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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
OK, I've decided this 86 Corolla GT-S will be my project. I ruled out the XR4TI due in-part to the lack of readily accessible parts (sorry John V.) and also due to the advice of one of my lead mechanics. So, first things first,

1) I think after gutting the car I need a safety cage, seats, harnesses, driving suits and helmets. Any recomendations? Do you like Corbeau, or Sparco, Momo, Monaco, ???? What about suits and helmets?

2) I need some tires to put on my stock steel wheels, used of course, should I upgrade to alloys or not?

3) My mechanic said "The stock DOHC 1.6l should be fine for now, and the clutch is about gone, so race them till they go, make sure you want to race, then step up for a Centerforce clutch and a crate engine from Japan." so that sounds good. How about an ACT clutch or some other clutch? And what about any other types of engines?

4) To paint or not to paint, right now it is 2 shades of red. The Bright, shinny I've been repainted before red, and the dull oxidized, I'm only $500, what do you expect, red. And decals or door numbers.

Any help/advice is great,
Thanks
 

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I'll tell you right now,

DO NOT ENTER A RALLY WITH A STOCK WORN OUT CLUTCH...

It will be a waste of an entry fee.

I put a brand new OEM clutch in my 90hp Sentra and the first rally it went away on about the third stage. I put an ACT clutch in and am very happy. It started to fade on my third rally, so I figure I'm due for another one.

Good Luck, and have fun...
 

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>OK, I've decided this 86 Corolla GT-S will be my project. I
>ruled out the XR4TI due in-part to the lack of readily
>accessible parts (sorry John V.) and also due to the advice
>of one of my lead mechanics.
what did he say??
I have never found a dearlship mechanic with a nice word to say about the XR, so I'm curious.
So, first things first,
>
>1) I think after gutting the car I need a safety cage,
>seats, harnesses, driving suits and helmets. Any
>recomendations? Do you like Corbeau, or Sparco, Momo,
>Monaco, ???? What about suits and helmets?

Call Racer Wholesale for suits and belts.
seats can really wait for a while
>
>2) I need some tires to put on my stock steel wheels, used
>of course, should I upgrade to alloys or not?

alloys will last longer
>
>3) My mechanic said "The stock DOHC 1.6l should be fine for
>now, and the clutch is about gone, so race them till they
>go, make sure you want to race, then step up for a
>Centerforce clutch and a crate engine from Japan." so that
>sounds good. How about an ACT clutch or some other clutch?
>And what about any other types of engines?
>
Ben, as is pointed out already, the advice you got was 'less than stellar'. Poor in fact. And I would agree that an uprated PRESSURE Plate, such as TRD, or ACT would be No1 thing on the list, not some gimmick such as thr Center-Farce.
And the lack of consideration to the intended or stated use, the implications of wasted entry fee, ruined results, is extra short sighted.
Also, why bother with a crate motor? It will, oddly enough, still have all the same material for crank, pistons etc.
If you feel a need to have a fresh motor, get some forged pistons with higer compression into the bottom end.And rod bolts from ARP.

Not to rag on your lead mechanic, and you said nothing about his background so we know nothing of that, but I have encountered few dealership mechanics who say build their own motors or do extensive mods FOR PAY, and as such it seems they don't understand the best place to really zero in and put money.

I've heard the same thing from dozens of guys when suggesting they might want to change out the pistons in the 150,000 mile motor for ring groove wear: I've never seen a problem with that.
When asked if they ever cleaned a ring groove, got a new ring and MEASURED the side clearance, they ALL eventually say no they never had. Good reason not to see a problem.
then they counter: 'Well it ain't a race car' as if the gasses in the cylinder knew thet were blowing past race rings or street rings.


















John Vanlandingham
 

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NO Parts for the XR?
Ford dealership mechanics( oil changer/emissions tech) are morons. You might as well go to Jiffylube for advice. BTW, California has the only XR yard in exsistance. And Ford made millions of other cars with the same indestructable motor. Parts are everywhere.
Good luck with the Toyota.
-Scott
Merkurboys
 

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>NO Parts for the XR?
>Ford dealership mechanics( oil changer/emissions tech) are
>morons. You might as well go to Jiffylube for advice.
Oi that might be just a teeeeeeny bit harsh, maybe. (But maybe not ;))

Er, uh Scott, let's just say that they have other concerns than the average person trying to build a reasonably affordable rally car.
A reasonably alert dealership mechanic will realise that his mission is to maximize the hours billed out at the service department.He'll benifit from that as the dealership itself does. As a result that is what is drilled into his head. Speed in diagnose, speed in executing the service, not modifications, not looking up parts himself, but speed.


BTW,
>California has the only XR yard in exsistance.
Is that George Ross you're talking about? The guy who said in response to my inquiry about a firewall for converting Mike Whitmans rhd Cossie to LHD: sure, no problem, you can have it.


And Ford
>made millions of other cars with the same indestructable
>motor. Parts are everywhere.
>Good luck with the Toyota.
>-Scott
>Merkurboys

Scott, let's just say that I have never seen a person go and drop off a car at a dealership with the work order reading "build rally car".
That is not where you'll find the expertise.

It does seem a shame that the guy would listen to his own guy who seems not to know anything about the cars but rather repeats the same stuff about 'can't see any parts' and can't bother to call or research.

Do you suppose TRD has 225 plus pages of rally related info on the little Toyota?

But Scott, they are pretty fun to beat on and they will rev and sound good, too bad they are so far under the class cc limit, or that we don't have a 1600 class. They would then be a real hot thing.
















John Vanlandingham
 

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For the 3rd time, in case it did not take: CHANGE THE CLUTCH NOW! And put in a good one; it'll get beat a lot.

Use the steel wheels to start; try Kuhmo's and run 32 lbs or more of pressure. (Unless you run on hardpacked hot roads with no loose stuff; the Kuhmo's will burn up under those conditions.)

John's right on racer wholesale. And he's right on the crate engine; waste of $$ on a car you are not going to keep forever if you really get hooked.

Polish up the dull red an go racing.

You have not mentioned suspension: New heavy gas shocks all around; stiffer springs if you can get 'em reasonably. We all need to preach at you some more on this area of the car. What have you thought of in this area?

Mark Bowers
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 · (Edited)
Thanks guys, this is what I'm looking for, someone who has "Been there - Done that" to give me pointers on the important stuff. You are right, the tech I've been talking to does not know how to build a rally car. Give him an F350 with a 7.3l Powerstroke Turbo Diesel and he'll make your head spin with knowledge about making the tires on the back of that dually leave 4 black marks all the way across the parking lot, but once again he doesn't know jack about rally. So I return to the guys who shoot straght about that which they hold dear... ahemm, well, about that which they do themselves. SO, what I'm saying is all the help is needed and apprecieated.

1) What type of clutch kit should I put in? ACT, for example, has 3 levels of clutch kits for my car, is the top of the line racer too grabby for rally, is there such a thing as too grabby? Gabe P., how much more pressure does the new ACT clutch require to ingage? I know John V. said to avoid Centerforce, but I've heard that their "dual friction" clutch gives you race performance without increasing left pedal pressure. T/F? How about a new flywheel while I'm in there?

2) No crate motor, no problem. I do intend to stick with stock till it goes, and by that time I may decide I need something better, or may feel the need, the need for speed (out of the same car). So where does one get an engine rebuilt and/or tuned for rally? I saw an engine on Ben's Rally Page in the classifieds built by Topi. Is that Tpoi as in TRS-USA Topi? Topi from my last post (In the beginning...), John V. said listen to this guy when it comes to Toyota's. Good place to get Toyota engine work? If no, I'm open to ideas.

3) Suspension: Heavy gas shocks? TRD, Eibach, Bilstein, ???. How about stiffer springs? Do I need to maintain OEM ride height (as far as the rules are concerned)? Higher, Lower +'s & -'s, clearance-vs-handling, does this depend on road conditions?

4) John V., you said seats can wait for a while, do I need to weld the stck seats to where they don't recline, or move back and forth, or not (just ?ing safety)? Plus, I really like the stock lumbar hand pump (he-he-he).

Anything else you guys can think of let me know, my whole thing is to go out there and just have fun, OH yeah one more thing, would you guys recommend that I do a couple rallyX events before hitting the full blown rally? I think it might be a good idea, if for no other reason to work out kinks in my car, and in myself. Y/N? Why?

Thanks!!
 

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>Thanks guys, this is what I'm looking for, someone who has
>"Been there - Done that" to give me pointers on the
>important stuff. You are right, the tech I've been talking
>to does not know how to build a rally car. Give him an F350
>with a 7.3l Powerstroke Turbo Diesel and he'll make your
>head spin with knowledge about making the tires on the back
>of that dually leave 4 black marks all the way across the
>parking lot, but once again he doesn't know jack about
>rally. So I return to the guys who shoot straght about that
>which they hold dear... ahemm, well, about that which they
>do themselves. SO, what I'm saying is all the help is
>needed and apprecieated.
>
>1) What type of clutch kit should I put in? ACT, for
>example, has 3 levels of clutch kits for my car, is the top
>of the line racer too grabby for rally, is there such a
>thing as too grabby?
The grabbiness is to some degree a function of the wavy flattish spring between the two friction elements in the disc, it's called the marcell, I say if you get a good disc with a marcell, then your take up is going to be fine.



Gabe P., how much more pressure does
>the new ACT clutch require to ingage?

The OEM pressure is lighter than nothing so even if you doubled the pedal pressure you'd still have virtually effortless pedal pressure. It is a diaphram clutch, and when you depress it it 'cams over' when all the way down and pressure is reduced.

I know John V. said
>to avoid Centerforce, but I've heard that their "dual
>friction" clutch gives you race performance without
>increasing left pedal pressure. T/F?

FFfffffft.;(
ultimately you must increase clamping pressure, and that will be a function of the thickness of the diaphram spring in the pressure plate. Get an ATC, but look at an OEM Toyota disc, or a disc from Clutch Net w organic or raybestos lining.

How about a new
>flywheel while I'm in there?

Toyota themselves had reccomendations to go to their steel flywheel at 160 bhp. I wont go racing with cast iron, so steel for me. But Topi can no doubt tell you if you really must go to steel.
>
>
2) No crate motor, no problem. I do intend to stick with
>stock till it goes, and by that time I may decide I need
>something better, or may feel the need, the need for speed
>(out of the same car). So where does one get an engine
>rebuilt and/or tuned for rally? I saw an engine on Ben's
>Rally Page in the classifieds built by Topi. Is that Tpoi
>as in TRS-USA Topi? Topi from my last post (In the
>beginning...), John V. said listen to this guy when it comes
>to Toyota's. Good place to get Toyota engine work?

If you don't go to Topi, then call me. He's a finn and goes home now and then and really knows what's what, regarding rally. I build good strong motors for very reasonable money that have been among the fastest and cheapest in the country, capable of class wins and even some OA stage wins, I import junk from UK and Sweden and keep in touch with tuners there, including a guy I supplied 4-5 sets of J and E forged pistons dimensionally identical to TRD Atlantic pistons for the 4age. that guy has some great cam profiles for the Toy. but that's much later, don't worry.


If no,
>I'm open to ideas.
>
>3) Suspension: Heavy gas shocks? TRD, Eibach, Bilstein,

Bilstein 41mm inserts and JVAB CrMo lower strut tubes front,
Bilstein 50mm coilover back, any brand spring. Call 206 431 9696


>???. How about stiffer springs? Do I need to maintain OEM
>ride height (as far as the rules are concerned)?

OEM height is nice so your strut geometry don't get silly
Higher,
>Lower +'s & -'s, clearance-vs-handling, does this depend on
>road conditions?
>
>4) John V., you said seats can wait for a while, do I need
>to weld the stck seats to where they don't recline, or move
>back and forth, or not (just ?ing safety)? Plus, I really
>like the stock lumbar hand pump (he-he-he).

Look in the rule book, there must be a bar from cage to prevent seat rearward collapse.

that pump thing proves the Toyota designers are pervs.
>
>Anything else you guys can think of let me know, my whole
>thing is to go out there and just have fun, OH yeah one more
>thing, would you guys recommend that I do a couple rallyX
>events before hitting the full blown rally? I think it
>might be a good idea, if for no other reason to work out
>kinks in my car, and in myself. Y/N? Why?

definately find some means to shake the car down for 500 mile or so before wasting an entry fee, some place, some how. Drive it back and forth to work, that'll force you to make it bug-free.
>
>Thanks!!
>BEN ADER
















John Vanlandingham
 

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>4) John V., you said seats can wait for a while, do I need
>to weld the stck seats to where they don't recline, or move
>back and forth, or not (just ?ing safety)? Plus, I really
>like the stock lumbar hand pump (he-he-he).

Don't have to be welded; there needs to be support behind to prevent rearward collapse. Most folks weld a tube behind the seats across the main hoop. Make sure the rails etc. are in good shape, and tight.

>
>Anything else you guys can think of let me know, my whole
>thing is to go out there and just have fun.

Keep the fuel system stock and in the stock location for now. Check and shield any highly exposed lines underneath, and make sure the tank attachments are good. Replace all the fuel lines and clamps. Make sure there is good slack in the fuel line in the engine compartment, and if the motor mounts are original and old or cracked, replace them. The main cause of rally fires is a motor mount breaking, the fuel lines stretches and snaps, and you have fuel all over a hot manifold: pooof, instant fire!

I would relocate the batter to behind the seats, and put in a marine box as required. Put a battery cutoff switch in line with the negative lead; place this between the seats so you can both reach it in a rollver. Secure the battery with 3/8" threaded rods on each side, with a bar over the top, and large backup plates underneath the floor.


What kind if cage are you doing? This is important to discuss.

We need to also discuss brakes.

Do you have rulebook??

OH yeah one more
>thing, would you guys recommend that I do a couple rallyX
>events before hitting the full blown rally? I think it
>might be a good idea, if for no other reason to work out
>kinks in my car, and in myself.

Yes, it will help you sort out things in the car, and get a good feel on how it reacts, at least at low speed. 2 rally-x's is good, more gets you diminsihing returns, and puts you in an unrealistic mindset on how good you are when you do go real rallying. It's a whole different ballgame stepping up in speed and driving a narrow road, so you need to be humble, not confident when you go out the first time.

Mark B.
 

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>
>I put a brand new OEM clutch in my 90hp Sentra and the first
>rally it went away on about the third stage.

Not to hurt anyones feelings, but... As far as I'm concerned, the only way a 90hp motor can destroy a clutch in 3 stages is if someone doesn't know how to use a clutch properly. I can't believe some of the other knowledgeable ppl on this thread havn't pointed that out.
While yes, starting out with a worn clutch is a very bad idea, I personally don't see a huge problem with new OEM either. 3 years ago I ran a touring school on the east course at Pocono Raceway, which was about 50 miles of high speed driveing on the semi fresh OEM clutch in my 130hp Volvo, (and thats on pavement, which logic would say puts more stress on a clutch than dirt/gravel because the traction simply isn't there) the car gets used every day, and I have since competed in 8 rallycross events with it, and it still doesn't show any real signs of failure. Of course OEM on the Volvo is Sachs, and they don't make junk, so that might account for part of that.

To anyone suffering higher than average clutch failure, I'd ask, "do you double cluth? Do you heel and toe? Do you for any reason ride the clutch or slip it continually for some percieved performance advantage?" I've noticed an awful lot of ppl lately taking unatural eqiupment failure as simply par for the course. I'd be willing to bet alot of it has to do with unknowing abuse of said equipment.

Anyway, my $0.02 for what its worth.


Nick Polimeni
'71 Volvo 142E (daily driver/RallyCross)
Editor, Blue Mountain Region, SCCA
www.bmr-scca.org
 

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Hey Nick,

I think the essence of the advice to replace with a "pucker clutch" is "If you're going in there, do it right and don't worry about it anymore."

I've had mixed results with OEM clutches and OEM style HD clutches. The Opel did fine with HD clutches at about 125 HP, except for once breaking a P-plate anchor on a hard launch. The Starion has done OK on some OEM clutches and spun others after a few stages; seems that at 200+ HP, it is all dependent on the exact spring pressure in the P-plate. This is with the same driver, no abuse of the clutch.

So, if you can afford it, using the puck stlye units seems to cure all ills so to speak, and eliminates a possible source of problems. If you can't afford it, a stock unit will do OK with low HP in most cases, which I think is your point. But remember, the "pucker clutches" are a lot less likely to be screwed if you develop an oil leak. Some of the VW's seem prone to leak here no matter what, so the puck style is almost a necessity, even at stock HP.

Regards,
Mark B. :)
 

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This is true, doing it right the first time is always best. And one has to keep in mind that not all OEM parts are created equal. It just struck me as a little odd that a 90hp car could destroy a clutch in 3 stages and had to say somthing. :) See you at Rapidan.


Nick Polimeni
'71 Volvo 142E (daily driver/RallyCross)
Editor, Blue Mountain Region, SCCA
www.bmr-scca.org
 

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I too was amazed that the clutch went away so quickly. I come from a road racing background, which has beaten heel-toe into me. I've run thousands of track miles on my '74 2002tii with a stock clutch with no ill effects.

My only thoughts as too what could have caused the premature wear are, now that I look back on it, probably the way I set the car up, not the way I drove it: The first rally I ran was Gorman Ridge... There are many STEEP uphill starts. Trying to start on a loose rocky surface, going uphill, in a 90hp, one-wheel-drive car (open diff) on stock struts and broken motor mounts (I know, I'm an idiot for trying, but hey I finished the damn rally) and tires that are about 1.5" taller than stock, forced me to slip the clutch a little just to get moving. Because the Sentra has a cable-clutch, and I limited the pedal up-travel to facilitate left foot braking, I think the adjustment may have gotten a little out of whack too quickly. This probably helped accelerate the wear of the disc. I adjusted the clutch at service, which helped, but as soon as it heated up again, it started to slip.

In any case, I still advise against a stock clutch/pressure plate. There is so much more to concentrate on while rallying, than being kind to the clutch.

If you ever get a chance, check out a stock Sentra 1.6 liter pressure plate, not too impressive.
 

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>If you ever get a chance, check out a stock Sentra 1.6
>liter
pressure plate, not too impressive.

That I'll belive... Like I said, I keep forgetting that not all manufacturers over build their machinery. After all, its survivied my hamfistedness...


Nick Polimeni
'71 Volvo 142E (daily driver/RallyCross)
Editor, Blue Mountain Region, SCCA
www.bmr-scca.org
 
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