, as a result of an innovative and totally separate
>program sponsored by an anonymous source, has proposed to
>the six events of the 2004 CRC that they move to full
>reconnaissance and become pace note rallies. At this point
>in time, there is the possibility that as many as four
>events may join Defi and institute reconnaissance and become
>pace note rallies. While details will have to be worked out
>regarding rules for reconnaissance, it is clearly an
>exciting possibility for the series and the future
>development of our drivers. It would also open the door for
>participation of drivers from around the world and, in
>particular, the United States."
>
>Thank you anonymous source who ever you are.

While this is interesting, it does have the negative effect of increasing the number of vacation days required to do each event. Depending on the actual event schedules, it will likely reduce the number of CRC events I go to (which was potentially five of the six). BTW, I made this same point a year or two ago when we were asked about the direction of the sport.

I would have preferred something similar to the Jemba notes system, but I'm not going to argue too much about people investing in the series - that was how we had a novice prize fund in the '90s. I'm just suggesting that this might not be a positive initiative for all the championship competitors.

Adrian
 

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All I can say is if full Reccee' adds to the time off required the sport will slowly die.

Time off is the single biggest issue for me. I only get so much.....I can always get more credit and borrow more money. However, time off is what it is. I can't buy more or take time off without pay and still return to employment.

The Championship is down to 6 rallies. If attendence drops which rallies will be off the schedule next?

Brian
 

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my crew and I are excited about the focus on recce. With three less events on the calender(currently) and four added days of recce(at least), it shouldn't be too much of an extra burden for most teams this year. When the calendar expands again, I can see where some teams might feel the strain.

I for one, think this is an extremely positive development. :)

Looks like those of us down the order will have to do something crazy to get on TV this year! ;-) I'm shooting for not being on TV! ;-)

Cheers! John
 

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I'm still not convinced that this is a good idea at all...First of all, I have no idea how some of these rallies could make recce work. I mean, to have a recce means you have to impose on the residents of the area numerous times through the better part of a week. A lot of people will not like that and it may even lead to loss of permission to use the roads at all.
Thats not even to mention the workers...how do you get workers for the recce in the middle of the week? How do you effectively police the recce speeds in order to avoid a crash with a non rally vehicle?

All of these questions...It seems like some people like the 'idea' of recee but have not thought about a good way to implement it widely in Canada.
 

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Dirt surfer
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Good points raised in this thread. Recce means extra commitment, no doubt, but the payoff in skills development is large. It means rallying in Canada starts moving toward a level more like the game practiced elsewhere in the world.

Yes, recce means more worker involvement, another day off per event, and more imposition on locals. But does anybody really believe that the CARS crew hasn't thought this stuff through? That they wouldn't announce it if they did't have a high confidence level they can pull it off, and that their worker/competitor base would support the program? These organizers are not clueless, give em a break!

Recce can be quite simple, two passes on one extra day of scouting. It'll be up to the racers themselves to help make it work, to be careful out there and not be enraging the civilians. Recce is not about speed--it's about being closely observant of the route and roads and conditions and landmarks. It's about driver/codriver teams learning a new efficient language to relate all of the above.

Recce enhances safety, enjoyment, and the event's overall spectacle. It's more fun than anything except actually running the course at speed. Please don't badmouth it until you've actually tried it.

The tow fund is additional clear evidence of CARS supporting its participants. This alone is a Big Big Deal, and as committed competitors our US-based team is psyched to commit to the CARS series in return.

Thanks Terry, LInda, Jud, Keith, Subaru Canada, et al...you guys are going for it, and we'll do our best to keep up the pace.

Cheers,

Dave G
LDR Co-Pilote and Recce Fan

"...Embrace loose gravel, beware big trees..."
 

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Really quick added vote in favour of Recce... I think we should have it by all means. It's a fantastic way to improve driver/codriver skills and helps the sport become more competetive and safe at the same time.

Issues of time off obviously have to be dealt with internally by each team however at the overall sport level my own feling is that we have to decide if this is to remain a grassroots/hobbiest sport at the national level of competition. I hope that it becomes something bigger and more competitive. Teams that are out for a hoot in the woods maybe won't have a choice but to compete in regional events, or show up and compete at a regional, non-recce level.
 

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Dramamine is for DramaQueens
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The recce discussion is an interesting one from am organsiers standpoint.
As a competitior - I want to see it. As a driver I'll know that I've seen the road recntly, and that it is my own impression of the road that I am hearing back. As a co-driver, clean delivery of the notes is a challenge, and the feeling that you KNOW your driver is following your delivery is well worth the effort!!!
(Sadly, I only felt that once or twice, Sorry Bruce)

However, to assume that CARS and the organisers are prepared and fully understand the impact of Recce is a bit generous.
It is a learning experience, and I think we are at the point where the only way we can learn more is by doing.

It seems that whenever you poll the competitors, the breakdown is about 50/50 regarding recce. But I think taht Recce is the future of the sport. Looking at Defi, the BIG accidents were in the regional protion who were not allowed pacenotes.
 

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Keith,

With regard to big accident, we should also expect that the folks who enter regional rallies only are most often novices. This means that 90% of the time they have less control over their vehicles than they believe they do and hence the crashes. They simply still have a lack of foresight which more experienced racer develop through many minor off road excursions.

Pace notes in the case of novices could have done one of two things.
1. Given them more confidence and resulted in even bigger crashes.
2. Slowed them down severely because of the shear amount of unprocessable information available to someone who needs to concentrate on their technique more than the speed.

As a result, I agree with the notion that drivers without qualifications for National status should not be permitted to use pace notes... especially if neither crew member has any previous rally experience. The worst is when a totally novice navie tries to bark out volumes of useless info but neglects to mention the important stuff.


Janusz Komorowski
www.jkmrallyteam.com

________
Lamborghini Bravo
 

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Janusz... the first time someone would get to use and practice pacenotes would be at a National? If National's go to pacenotes, at least some regionals need to include pacenotes so that people can learn (or perhaps this will be a role for rallysprints?).

I am in favour for recce, but I don't think every event has to go to that format this year. Let a few events who are prepared to take on the challenge do it, and the lessons learned can be fed back to CARS and the non-pacenote events for a smoother transition in one or two years.

There are some events where the number of days off work does NOT need to be increased...for example TallPines and PFR were both one-day events on Saturday. They could be changed to recce on Saturday and competition on Sunday.
 

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>There are some events where the number of days off work does
>NOT need to be increased...for example TallPines and PFR
>were both one-day events on Saturday. They could be changed
>to recce on Saturday and competition on Sunday.

Not true, for PFR I drove to Merritt on Friday, raced on Saturday, and drove back to Edmonton on Sunday, net result: one day off work. To recce on Saturday and race on Sunday I would have to take both Friday and Monday off for travel to and fro.... Not a big deal really, just pointing out your oversight;)
 

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Not to mention that recce requires organizers to be onsite, as well. It increases the amount of time that organizers are involved on the rally weekend.

Oh well, now maybe the organizers will get paid twice as much as they did before for all this extra work for the competitors. Oh, wait a sec, I forgot, the organizers are all UNPAID VOLUNTEERS.

But it's okay, they don't mind when we heap even more work on them. It's what they live for.................
 

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>... for PFR I drove to Merritt on Friday, raced on
>Saturday, and drove back to Edmonton on Sunday, net result:
>one day off work. ...

One option we're looking at is to do recce on the Friday, have registration and scrutineering Friday morning for those doing recce, and Friday evening for those not doing recce. That way, budget teams could still do it on one day off.
 

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Recce is a question for sure..
What is the general feeling towards do recce at the regional level for the smalller events (IE, 2 roads only, used several times) as long as there is the option to do it and there is a recce school held on the previous night?

I think that out west that the level of quality for the regional event notes has risen greatly so the competitors are a little more used to the more detailed information. It might be a smaller step to take to make their own notes... Maybe the competitors could start with a good route book and add their own notes to it.

I know I have been asked to give more detail (more then Easy/Medium/Hard) at Kananaskis for 2004.

Mark
 

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Faster Mabricator
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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
My vote is stagenotes at Rocky Mtn.

I'd like stagenotes offered at Rocky Mountain. Give the Western teams another chance to learn from notes before they attempt to create their own.

Plus, we all know the network of roads used (minus the one possible new road). Doing recce on roads that the return competitors already have etched in their brain is overkill. Little gained but big expense involved (its not like the stages are near Calagary).

Finally, you don't want plow those roads twice if the weather does not cooperate. Or, ruin them driving in the wet during recce. Beaver was already very rutted last year.
 

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RE: My vote is stagenotes at Rocky Mtn.

I've done recce in many different styles and here are some useful points

1) you do not require extra days if you re-org the routes and schedules. In french gravel championship, for example, you recce in the morning and rally in the afternoon. In australia, you do one day recce, and then two exactly same days of competition. In other countries, they have one day recce and rally next day. I would rather have a long day than spend 3 days. One day recce is ok in my books. Same day recce is ok in my books. Multi-day recce ala charlevoix/quebec is not ok. Single day like defi is ok. We can make it even more compact. In Belgium et. al it was like recce from 8AM-4PM. Register/tech before 9PM. If you didn't get in all in too bad. I missed more than my share of stages learning how to recce.

2) you do not need organizers to 'open up roads all day'. You also do not need to have organization present, in some cases. For example, in the UK at the INTERNATIONAL championship level, you still are doing recce in a CONVOY. One 'opener' and one 'closer' and everyone in the middle. One stop interruptions, if you have sensitivities. In other places, you have specific recce restrictions. You don't have to be all STORMTROOPER organizing it, just the threat alone of losing your rally license should be enough. If you got caught speeding, 5 minute penalty, no questions asked (France). In France they even liason with the cops who do the recce policing. The cops submitted a daily report, no recourse for competitors who were busted, automatic and heavy fines.

3) you do not need additional organizer presence if you change a 2 day national rally to one day national rally (which they all are anyways, and I dont beleive anyone who says any of the nationals are arrive and leave on one day). We need to be more tight with the schedules. Friday recce and registration for saturday start (or sat recce and sunday rally). You do not need organizer presence on each stage at start and finish. Hell even at the WRC they didn't pull recce slips at a lot of the events. At some events you just they will only have one single person there for the recce, hidden on one stage. You will still catch the guys doing illegal recce. You dont need an army. If people know that rule are being applied they wont break them

4) recce in the canadian championship will allow the young guys in our championship (i.e pilon, lestage, komorowski, etc.) a real chance at international level competition.

5) recce in our championship would siginificantly increase the 'show' for the television and spectators

6) properly managed, I beleive that recce can be introduced into the Cdn championship without increasing costs. PROPERLY INTRODUCED. A bad way would be to do multi day crazy recce. A good way would be to do same day recce/stages or one day recce one day rally. For sensitive areas do it in a convoy. For organizations with inability to have workers more than one day, all you need is one or two people to help with the recce.

7) there is no reason to not introduce this at the regional level either, again, properly managed. Best at that level to have morning recce afternoon/evening stages.

8) I think the canadian championship will be the premier north american series, with recce, and will produce the best drivers, if we do it at all levels

9) If any organizer would like any ideas about how to organize the recce and the schedule feel free to contact me [email protected]. I am positive there may be something that can be done to help sort it out. They are doing it even at the lowest club level elsewhere, and in the last 2 years I have tried a bunch of different recce things. I am not an expert myself, but I may present some opinions/experience which may help. Things about like how to handle other traffic, 2 way traffic, etc.
 

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RE: My vote is stagenotes at Rocky Mtn.

Pat,
Thanks for that reply. That is some of the "Ive been there" experience we need. We have Cochrane regional approved for recce and we have been discussing the time table we need to put in place. We looking at possible morning recce / pm race schedule with some classes(?) on friday night or? We dont want this to extend the weekend too much for people. Many people who come from Vancouver take 1/2 day off Friday already, maybe this will add the other 1/2 day.

Mark
 

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RE: My vote is stagenotes at Rocky Mtn.

From my experience running some kind of notes provided events before running a fully noted event works really well. You get to learn and experience good notes like the Jemba notes before making your own. However, I don?t think CARS should legislate this it will be the competitors loss if they don?t.

As for the safety and policing. You are an idiot and endangering the event, other competitors and yourself if you are doing stupid things on recce (notice: not speeding but stupid things, speeding is relative) and that is a better deterrent than fines or marshals. If you think of allowing recce as CARS simply repealing the rule saying looking at the roads within 3 months prior to the event is illegal it works better. They are open roads with the same consequences of hitting some one on the streets, potential for physical harm, the financial cost of your car and or theirs plus the added benefit of getting kicked out of the race and losing your license. Oh and you will still get to have that nice chat with the police even though it is on a dirt road. I definitely won?t be speeding!
 
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