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Don't think ther were ever any land issues! In fact, in the planning for the last event (which didn't happen) there was a new landowner that was anxious to allow running on a new section of road (that would have been gated therefore eleviating spectator issues). The ball seems to be in Greg Healey's court particularily since Mark Johnson moved to Atlanta. If you see Greg at MFR, ask him whats up .}(
 

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There were never any land - or road - usage issues. The towns of Diana and Pitcairn welcomed the event with open-arms every year. And one of the property management companies in the area had agreed to let the event run on some of their roads, as well. (And one of them was a really sweet stage we'd named "No Straights." Think about that for five miles.)

While the lack of notes kept some teams away, it didn't account for the nearly 40 missing teams from the previous years. As the bushes were beat looking for entries in the closing days, there were a lot of reasons for not coming out. One was that there were a lot of broken cars in the northeast, another that budgets had been depleted by the time September came around.

Are the three items related?

Greg Healey is hoping to do something in 2006, but there will not be a 2005 Black River Stages. Especially since, as Don pointed out, I'm moving to Georgia this weekend.

-mark,
BRS guy, ret.
 

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Mark, good luck with the move; let us know how you handle the culture change! And thanks so much for you work and efforts on BRS; it has been a fine event, and we were dissappointed that last year's event became such a frustrating effort for you and others. Glad to hear that Greg & co. is picking up the banner again!

Regards,
Mark B.
 
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>There were never any land - or road - usage issues. The towns
>of Diana and Pitcairn welcomed the event with open-arms every
>year. And one of the property management companies in the area
>had agreed to let the event run on some of their roads, ......

>
>-mark,
>BRS guy, ret.

Mark and others,

Just for the record:

Several of the special stages we used during the last
five years are on town roads surrounded by State preserve - land
owned by the State of New York. The State claims to own the
underlying road bed as well. Consequently, in order to use these
roads, we are obligated to obtain both the special use road permit
from the Town and a permit from the State. We were able to obtain
the Town permits as well as an oral consent from the NYS Department
of Environmental Conservation every year.

Following Rally New York in April 2004, NYS Department of
Environmental Conservation withdrew its five year old oral permit
for all our stages under their jurisdiction, including the famed
Colchester stage that a visiting European film crew called a true
WRC stage. One of the reasons the State cited was the precedent
established during those five years in Upstate New York when
Black River Rally unsucessfully applied for the same permit.

Ivan Orisek
Chairman and Clerk of the Course
International Rally New York
Rally New York USA
Rally New York Rallysprints
 

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Ivan -

For the last few years, I've sat here (and there) and watched as you poked at Black River Stages. I have no idea what issue you have with the event or the work that Greg Healey, Keith Kreisler, Frank Beyer and I did to start and continue that event. Greg and I have come down and worked at Rally New York on several occasions, myself always as a volunteer. Never once did you offer any assistance to me in the four years that I organized that event. (I cannot speak for the prior years as I was not part of the organizing committee.)

For the record, Black River Stages, under my stewardship (2001 - 2004), never applied for a permit from the New York Department of Evironmental Conservation. (I do not believe Greg ever applied for one, either.) I had several discussions with members of the state assembly who contacted the appropriate people within the DEC for us. Those talks began, in earnest, in the spring of 2004 and concluded in June of 2004 when the DEC notified us that it did not feel our usage fit within their "intended usage plan." So to state that in April 2004 the DEC revoked a permit for RNY based on BRS' "unsuccessful" application is incorrect.

I have no quarrels with Rally New York nor anyone associated with it. Having done the organizing thing, I have a tremendous amount of respect for anyone who can make one happen. Any rally is a good rally, as far as I'm concerned. And I believe RNY has the additional benefit of proximity to a major market, something BRS most certainly did not have. Whenever I could I came down to lend a hand (and would continue to do so if I weren't living 950 miles away). But these continued swipes at BRS are uncalled for. It was (and I hope will be again) a grand event. Were there issues? Of course, there's no such thing as a perfect rally. But when there were problems I stood up and dealt with them.

-mark,
brs guy, ret.
 
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Mark,

>Ivan -
>
>For the last few years, I've sat here (and there) and watched
>as you poked at Black River Stages. I have no idea what issue
>you have with the event or the work that Greg Healey, Keith
>Kreisler, Frank Beyer and I did to start and continue that
>event.

I have no "issues" with Black River Stages. Some of the people
you mention severely critized our philosophy in organizing rallies.
There were a number of differences. One example out of many is
stage notes - these people were entirely and absolutely against
stage notes.

But, that is past. There is no reasons to rehash these matters
that took place years ago. I think that it has been proven now
that you can no longer organize an event without stage notes.
For our part, we have proven that we can organize a safe and
viable event in a populated area fairly close to New York City,
that rallying benefits from a large spectator base in a major
metropolitan area, that we can have safe tarmac stages and that
reconnaissance is an improvement in safety.

> Greg and I have come down and worked at Rally New York
>on several occasions, myself always as a volunteer. Never once
>did you offer any assistance to me in the four years that I
>organized that event. (I cannot speak for the prior years as I
>was not part of the organizing committee.)

Yes, we very much appreciated your and Greg's participation in our
last event this past April 2005. But, over the last five years, I
was always the one who signed up, trained and assigned volunteers at
Rally New York events. I have no recollection and we have no record
of you or Greg volunteering prior to April 2005. Greg was the
Steward assigned by SCCA in 2002, the year when SCCA wanted to shut
us down because we were doing everything wrong in their opinion.

>For the record, Black River Stages, under my stewardship (2001
>- 2004), never applied for a permit from the New York
>Department of Evironmental Conservation. (I do not believe
>Greg ever applied for one, either.) I had several discussions
>with members of the state assembly who contacted the
>appropriate people within the DEC for us. Those talks began,
>in earnest, in the spring of 2004 and concluded in June of
>2004 when the DEC notified us that it did not feel our usage
>fit within their "intended usage plan." So to state that in
>April 2004 the DEC revoked a permit for RNY based on BRS'
>"unsuccessful" application is incorrect.

The last sentence above is not accurate but otherwise you have
just confirmed my story. If you look at my previous message above,
you will see that DEC revoked our oral permit AFTER our April
2004 event and not in April 2004.

Every year, I could call the regional director at DEC, tell him
that we scheduled another event, he said that DEC had no objections
and off we went. Some time after our April 2004 event, before
my next call to DEC, we received a letter from them, the first
written communication in five years, informing us that they would
not continue giving us their consent and cited the precedent,
namely that they just turned down a similar request from Black
River.

>I have no quarrels with Rally New York nor anyone associated
>with it. Having done the organizing thing, I have a tremendous
>amount of respect for anyone who can make one happen. Any
>rally is a good rally, as far as I'm concerned. And I believe
>RNY has the additional benefit of proximity to a major market,
>something BRS most certainly did not have. Whenever I could I
>came down to lend a hand (and would continue to do so if I
>weren't living 950 miles away). But these continued swipes at
>BRS are uncalled for.

I have no quarrels with you or anybody else at BRS. I had my
differences with Greg when he was so severely critical of everything
we were doing at Rally New York events, but that is distant past.
I do not know what swipes you are talking about. I wish Black
River Stages organizers the best of luck.

>It was (and I hope will be again) a
>grand event. Were there issues? Of course, there's no such
>thing as a perfect rally. But when there were problems I stood
>up and dealt with them.
>
>-mark,
>brs guy, ret.

With best regards,

Ivan Orisek
International Rally New York
Rally New York USA
Rally New York Rallysprints
Rally New York Rallycross Series
 
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