Special Stage Forums banner

1 - 20 of 25 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
299 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I was wondering how much is driver skill and how much a good car?
If a club driver with a couple hundred stage miles experience and an underpowered 2WD car were to trade seats with David Higgins, who would have the quicker times? A pro in a beater, or a novice in a great car? Assuming some practice w/ the co-driver and the car. Anyone with an opinion?
 

·
Four tree two remember Andrew
Joined
·
1,633 Posts
>I was wondering how much is driver skill and how much a good
>car?
>If a club driver with a couple hundred stage miles
>experience and an underpowered 2WD car were to trade seats
>with David Higgins, who would have the quicker times? A pro
>in a beater, or a novice in a great car? Assuming some
>practice w/ the co-driver and the car. Anyone with an
>opinion?

Talk to Randy Bailey.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
213 Posts
Explain that one to Jacques Villeneuve. Wins the F1 championship one year in a Williams Renault, and has wasted his precious limited-shelf-life career with BAR ever since.............
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
46 Posts
It depends on the circuit difficulty.
In Rally if the stages are technical a better driver can overcome a major car handicap.

Sponsors and their TV program don't like technical rallys. We found this out first hand during our 1st Nat. while running 4th O.A.(Oregon Trail 2000).

Our first ever overall national stage win (our 2nd Nat.) was Rim Of The World Del Sur DOWN In a beater $4000. Mazda 1.6l GTX.
Andrew Havas was 2nd O.A. on the same stage in his 2wd RX7!!

Downhill stage times never lie}>

On the other hand, open fast rallys are owned by the big $$$ teams.

In order to close the gap on the Euro drivers, we need to reward talented N. American drivers more!!

An affordable single make spec. series would be great in the US rally Nationals.


Eric
Working hard to get back on the stages.
It's painful not competing:(
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
789 Posts
>If a club driver with a couple hundred stage miles
>experience and an underpowered 2WD car were to trade seats
>with David Higgins, who would have the quicker times?


DAVID HIGGINS
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,146 Posts
There are minimum requirements for the hardware, but once those are reached it is all about the driver - untill the very top of the sport then the hardware matters again (BAR at F1).

A few years ago I read McRae tested/promoted a early 2wd 1600cc Ford by running as the stage opening car at a British National, he set times faster than all the WRC/GpA cars at the event.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,013 Posts
Both matter, but in rallying the driver matters more than on the track. Talk to people who've done both - Randy Zimmer, a former Can-Am driver, likes rally because he can take a 165-hp normally aspirated quasi-junkyard Impreza with rally shocks and tires into the top 10. He's a terrific driver, but even he couldn't do something analogous in track racing. John Kemp and his Audi 4000 have run in the top5 this year I believe - although that may have been SnoDrift which is a bit specialized.

In 1995 a guest Finn professional driver came over to drive the second Lada Canada team car - a 90-hp production-class 1500cc Lada Samara - on Baie des Chaleurs. He finished 7th overall, and the spectators couldn't believe how fast he was. When asked how he did it, he said "I never lifted the throttle".

Conversely, it is possible for a novice to get in an Evo or similar and finish mid-pack overall. But he won't get in the top 10 without developing talent, and won't get in the top 5 without developing some serious talent. And he won't finish the rally without developing some serious common sense.

ACP
Flirting with the laws of physics.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
901 Posts
Scott Fuller made the top 10 at WW in a 2wd Golf... against the Subes and Mitsus.... Man's got skills!

I'd say that a talented driver can do just about anything in any car.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
689 Posts
It is definietly driver in Rally. I have a friend who is building an AWD turbo Subaru mainly because he is a fanatic about Subaru. Being an Engineer he tends to gets bogged down on minor details mainly relating to power output. When he does this I counter by telling him Lauchlin O'Sullivan won Treeline in a PGT car or the infamous Maine Forest Rally were Stig showed up and kicked but or on a more local level Dennis Chizma winning a local Rallycross in a car he borrowed from a "budget" minded freind.
Thankfully Rally is one of the few froms of motorsport were the driver really can make a differance.

Tom
 

·
Dramamine is for DramaQueens
Joined
·
4,813 Posts
>Scott Fuller made the top 10 at WW in a 2wd Golf...

yah ... but Scott's is no ordinary 2wd Golf. NO disputing the driver's talent, but that's probably one of the fastest golfs around (Nichols also has a kit car golf, and Gord Olson's is prety damn fast too)

another great example is Scott Trinder who, despite a loing trec down a side road, won Pgt in a car that has more rally Kilometres on it than just about anything out there, and was dicing it up with much newer an more powerful cars. The fact that they wanted to check his turbo restrictor (yah, it's normal proticol) is also funny!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,246 Posts
dont forget about service crews and initial build quality. david couldnt win if it wont stay together.
as dennis martin reminded us on another thread. all david and pasi have to do is drive rally cars.
you could drop 100hp from davids evo or pasi's wrx and add 200# of ballast and im sure all that would happen is that the gap from 1st to second would just get a little smaller is all.
i would really like to see how fast david would be in jims pickup! jim had that to the floor at the exit of nearly every corner at ofpr. if only i had checked my book better and realized i was missing a page of tulips representing 3 miles of road on the final and longest stage of the rally before the day started. d'oh!
greg
 

·
R5/cr L5 into Helicopter Ride
Joined
·
420 Posts
>If a club driver with a couple hundred stage miles
>experience and an underpowered 2WD car were to trade seats
>with David Higgins, who would have the quicker times?

I propose an easy solution. Let's try it! I'm a new driver, with 200-ish stage miles of experience, and an underpowered 2wd car.

Mr. Higgins has already won the year, so let him run my GTI (110hp, FWD) at lake superior, and I'll take out his evo.

Sounds great to me :D :) :D
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,407 Posts
RE: Flat out triple caution drivers

ahem. The Butts boys.

Edit...for clarification. I was speaking of the very talented Jeremy and Jon Butts. It was not a slam on anyone. Dad, Gary, has shown me around a kart track, as well.

Lurch
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
28 Posts
And the top ten at Oregon! I have never seen the other kit car in Canada (in reference to Keith Morrison?s reply) I had heard that there was one but I thought a gentleman from Lebanon (he was either from Lebanon or just studying abroad) owned it? As for Gord?s car it is pretty proper I was told by him that it made 190 HP at the wheels that would be only 5 hp less than Fullers golf at the time of PFR. I personaly am glad to see that cars of this caliber arwe in the country and would like to see gord come down for some US events i think he could do VERY well here and would be some great compition for our top 2wd drivers (lurch, whitman, shepard etc.)
 

·
Faster Mabricator
Joined
·
3,611 Posts
Gr2 cars

Keith's reply referred to Nichols' car. Don't know what the requirements are to be a 'kit car'. Jon Nichols built it himself in different variations.

http://www.vincephoto.com/photos/defi03/IMG_5193 copy.jpg
Looks normal enough to me. Now the Hajaminas (sp?) 'wildthing' V6 VW Fox, that I would call a kit car.

Gord Olsen had thought about entering Ojibwe this year but changed his mind.
Nichols enters the occasional eastern US event. With his codriver having a dislike for the STPR organization, the next possibility would be MaineForest 2004.

Don't forget the Havas brothers as US 2WD drivers although Andrew is now claimed by Quebec.

Fuller is real fast. I think it has something to do with that rear wing.

I think the question should be, why don't those US drivers come to Canada? There are more headaches and additional costs for a Canadian team to enter a US event than a US team to enter a Canadian event. And some of those US drivers mentioned live near the border anyhow.
 

·
400 flat to crest
Joined
·
5,777 Posts
Depends on the level of the field.
Clearly at the amaturish level of US so called "Pro" events, is it headbangingly obvious that with sufficient expenditure of money that the average person can aquire the rather modest talent needed to make top 15 results, and with a budget enough to cover a few crashes and rolls, that the skills for top 6 results car be readily attained in a year or so.
There are plently of examples of folks with virtually no competition background doing just this very thing against others with 10-15years experience.
This would seem to lead to a couple of conclusions:
A) The guys buying their ready built and serviced Sububitchies and Mitsuburus have exceptional above average driving talents (and we know all men believe themselves to slightly better than average in two areas, and the other is driving.)

B) or as Colin McRea said "These things are too easy to drive..."
At least for those with the readybuilt Sububitchies and Mitsuburus
the motors make good flat torque everywhere, so no skill or cojones are needed to find the sweet spot and to keep the foot flat on the floor.
The gearbox ratios are well spaced, and with sheeetloads of torque, there is little need for any skill in decisions as to when to shift gears to maintain acceleration.
The cars have LSD front-center-and rear and nearly all the guys with any budget have stacks of tires so there is little need for experienced eye to judge where grip is found on the surface or when the application of gas is safe.
Even the GpN cars come with availkable brakes suffiecient to allow the average man on the street to essentially cruise along to and get placing with relative ease in the top 15, evern if the TIME behind the winners is 20 minutes or so back.

Maybe the way to say it is the old phrase:
In a land of Blind Men, a One Eyed Man is KING!

At higher levels of competition such as the national Championships in countries where there are more crews, when you have 50+ guys in one class, then there is a tendancy to return to the driver being a decicive role in the results.

And to those that bring out the tired old saw that money has always been the decisive thing in motorsports, I'll say yes, and the more regular and predictable the surface and format, the more important money is.
And the only role aside from mailing out licences that a national Federation should concern itself with should be working out rules in concert with competitiors to attempt to mitigate the unfortunate role that unlimited spending can have in destroying the sporting element in the Motorsports equation.


John Vanlandingham
Seattle, WA. 98168

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

Black Rocket Rally Tires
http://www.blackrockettires.com/
 
1 - 20 of 25 Posts
Top