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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Okay, so the "one make series" thread gets me to thinking...just how much would you expect to pay for an arrive and drive in...oh, I don't know...how 'bout a well sorted G2 car. FWD with 200hp.

I can tell you what it would cost me to provide it, with insurance (cuz you ain't drivin' it without insurance), and with tires, fuel, transport, and a crew, BUT, first I'd like to know what kind of price some of you think is a doable number. You can email me privately if you choose.

No, I'm not soliciting and I don't intend on renting my car out...I have already determined that it is a non-cost-effective proposition when charging what needs to be charged to cover my posterior. I just wonder if ANYONE (outside of the major prep shops) knows. I have been pricing arrive and drive programs in other series and have added up what it would cost for rally. Ouch.

Any guesses?
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Is this what you think it would take? Or what you would be willing to pay, Brian? I think you see my point.
 

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I think that's what it would cost.

As for what I'd pay......I put down the rally crack pipe and bought a house. So I'd pay about $5 right now. Paint and flooring is more important.

Brian
 

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Owning the car and not paying someone to work on it is one way for a competitor to save money.

I wouldn't pay anything since it's only an added expense. I think that I speak for many others as well.

However, if the series was televised and properly promoted some people could arrange sponsorship to cover more costs.
 

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I would pay in the $5,000 range but I do not think this service could be provided for one car at this cost out side of the car's home town event. There would need to be more than one car running in this program to make it work for the providers. I would rather self insure, ie post a bond or something, than wast the money on race insurance that stuff is like $100 per thousand of car value per event.

Derek
 

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Purely as a point of interest, I think JB rents one of his Hyundai cars for $10k per event + tires + gas + crew services + whatever else (can't get details as their website seems to be having issues), so I suppose ~$18k is not that far off. Of course, those are open class cars. Still, I wouldn't think that any shop that could ACTUALLY MAKE MONEY from this type of endeavor would charge much less for a G2 type car. I find it extremely short-sighted that some people on these forums would lead themselves to believe that any shop that wants to stay in business would just up and support a one-make type series, assuming all the financial risk, with and unknown chance at making any reasonable return, considering the current state of North American rallying.

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Mike Moyer
Eclipse GSX #302 (being rebuilt)
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FWIW,
We rent out an American Sedan Mustang for the CenDiv National series. This car won the runoffs in '99, sat on the pole the next 2 years.
Anyway, we charge $3000 per race (not including the runoffs) weekend. That doesn't include entry fees, tires, or fuel. It does include transport, maintenance between races, crew. There is a damage clause, $6000, we feel sufficient to rebody the car in case of a major crash.
The car has been rented every race for the last two years.
We are currently building a new (2004) Mustang, and plan to rent the current (1995) car next year.
Both of our Mustangs are '95's and use the same suspension setups, engines, transmissions. We swap in fresh engines as needed, have six engines between the two cars.
Because we are transporting two cars to each Cendiv race (50' Pace Stacker)transport fees are split between two cars.
I would think that rally car rentals COULD be priced at the same level for a P class, or a lower level G2 car. Obviously the crash damage factor enters into this, also driver, and co-driver experience.
Interesting thread! Curious what an Evo rents for.

Ken
 

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Article on the fairly new Australian Subaru Impreza 2.5 RS Spec Class says competitors estimate that they spent around US 70,000 last year on their national series (US 25,000 for fully prepared ready to race body-in-white minus rally rims and tires, and US 5,000 per event).

So, as a rough guesstimate, it would likely cost around US 70,000 per year, or around US 8,000 per event (calculated using either total of US 70,000 / 9 events; or US 25,000 / 9 for amortized car cost + US 5,000 per event).

I am personally not in a position to spend US 8,000 per event, and if I was I am not sure that it would be the best use of my rally dollars; but then again, I'm not a national level driver looking to compete for a national championship.

However, if the series took off due to exciting close competitive racing due to the spec nature of the class, and it became the class used to determine the overall US National Driving / Co-driving champs; resulting in sponsors willing to cover about half the cost, or substantial cash prizes for finishing position, or some combination of both .....

Edited to add :

Of course, this doesn't include any profit margin for an independent rally outfit to make money = + US 2,000 per car per event ? - for a total of US 10,000 per event + crash bond.

But the most likely scenario would be a manufacturer supported / backed spec class e.g. Subaru for Impreza 2.5 RS, where the payoff would be national level branding exposure / advertising; and the per event cost would be back down to the US 8,000 per event cost level.

Again, less sponsorship / cash prize / combination sponsor/prize subsidies ...


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But, excluding off course damage(or car to car in the case of road racing), generally speaking wouldn't maintenance on a rally car be significantly higher than a road race car?
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
Yes. Yes it would. Even INCLUDING off course damage, it is higher. Sand traps are effective. Other cars move. Trees don't. And there are a lot more parts on a rally car that get smooshed that aren't even there in a comparable...let's say...World Challenge car.
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
>Curious what an Evo rents for.

Unfortunately, many would probably rent for about the same as a Protege. So why would anyone rent a Protege, eh?

It will depend entirely on the level of the operation. The better the build, prep, and support, the more it will (and should) cost.
 

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Interesting. To answer 'what I would expect to pay', I would analyze the cost from a biz view.

ESTIMATES on COSTS:
Well sorted car (not top technology, but well sorted, and reliable): $25,000. Assumes some level of cost savings by starting with a low cost roller car. I would plan to make this shell last for >20 events. Avawragesc cost per event: $1250

Tires: One fresh set: $750. Extra tires at a fixed cost per tire.

Maintenance: $2000 per event (a guess)

Towing and support expenses (3 crew members, no excess time for recce or practice; 2 day event like MFR or LSPR): $4200 per event in the eastern half of US for an eastern based opeartion.

Fuel and personal transport/measl/lodging extra for purchaser. TBD damage deposit used to cover damage. like busted wheels (not insurance). Many other terms and conditions, etc. Spares support might be negotiable or fixed.

ESTIMATE ON PROFIT: Covers development and some overhead, interest on cash invested, and so forth. Assumes 3 (yes three) cars in the operation, at an average of 8 events per year per car. Assumes that this operation is part of a larger operation, where most of the personnel and tow vehicle/trailer/tool expenses are covered by the other operations when not involved in the rally car rental biz. ROUGH ESTIMATE OF $5000 profit per car per event to make it worth my effort as a biz operator (with other opportunities I could pursue) and defray most costs over a 2-3 year period.

TOTAL ESTIMATE: $15,000 PER CAR PER EVENT.

This is a conservative estimate, and should be such as to avoid getting hurt in the operation. One could do it for somewhat less with cost savings efforts in a smaller operation, but one would not make much of an existance out of it. But, it might be worthwhile to do so if it was part of a larger strategic goal of attracting associated business. Costing does not account for tax effects, which could be a significant improvement on profitability on assets with a very rapid depreciation.

Yes, sir Lurch, a very interesting question. Glad you asked it.

Regards,
Mark B.
 

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> Curious what an Evo rents for.
>

I got a quote once for a SCCA national, brand new Evo. I think it was around $17,000 not including any insurance. I figured if in 3 rallies I could buy the car, it's not worth it to rent. You're better off saving your money from those three events and buying the damn thing! But everyone?s situation is different, so for some renting make sense.

Andrew Sutherland
UniversalRally.com
 

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You guys are thinking way too professionally...

Instead of applying the "what would I charge if I was in the high-end rally car rental biz?" arguement, how about looking at it from the "I have a reasonably driveable car, I'm going to be at the event anyway, might as well get some money out of the car" angle.

Oh, and rent-a-ride is definitely something we're considering, now that we're officially rally car-less.

Start with Mark's first equation: what's the best-case (no damage) wear and tear number? Even assuming a $25k car, that's not a big number. Now assume a well-used car worth <$10k. Assuming it's tuned well back from the edge, you don't even think about engine or gearbox wear and tear. Maybe throw in a couple of hundred bucks for clutch and brake pad wear.

What about insurance? Let's face it, the used rally car market is in the toilet right now. It's never been cheaper to buy a decent, fully built car. Forget insurance unless you're talking about a very expensive car or a very poor renter.

New tires is an expensive addition, but unless you're a likely top-20 finisher, "50 mile" hand me downs at $50-$80 each from a top team are much more economical. Up to the renter, of course.

Towing and support is dependent on distance and total time, but from my NEDiv perspective, we paid between $1000 and $2500 per NEDiv event for full-service towing and crew. A small event like Black River or Sawmill was at the low end, Maine (2-day event, 500 miles away) was at the high end.

Don't forget that at the sub-to-20 level, you can easily share service. We frequently shared service with one or two other teams that were 15-20 places behind us in the field. More cost savings there.

So what would I pay for a fun, but not cutting-edge, ride at a relatively local event?

$1200 for renting the car itself + any damage done.
$500-800 for tires.
$2000 for arrive and drive service.
$whatever for my own travel, hotel and meals.

= around $4000.

Now, if you take a smart mechanic who buys/builds 3 identical cars--say Golfs--and has a half dozen parts cars out back for body parts, you could really operate this as a side business for very little money.
 

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Couple of other points...

First, you don't write a business plan by heaping a whole bunch of estimated costs together, adding a nice chunk of profit and hanging out a shingle. Eric started by asking "what would you pay" and that's absolutely the correct first question. When you get the answer (which I guarantee is a lot less than $15k), THEN you start working backwards.

Rally in the U.S. is full of logical inconsistancies. How does a smart businessman account for the fact that it costs twice to three times as much to build a rally car than it costs to buy one? How can it cost so little for some people to run events, and so much for others, without much correlation to fun (and often results)? How can you present a rental package to a well-informed potential customer and have them regard it a good value (or at least not have them laugh at you)?

First, a shop has to figure out how to deliver an extremely satisfying arrive and drive experience for novice or veteran drivers for well under $10k per event. Then they can build the volume and economies of scale necessary to make real money at it.

Or you can just do what Vermont Sportscar, Libra or TAD does and try to capture the silly-rich dilletante market.

Oh yeah--one more thing. I bet it would be nearly impossible to get insurance for an operation like this. You're going to need a hundred page liability waiver and an asset-free business entity. }>
 

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RE: Couple of other points...

So what would I pay for a fun, but not cutting-edge, ride at a relatively local event?

$1200 for renting the car itself + any damage done.
$500-800 for tires.
$2000 for arrive and drive service.
$whatever for my own travel, hotel and meals.

= around $4000.

(I would pay this) and also I would allow you into my car for this.
I am a do-it yourselfer and building cars is not three times more expensive than buying them.
"If you can turn a wrench"
 

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RE: Couple of other points...

changing it a little bit, how about renting out the nav's seat to paying customers, that way you still have control of the car. stuart
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
RE: Couple of other points...

>Lurch
>
>Where are you going with this?

Nowhere, really. It just became very apparent to me from the other thread (One Make Series) that percieved value of the sport in dollars was an extremely variable number. This thread was just trying to expand on that. Numbers from a couple grand to 25 large have been thrown around here. That's about what I figured would happen.

It is interesting to me that, even in the hypothetical rental business, folks see a large variation in cost based on the age and level of equipment. I know why the prep shops offer what they offer and why they target the market that they do. I would do the same. Also, people forget man hours. Don't see much up there for paying a crew.

Rallying in the US is like taking the Legends cars and the local IT cars and the regional GT cars and the World Challenge cars and the ALMS cars and throwing them all on the same track together. Because it is such a small overall community, we don't have the luxury of having seperate races for each level of involvement at different venues. That is the hard part about rallying. So many different levels of involvement, expenditure, aspiration, etc. But because we are ALL members of this community and we quite literally have no place else to go, we have to find a place where folks with many different goals and outlooks can find common ground.

You can say its a professional motorsport or a completely ametuer motorsport. You'd be right either way, depending on the goals of each individual team.
 
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