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Discussion Starter #1
Would any Group N competitors, who will be at Sno*Drift 2003, be interested in having an FIA Scrutineer from Europe, who specializes in Group N, to look at their car there and answer questions?

Would you also be interested in taking a class from this person sometime before the event on the Group N category.

I forgot to mention that this would be one on one with the scrutineer
without the competition looking over your shoulder.

Anyone interested contact Doug Robinson at: [email protected]

George Plsek
 

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I think it would be better if ALL the compeditors, and their cars were in the same place while the cars are scrutineered. There is no reason to have secret sessions.

Then go over every car in detail with everyone, this gives everyone a chance to get together and understand each others cars, and the rules as they pertain to the different models.


pete
 

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Would any Group N competitors, who will be at Sno*Drift 2003, be interested in having an FIA Scrutineer from Europe, who specializes in Group N, to look at their car there and answer questions?

And then would all of the bogus cars be bumped to open class?
 

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Doug and George, you guys just don't get it, do you?

>Would any Group N competitors, who will be at Sno*Drift
>2003, be interested in having an FIA Scrutineer from Europe,
>who specializes in Group N, to look at their car there and
>answer questions?

At whose expense? Better be just GpN crews!
>
>Would you also be interested in taking a class from this
>person sometime before the event on the Group N category.

A class on the GpN category?


George and Doug doesn't this generate the question:
What the hell is the ProRally Scrutineer position there for if there is a need to call in outside Experts?

>I forgot to mention that this would be one on one with the
>scrutineer
>
without the competition looking over your shoulder.


You guys just don't get it do you?

The membership thinks too much occurs "privately" and the mistrust that many people feel is a reflection of that perception.

Will Doug Robinson, in that private session, tell each person just who he asked and how he phrased it when he (while in some capacity down there in CRS) sought permission to violate the rules as he did when Tony Chavez himself casually mentioned on the CRS forum about his Golf being "the one that Guy Light had seam welded" all the while posting platitudes about "thank you for your inquiry about the legality of....". and sending vile, obscene emails to me?

Don't you guys understand what crap like that looks like?
Owner say the car is illegal,
co driver,who was then a CRS official send we're making inquiries for something very clear in the book (for anybody who troubles themselves to read---what need of inquiries was there?)
Somebody somewhere gives permission to run this car for supposedly 3 month or three events and in the end this illegal car does the entire season.
Now Doug is the guy who is to ajudicate other peoples legalities, and I want to know if he'll share the secrets of how to get illegal stuff to be blessed like the Golf was.

And now on this board you say classes with some expert on what should be a simple matter of reading, and then One on One, nobody looking over the shoulder.
Geeze.

Open discussion in advance is all about solving problems before the events when time andf energy permits.

OPEN, Frank, discussion, not private arrangements.

Wether you guys realise it or not there is much work needed on improving the SCCAs Pro Rally dept trustworthiness, and things like this shows that you guys still don't get it.

In case you haven't thought of it having all the world there while going over all the cars would have there advantage of not having to repaeat the same tired thinhs 8-10 times for the same thing one car after the next. Particularly if it is understood that the purpose of the excercise would be to assist people understanding, in advance, areas of concern, which nearly every Gpn car no doubt has many.

Hey here's a word or two for all you guys at the PRB to think of:

Perestroika and Glasnost

Ever heard of them?

>
>Anyone interested contact Doug Robinson at:
>[email protected]
>
>George Plsek





John Vanlandingham
Seattle, WA. 98168

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat
 

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Discussion Starter #5
RE: Doug and George, you guys just don't get it, do you?

This was just a simple Yes or No question, or a survey.

I did not expect for it to be ripped appart or be accused of being
communist (belive me I know what that means, as few of rally comunity members, me and my family also had to escape).

-george
If you have a problem with me, please give me a call.
(yes, i did take this personaly)
 

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RE: Doug and George, you guys just don't get it, do you?

Geeze guys take a red!

Sounds to me like they are going to try to bring in an expert who can help explain the complicated rules and regulations, and then give a private session with car owners so they can see what might be illegal on their car that they don't realize or show them areas they can legally change that were not understood.

Why are you all jumping on the conspricy band waggon at every chance? That song is getting a bit played out. . .

Bradney A. Boli
Over Exposure Racing
Honda Accord #311
 

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RE: Doug and George, you guys just don't get it, do you?

>This was just a simple Yes or No question, or a survey.
>
>I did not expect for it to be ripped appart or be accused of
>being
>communist (belive me I know what that means, as few of rally
>comunity members, me and my family also had to escape).
>
>-george
>If you have a problem with me, please give me a call.
>(yes, i did take this personaly)

George, you have two or more rolls in our context ( just another competitior, Person, and PRB member) and I think you should try and understand the different roles and not take things personally when they are _explicitly directed to you in your role as a PRB member.

The comment was directed to "you guys on the PRB"

I even said I don't know you guys personally....

You are well aware of the degree of mistrust of what? A system which is viewed as closed, secretive, and strongly centralised, headed by a person with no recall, no checks or balances, and no means of removal.

I would think you personally would be opposed to such centralised, undemocratic system as the current arrangement the PRB and PRD is.

And I did not accuse you or anybody else as being communist, so get down off your high horse, unclench your fists, and since you are in California, like, mellow out dooood.

Restructuring and openess is all that the reference was about, that was what those words implied, and I repeat that you guys don't seem to understand that those are the keys to the smooth functioning of a voluntary social organisation.

See, George, anybody can voluteer for a position for the PRB, and then the exsisting people on the PRB can decide in some unknown way if they want to accept him or not and then, as soon as the person is on the PRB he is _vested_ with power to make decisions which bear on all the rest of us.
Some of us have read all our lives the words which read in part:.... a decent Respect to the Opinions of Mankind requires that they should declare.......

...... Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness (rally-ness) -- That to secure these Rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just Powers from the Consent of the Governed, that whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these Ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it,

So when THE PRD, including you George in your role as a PRB member, not George the competitor ALLRIGHT? and PRB make references to writing private messages, and one on one sessions without anybody looking over your shoulder in the context of technical inspection, and you can see how people think that ties into the now openly established fact that the rules are continually applied in prejudicial manner.

And people are tired of secrecy and that seemes to be inextricably linked to the current PRB system.

SO, George PRB member, how about answering some of the questioned posed by the people asking things.

And George person, I was an immigrant to a collectivist thinking, blended socialist/capitalist country across the ocean (diffeent from _this collectivness thinking, blended economy here).
I worked beside many people from the old East Bloc and raced many in International events on the continent, and as racers do we talked about the systems where we all lived, and I'll tell you this: It is there where I learn my lasting mistrust of non-democratic forms of goverance, and is the root of the mistrust of SCCA PRB and PRD.

But it was also all across the rest of the world where I saw the way the motorsport ethusiasts have attempted to gain some control over the direction their Federations tendwed to drive things, and that solution was volutary collectivisation in the form of clubs, and then unions of clubs.

We have no clubs only Public Forum for Discussion.

So discuss. Here.
AS a PRB member, not George the person or the competitor unless you make that clear. When I address you it is only that role and no other I am addressing, OK?

And don't give me sheet for suggestig you work on keeping a separation clear in you mind, you must. If you can't well.......







John Vanlandingham
Seattle, WA. 98168

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat
 

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RE: Doug and George, you guys just don't get it, do you?

Brad it isn't conspiracy that is truobling it is simple questions like who will pay for this and if somebody is paying for it then why do we need to fly National Scutineers to events and put them up in motels etc.
Am I to bear some of the costs via what?
It's endless!!

And if a seminar or any means of communication is to be truly useful, then the more public the better.

Come on Brad, after all the wierd ass crap and dead silence after WW scandal many of us are really fed up with any reference to privacy.

The PRB must make efforts to reestablish some trust that they are not tainted with UNKNOWN, private, agendas, and only openess will do it, not send me a private email....





John Vanlandingham
Seattle, WA. 98168

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat
 

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RE: John, you just don't get it, do you?

John

Please take a red as previously mentioned.

George posted a question for Doug, nothing else. They were just wondering if people would be interested in some additional help. WHY on Earth would anyone need to nail down every last detail for something that they are simply acquiring about?

I know many of the readers of our site feel that the SCCA isn't up to speed on their exact and ever changing needs. So you want to view every attempt to help as some type of attack on your sport or on your character. Okay, great, that is your opinion, but lets have some intelligent and positive comments on subjects, instead of this sophomoric attempt to belittle / berate / and piss off others that are attempting to improve our sport.

Basically, please try to behave like adults.

Jeff Burmeister
SpecialStage.com LLC
 

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Time to go back to grade school...

?Better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak and remove all doubt.? - Abraham Lincoln
 

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RE: John, you just don't get it, do you?

WOW, all I wanted to know was what was going to happen to the guy that didnt have all the rignt parts, we know this is a problem or the question woudn't have been asked.
 

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Distrust is well founded!

I can see how John can come across overpowering but think about all the competitors frustration with Kurt and clan.
Is the distrust unfounded?
Does everyone have to waste so much energy (politics) TRYING to get a fair shake!?
Where is the integrity within the SCCA?
Isn't this distrust about trying to growing USA rally at the expense of the most passionate competitors.
The lack of integrity was very clear to me during my 1nd national (Oregon Trail), after running 4th overall for the first day and a half.
During the first few stages of day two, Doug Plumer and Speedchannel
filmed from first thru third then skipped our Mazda 323GTX to film 5th place behind us (we watched this happen plan as day). The reseed for day two on the TV program had the 5th overall car in 4th and the the 6th overall car in 5th. and didn't show our 323GTX!
This is just WRONG and I will never forget it.

So think about Johns passion for Right and Wrong.

Eric Eaton - Tired of seeing good competitors getting screwed!
 

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RE: Distrust is well founded!

I said here this before and will say again?
This forum gives me a lot on my learning curve about Rally in North America.
This is a great place but unfortunately pretty much abuse by ?some?.
I respect John and other "rebels" for many good opinions on this forum but? maybe it?s time guys to keep the pistons in your pants and find the other place to relief your pressure.

Jerry

p.s.

Try and read the interview with Mark Lovell again.
 
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RE: Time to go back to grade school...

"A psychotic is a guy who just found out what's really going on." W.S, Burroughs



pete
 

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RE: PRB, you just don't get it, do you?

Ha ha, this is amusing.

First they tell us that competitors have to police their own classes for legality amongst comeptitors. This is most seen in Production class, where cars have to keep a lot of the stock stuff (headliners, back seats, original dash, no mods to engine or tranny unless it's a whole hog swap on stock parts that were an option for that year and manuf., etc.) and can sometimes get a little spiteful. Maybe that's not the right word, but you get the idea.

Then they tell us that the tech inspectors will be checking for class legality. In Tech, which is usually where competitors would hang to check out the competition's car to check for legality.

Then they tell us that the CHIEF SCRUTINEER (who I thought was sort of, I don't know, in charge of tech stuff and people) would not be able to judge whether a car is legal in class or not. In a "one-on-one" situation, where the competitor would have to foot the bill for getting him to come out and look at the car.

Now they tell us that they are thinking of offering foreign (read: outside the PRB, USA, etc.) assistance in determining legality of a Group N, but not where other competitors can see and maybe, I don't know, get ideas of what they need to change, what they could change, what they can't change, what looks like a good idea, etc. etc. etc. etc. (the list is endless).... (you know, like when you wander around Parc Expose checking out the other cars and see someone with a neat idea for keeping all their writing utensils and score card in a handy place that won't get lost when they have to get out and change a tire in the mud and rain.)

And then when John V (not the most subtle guy in the world) wants to know why not do this sort of thing in an open forum, people take offense and get defensive and start flaming away. Face it, folks, John is right when he talks about the serious loss of integrity of the PRB, loss of confidence from the Club members in the PRB, how most of the competitors think the PRB is a joke and the PRD needs some serious checks and balances on his scope of power, and how wouldn't it be nice if the PRB had a forum like this one for actually directly communicating with the people??? What a concept! Open, honest communication (which, lets face it, not many people seem to know how to do), progressive tactics to make the sport grow positively; TIMELY decision making processes instead of this joke I like to call the Board of Iniquity (sorry JB, just my opinion); the list is endless.

I'm going to join John's Pro-le-ralliat after all! :)


KT
 

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RE: PRB, you just don't get it, do you?

>And then when John V (not the most subtle guy in the world)
>wants to know why not do this sort of thing in an open
>forum, people take offense and get defensive and start
>flaming away.

Yeah, John is short of subltety, but if you look at the PRD he could stand to be a little LESS subtle and more forthright IMO. Here is the real point of the whole matter. IF the PRD and the PRB do not have anything to hide (and I am not saying they do, but how do I really know?) then what could it POSSIBLY hurt to do everything out in the open?!? I mean really, the quickest, easiest way to shut up John V. and others like me that are not happy, is to simply do everyhting in the sunlight and not in smokey backrooms. It is painfully simple, that is unless they DO have something to hide, then that changes everything.


>I'm going to join John's Pro-le-ralliat after all! :)

As Minister of Indoctrination & Propaganda for the CCCP (Car Crashing Crazy People), I welcome you to the Pro-le-ralliat, Kommrad Tabor.
 

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DON'T SILENCE DISSENT!

Jerry (aafce),

I would NEVER refer to John Vanlandingham as a "rebel". Being labeled a rebel rather than a "patriot" is usually a matter of who's right, who wins, or both. Call him conscientious, opinionated, honest, observant, loud, funny, passionate, obnoxious, verbose, profane, persistant, intelligent, helpful, enduring, or visionary. But, not a rebel. If you haven't noticed, he holds no person or group accountable except to THEIR own standard. Call him a Godsend, a squeaky wheel or a stone in your shoe. Whether we like it or not, his obsevations are usually correct and he isn't afraid to bring problems to light so they can be corrected.

Dissent always flies in the face of habit, mistake, error or tyranny. But closing ranks to silence dissent in order to hold power, cover up injustice, or maintain the status quo always backfires.

John Vanlandingham keeps asking the hard questions SCCA authorities have not answered. If any one is tired of listening, then HELP him get some public answers so problems are not perpetuated.

Thanks John,
Rich Smith

Vive le "Pro-le-Ralliat"
 

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>Would any Group N competitors, who will be at Sno*Drift
>2003, be interested in having an FIA Scrutineer from Europe,
>who specializes in Group N, to look at their car there and
>answer questions?
>
>Would you also be interested in taking a class from this
>person sometime before the event on the Group N category.
>
>I forgot to mention that this would be one on one with the
>scrutineer
>without the competition looking over your shoulder.
>
>Anyone interested contact Doug Robinson at:
>[email protected]
>
>George Plsek

George,

I'll admit I don't always agree with everything going on in ProRally, but when I read this all I see is an attempt to help the competitors in Group N get a handle on the class without the pressure of other competitors looking over their shoulder.

I think most teams running Group N are legitimately trying to have their cars legal. The class is new and complicated. If someone with good knowledge of the class comes over and helps, this moves the class and the sport forward.

I'd be interested to know how many of the people complaining on this topic have ever seen the GroupA/GroupN paperwork. Couple of inches thick.

Thanks for trying to help.

Trevor
 

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If you take the time to actually sit down and read/understand the **** papers they are not that bad.

There is no need to have secret sessions, this is what causes distrust among competitors. Lets's all go over each others at the same time so each crew can see what the other teams have.


Pete
 
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