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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
As some you already know, this is my first season being involved with rally closer than being a spectator.

Here is the story and would like to learn your opinion on this that I could understand better the issue.

I called today Jean-Philippe to register for Maniwaki. During the conversation I asked about rally tires + studs. Jean told me that only regional competitors are going to be allowed to have them. For me this does not make sense at all. I am going to enter car in National P2 class. It is very simple that my car will be in BIG disadvantage to other cars running the P2 ?regional? class and not entering National.

I thoughts that it is up to ALL Canadian rally organizers to work together and popularize this sport. This decision is penalizing team like my and ?forcing? not to enter the National events. What happen if organizers of DE Quebec will make this same decision? Are you NOT interested to see teams from West coming to East?

Yours in rally Sport,

Jerry
 

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Jerzy

According to the CARS 2002 GCR's page B-17 D3 Tire studs states " studs or other hard material devices inserted into the tire are NOT permitted"

So, unless the 2003 rule book has a change in it, it can't happen! However, it has been known for little changes to creep in to the rule book that have not been put to membership for discussion. So, who knows!!

That being said, to the best of my knowledge the 2003 rules have not yet been finalised or distributed so I am at a loss to know how the RSQ can announce that studs will be allowed.

Martin
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Thank you Martin,

Jean said that this was decision of QRC. Minawaki is a National event sactioned by CARS so the QRC should have no authorities to apply their own rules above the Nationally sanction event. Am I right?

Jerzy
 

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Hi Martin & Jerzy

The national rules do indeed apply to Perce Neige, both to the regional portion and the national portion.

RSQ decided last year to separate the regional and national series in Quebec, so their regional rule says that you can either enter the regional portion of an event or the national portion, but not both. You can't be at a disadvantage against people in a different event.

For next year, they are planning to make the region championship 2wd only, P1-P3 plus G2, and are asking CARS to make either a change or an exemption to the stud rule for regional competitors in regional events only, as part of a plan to involve a tire sponsor and a spec tire with road-legal spec studs.

The RSQ meeting took place after the last CARS Board conference call, but the draft proposal was discussed by the CARS Board, and I would expect, now that RSQ has approved the plan, that CARS will allow it, and leave it up to each region to decide if they want to allow studs at their regional events. Because studs are still illegal in some provinces, it's unlikely that CARS will allow them for national events.

Paul Westwick
 

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perhaps in the interest of the sport at the NATIONAL level (using same logic) the board might ask: why not also allow them for the national portion of the quebec winter events

in the interests of the national Grp 2 / P1/ P2/P3 competitors who may have expected quebec media coverage, TSN, RDS spectator support etc. and commited to such in a sponsorship package (perhaps local to quebec even) and now will come 'behind' the local guys, look slower, be lamer, not get any local press coverage which we all know will say something like "local homeboy beats sprongl by 10 minutes" etc. and thus is forced to enter the regional portion even though he is from Alberta ? I've travelled to quebec and had local sponsorship (i.e. from quebec city area sponsors). If 1999 was 2002,and it was my car, I would be forced to run the regional to save face and sponsors, or else burn them and get the national points but no coverage... it doesn't make sense. When east coast guys come to my region they aren't going to find P4 cars with 40mm turbos in the regional...

anyhow, you get the point
 

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>RSQ decided last year to separate the regional and national
>series in Quebec, so their regional rule says that you can
>either enter the regional portion of an event or the
>national portion, but not both. You can't be at a
>disadvantage against people in a different event.

Except for those of us planning to enter the 2003 Ontario-Quebec Independent Championship (see seperate post for details)which states "All scoring will be based on the regional portion of
each event, even if you are not entered in the regional portion. (So for Quebec events, you can still enter the national, we will just extract the scores as if you ran the regional". This championship is a great idea until now.
Now those entered in the National Quebec events will be at a serious disadvantage and Quebec competitors that contest this championship will be at a advantage over Ontario teams who have less to gain championship-wise by entering Quebec regional events.

Studs for all or no studs. No double standards.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
I can clearly see that I have NO other choice than enter the regional to save the ?face?.
Besides that I must joint the one of the Quebec Rally Club in order to be able compete in regional series and have the studs?being from Alberta.

The sad part of the story is the issue of sponsors and it will be very hard for me to explain the car " slowness" and ?politics? behind the decisions of CARS Board or regional Rally Boards.

Let them scare now, is this what you guys are looking for?

I thought that CARS 5 years plan includes careful consideration and respectful collaboration with ALL Rally Clubs in Canada. Quebec is still in Canada and ALL teams from Quebec who are sponsored by Yokohama or Subaru should take under consideration the fact that there is a lot people who work hard here in the West to see the National Events running and getting exposure these sponsors in the local media e.t.a.

How are we going to bring more sponsors if we are going ?design? rallies to satisfy only a few sponsors?

"RSQ decided last year to separate the regional and national series in Quebec"

Let them do regional Rally On Sunday?
Jerzy

?one stud for all? ;-)
 

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>I can clearly see that I have NO other choice than enter the
>regional to save the ?face?.

Why is this? None of the Quebec regional competitors will be scoring national points. Since I assume that running eastern events is part of an attempt to win a national championship, why should you care how the Quebec regional competitors do relative to you? We had the same sort of situation at LSPR in a PGT car - had we run the national event, we would likely have won PGT by about 10 minutes. Since we weren't entered in the national, none of the national competitors really cared how fast we were going.

>Besides that I must joint the one of the Quebec Rally Club
>in order to be able compete in regional series and have the
>studs?being from Alberta.

Do you really want to come east just to run the RSQ championship (and therefore NOT score national points)?

>The sad part of the story is that my sponsorship package
>includes serious ?National? sponsors and it will be very
>hard for me to explain the car " slowness" and ?politics?
>behind the decisions of CARS Board or regional Rally Boards.

Why would you have a problem? The regional cars shouldn't show up in the national results which are likely what you are going to show your sponsors. Thae fact that you get whupped by the regional teams shouldn't matter. If you go to Baie it may happen in the summer on identical tirez (local knowledge is a factor). Is that a concern?

Adrian
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Adrian Wintle said:

"Why would you have a problem? The regional cars shouldn't show up in the national results which are likely what you are going to show your sponsors"

You are totally right. It will not show on regional coverage but COULD show extensively on TV coverage focusing let?s say on lower class?P1,P2,P3?and everybody knows what this mean? Their sponsors will love this. Beet the Richard or Sprongl or Pickard by...5 minutes. I don't think that anybody will mention the issue of having the studs.

This year snow was an exception on Rocky Mountain. We don?t have rally to make decision use the studs and we treat everybody this same.

The east got beating this year and there is more teams from west coming next season. Are you affraid? and this is why start using "tricks"


Next is a Quebec and studs?am I right Andrew?

Jerzy
 

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I think they are trying to say that, it's not the results sheet that counts...it's the image in the eyes of the spectators and attending VIP's/sponsors. I know if I invited a sponsor out to watch an event, I wouldn't want to spinning my wheels up a slippery hill looking lame and slow, when another similar car has studs and is flying up it - same "event" or not, you are still running same roads at the same time and there will be a big discrepancy. The fact that a supposedly NATIONAL level car is struggling, while a REGIONAL car is flying just due to tires is a bit weird. Shouldn't the National cars be the top-end?

Also, I thought regionals were supposed to be a feed-in to the National series. What happens when these Quebec regional drivers who have been accustomed to studs, suddenly find themselves on snowy roads without studs in a National event? Learning curve is all backwards here.
 

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I think you must all see this now has 2 completely different classes (National and Quebec regional).

I mean, when you go to the Montreal Grand Prix, you have F1 and Formula Atlantic all running the same track, the same day but with different setup..

This is the same thing. The national will run the track, then the regional will run the track. 2 different races and nobody is entered in the 2 races with the same car!

Regarding the Ontario-Quebec championship. If a team is registered in national but we only take the regional portion for the score, I admit that national people would be at a disadvantage, but RSQ is organising it's own championship, so I don't see why we could forbit them to innovate.

So like I said, I think we must all look at this at 2 completely different series and it is! They are just running the same track! Same thing in ice racing. The super sport cars can run bigger studs than novice class. Two different championship, two different set of cars, two different group of teams...

Pou
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Thank you to all of you!

Now I understand fully the issue.
One very important aspect that I learn is that it will be up to Quebec teams to make decision and use the studs. In my opinion, No sportsman should find ways and advantages to penalize fellow sportsman.
Let?s compete with the fairness and not focus on issues ?regional? versus ?national?. Let?s play a fair game. After all it is the same event.

Jerry

p.s.

Who knows maybe the studs made Ben Johnson the fastest Canadian ;-)
 

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It is important to realize that they are talking about street-legal studded tires, not the WRC style skinny C-5's with huge spikes.

I think it is unlikely that there will be a huge difference in performance, in any conditions other than glare ice. Further, because the compound of a studded tire has to be harder, it can be argued (and was shown by Bridgestone) that a studless Blizzak outperforms a studded snow tire, even on ice.

Don't even think for a minute that a 2WD car will be beating anyone by 10 minutes. And even if they did, do you really think they would show it on TV??

Andrew Havas
http://www.havspeed.com
 

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my point is, the board could make the exemption for the whole rally to use studs

and

the situatoin I described (1999) where I had local sponsors to fund my ride at quebec was real and it would be a problem with this situation...

that is all I am saying

-Pat
 

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What is the rationale behind disallowing studded tires in CARS (or SCCA, for that matter)? Are there any places where an event where studded tires would be appropriate is run that disallows studded tires on normal road cars?

On a different topic, Ross and I ran old Nokian NR9s at Kananaskis and once we got the tire pressures down to where they should be and Ross got used to driving fast in the snow (it was his first snow/ice event), we were pretty fast. I have more appreciation for what can be done on tires without studs.

alan
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
The CARS should make exemption for the whole winter series.
Quebec and Alberta are the only provinces that you can legally use the studs. Both provinces have the only "winter rally". Why not to change the rule books and includes rights to use them in January till March by any organizers in Canada. What the heck "why not"

Jerry
 

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>The CARS should make exemption for the whole winter series.
>Quebec and Alberta are the only provinces that you can
>legally use the studs. Both provinces have the only "winter
>rally". Why not to change the rule books and includes rights
>to use them in January till March by any organizers in
>Canada. What the heck "why not"
>
>Jerry

And Tall Pines isn't a winter rally? Or Perce Neige when it ran partly in Ontario? In both cases studs would be illegal on some or all of the transits.

BTW. January to March wouldn't cover Charlevoix or Pines, both of which can have conditions where studs would be useful.

Remember also that one of our national sponsors is heavily into marketing studless winter tires.

Adrian
 

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What the heck "why not"
>>
>>Jerry
>
>And Tall Pines isn't a winter rally? Or Perce Neige when it
>ran partly in Ontario? In both cases studs would be illegal
>on some or all of the transits.
>
>BTW. January to March wouldn't cover Charlevoix or Pines,
>both of which can have conditions where studs would be
>useful.
>
>Remember also that one of our national sponsors is heavily
>into marketing studless winter tires.
>
>Adrian
Adrian, it is flat more fun to do and to watch winter rallies with studs. Period.

Just like the US, everything we do is done with local permission to do things for the duration of the event. Everything.

If similar effort were to be spent exploring ways to make it happen that is expended at resisting, and repeating WHAT and WHY it CAN'T be allowed, and if people would concede the obvious fact that it's just plain fun, then maybe we couyld figure out a way to allow everybody to use studs during the event, even in Ontario.

In some ways this is Federation mandated prohibition is similar to the Cat requirement, Federations making rules that are the rightful function of the Provincial Legislature (or State).

Does the RCMP ticket cross-country travellers passing thru Ontario?
I doubt it, the cars are assuming to be just temporarily ripping to shreds the Ontario roads.

Could this be a way to approach it?

You guys have all gotten your Questionaires?







John Vanlandingham
Seattle, WA. 98168

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat
 

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As far as driving on public roads with studs I think ONLY Ontario doesn't allow studs (maybe there is another exception?). I had to de-stud winter tires when I moved to Ontario. I kept my Newfoundland plates on as long as I could to 'maintain ignorance' while I drove on the studs. "Duh, no officer, I didn't know!"

On a slightly different note, we do not even allow studs on our winter solo track (not all cars are street legal, so they couldrun studs if we allowed it).

Craig
(no, not a Newfie, I'm from 'Paynter country')
http://www3.sympatico.ca/kchamm/rally.html
 

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As Andrew pointed out, you do realize that we are talking street studded tires right? Case in point, several years ago I ran Thunderbird Rally in which we had an ice "racing" stage. I ran Toyo's (studless) on my 2wd pickup truck (not LSD) and I beat more then then half of the 20 or so cars that were there, many on studs. Good winter studless tires are not far behind most of the studded tires out there. I was not even running tractionized tires.. Pat can let you know how much extra grip you get with those on ice.
Mark
 
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