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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
After crewing for my friend Aaron and his NX2000 at Big Horn, I have decided to concentrate my efforts onto building up my '74 Saab 99 for Group 2.

I'm sure I'll have more questions later, but here's one, and I think Dave Sharp can help. Dave, perhaps once we're building, you could come and take a peek? Would appreciate any insight.

Anyway, the question concerns lighting. The car has quad headlights, like many VWs. The inner two are the highbeams. Can these be removed to allow for placement of cold air induction and a tranny oil cooler? I would, of course, still retain the outer two beams as they are the normal headlights. Auxiliary lighting would also be fitted. I'm unsure of the rulebook. It just says headlights must be retained.
 

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No, you can't remove the headlights.

NRR II D 2 a (page B-16) says "Original headlights may not be changed or removed."

There should be some space somewhere in the front grille openings that you can direct your ducts through that.

Sure, I'll be happy to check out your car whenever you want. Just let me know and we'll get together.

Dave
 

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Vincent, did you think about buying a used rally car? I know that we play that line like a broken record, but you will save yourself HUGE amounts of money.

You also will get into it way faster. Buy the car, race it the next weekend. I built up my car and could have bought a much better car for the amount I invested.

Don't want to lecture but...
 

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Yes everyone says that, yet I got my "rally ready" car just over a year ago, and cant use it, because just about everyhting that can bust, has. Im not saying I got riped off, but, the car is almost brand new now. I have spent just as much time fixing and upgading things, as I would have preping a non rally car.

Buying a rally ready car is a good idea, but DO NOT RUSH INTO THE FIRST CAR YOU LOOK AT! your car needs to finish a rally before you can win one:7
 

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I wish you would have told me that when I bought my car two years ago. That has been the story of my rally history so far.

Cheers,
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
I actually have a rulebook, and have gone through it, but it's been a while. I took a peek at it last night, and headlight was defined as basically any beam that points forward, so I should have known the answer to the question! :)

As for buying a used rally car...nuh-uh. No thanks. I've heard the line before, but the suggestion doesn't take in account one's own circumstances. In my case, I a) got the car for free (well, I traded my unused go-kart for it, so I got rid of that gear that was just sitting around), b) have quite a bit of knowledge of Saabs as is, from building my street car, c) also have lots and lots and lots of Saab bits and pieces kicking around, which will help in the build and also for spares. I'm also quite attached to Saabs in general, and there was no question of me rallying one. :)

Buying a used rally car and getting to know its intricacies anew as opposed to getting into something I know already - it was a simple enough equation for me. That said, if there was a rally prepped Saab around here, I probably would have gone for it, but alas, no such thing around. The one local race prepped Saab that exists - well, I know the owner quite well (he runs the local Saab repair shop), and buying it was a possibility - but the cage wasn't up to current CARS specs and there was quite a bit of body damage from its ice racing career - like the rear end smushed in.

All that and the fact that I'm quite the fanatic for detail. I'd much rather do something, fix something, build something - on my own and know it inside out and know it's been done right, than to mess about with what others have done.
 

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>
>As for buying a used rally car...nuh-uh. No thanks. I've
>heard the line before, but the suggestion doesn't take in
>account one's own circumstances. In my case, I a) got the
>car for free (well, I traded my unused go-kart for it, so I
>got rid of that gear that was just sitting around), b) have
>quite a bit of knowledge of Saabs as is, from building my
>street car, c) also have lots and lots and lots of Saab bits
>and pieces kicking around, which will help in the build and
>also for spares. I'm also quite attached to Saabs in
>general, and there was no question of me rallying one. :)
>
>Buying a used rally car and getting to know its intricacies
>anew as opposed to getting into something I know already -
>it was a simple enough equation for me. .
>
>All that and the fact that I'm quite the fanatic for detail.
>I'd much rather do something, fix something, build something
>- on my own and know it inside out and know it's been done
>right, than to mess about with what others have done.

well said.
 

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>Still, dont let that scare you from buying a Rally Ready
>car, just make sure you know what your getting.

Sorry I thought you bought a non rally built car. My bad.
 

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> The one local race prepped Saab that exists - well, I know the owner quite well (he runs the local Saab repair shop), and buying it was a possibility - but the cage wasn't up to current CARS specs and there was quite a bit of body damage from its ice racing career - like the rear end smushed in.


That's the problem with buying a motorsports car from any other discipline besides rallying. The roll cage rules are different for rallying than all the other disciplines. For example, our cage diameters and thicknesses are bigger. Our cages are bigger because cars that are just going around a race track don't have to be concerned with falling off a cliff (unless they're going to run Laguna Seca, I guess :p )

Dave
 

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I'd never noticed this before. So I missed my chance to protest both McGeer and L'Estage at Bighorn and Rocky. Neither is running with original headlights, nor have they ever run their current cars with original headlights (OK maybe Tom did briefly at first). The full text reads "Original headlights may not be changed or removed. However, the frontal glass, reflector and bulbs are free, provided they are in compliance with the legal requirement of the provice or state of registration." How can the glass and reflector be free is the original lights can't be changed or removed? I suspect we should delete the first sentence of this rule.

ACP.

>No, you can't remove the headlights.
>
>NRR II D 2 a (page B-16) says "Original headlights may not
>be changed or removed."
>
>There should be some space somewhere in the front grille
>openings that you can direct your ducts through that.
>
>Sure, I'll be happy to check out your car whenever you want.
>Just let me know and we'll get together.
>
>Dave


Flirting with the laws of physics.
 

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Well, the headlight has to stay unchanged. The frontal glass, reflector and bulb can all be changed. So, the part that's left over that cannot be changed is the, uh........plug prongs???

You know, when my Grandfather died, I inherited his wood-chopping axe. It's had 2 heads and 3 handles since then, but it's still Grandpa's old axe......................;)

Dave

P.S. Perhaps what the rule MEANS is that the headlight shape and location cannot be moved, nor can the headlight be removed completely, but that the pieces of the headlight can be changed for others of the same shape. Paul W, what's your take on this?
 

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OK, don't take this as an official ruling from the CARS technical director - I'm just thinking out loud here:

As with many rules, there's history behind this. Remeber when there were only four shapes of headlight? Round, quad round, rectangular and quad rectangular? The concept was that the cars shouldn't look like hacked up monsters with holes where headlights used to be. The point wasn't to restrict you to crappy 1970's north american beam patterns. Hence allowing different frontal glass and reflectors. It doesn't say you can change the bezel. Remember when headlights were mounted in chrome bezels? I think the intent was that headlights should remain the same shape and in the same location as original, to look "stock".

Remember the Minis getting DQ'ed from the 1966(or was it 1969?) Monte Carlo for not having yellow headlight glass?

Where does this leave McGeer and L'Estage? I'm not sure.
 

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That leaves McGeer and L'Estage illegal. Totally different headlights from stock on both cars.

The minis (1-3 and also fourth place Roger Clark in a Cortina) were DQ'ed in 1966 for non-dipping halogen bulbs in their aux lights. Like the ones in the centre lenses of Vincent's Saab!

Is this more legacy from Pegasus III?

ACP
Flirting with the laws of physics.
 

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The minis (1-3 and also fourth place Roger Clark in a Cortina) were DQ'ed in 1966 for non-dipping halogen bulbs in their aux lights.

Funny how the French failed to notice that the winning Citreon DS21 had it's headlight swivelling mechanism disconnected. . . . .or that they had white bulbs and not the french required yellow ones.
 

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>That leaves McGeer and L'Estage illegal. Totally different
>headlights from stock on both cars.

And where would that leave someone who ran a (for example) a Ford Focus with the (available from the dealer as an optiion) twin projector headlight setup? I think the line needs to be re-worded to require the existance of street-legal headlights in the stock locations and filling the stock shape headlight opening. Also, this rule needs to be looked at with respect to NRR II D.1.c:

The original headlight bezels or trim may not be removed.

What is a headlight bezel?

Adrian
 

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RE: McGeer and L'Estage headlights

Andrew;
So, does this mean PFR officials should expect a headlight protest coming from you during the weekend? Paul, get your Protest Forms ready............

I've never really looked that carefully at McGeer and L'Estage's headlights and I don't really know off the top of my head what the stock headlights look like for their vehicles. I'm assuming since you mentioned them that they are very different from stock? What headlights are they running? Are they from the European version of the car, or are they model year upgrades, or what?

I don't think the headlight rules are as a result of the legacy of Pegasus III. Since Pegasus III was never based upon any particular model of car, there was no way to write a rule about headlights being stock on that car. :p

A headlight bezel is the outer housing of the headlight except for the front glass.
 

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RE: McGeer and L'Estage headlights

For McGeer, take a look at the current cover page of SpecialStage - those black xenon projectors are not a listed dealer or fectory option to my knowledge but are a popular aftermarket upgrade and were run on the WRC cars of that body type. They do look mean.

Antoine has small circular (H4s?) and a blanking plate with vents in the area that the usual Hyundai ********* headlights would be. They were that way under Buffum I believe.

At Voyageurs and Charlevoix I ran projector lights that were the same shape as the OEM lenses but had twin single-filament bulbs which allowed me to run over 200W in each lens rather than the 140W of an expensive H4. But they had bad beam patterns and were glass instead of plastic (so like 3 times as heavy) so I dropped them. But I suppose I was in violation.

http://musketeerracing.com/photos/2002/charlevoix/ric17.jpg

I think Tom and Antoine should be able to run with those headlights. I also think that all an open-class rally car needs is street-legal headlights. Production cars should retain the stock ones (I always presumed this is why Tom had the projectors and Pat and John the stock googly-eyes) Let's change the rule.

ACP
www.musketeerracing.com
Flirting with the laws of physics.
 
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