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No need to apologise Morgan, some sad people just crawl out of bed in the morning with the sole intention of making others lives as miserable as they have let their own become. No matter how well intentioned your comments maybe, one of these types will find a way to twist it around and shove it where the sun don't shine.

In a society which encourages free speech you have to be prepared for all views and responses to your own views. Most normal people accomplish this in a cordial manner however there are others that will use your heritage, parentage, patriotism and any other trait to satisfy their passion of raising others hackles.

Just do what I do, lay straight in bed at night comforted by the thought that they can't sleep because you have exhausted their abilities to get to you.

Funny how society has changed with these types able to rant to their hearts content. Maybe it was a mistake to outlaw dueling!!!

Look forward to your continued posts, whether I agree with you or not.

Don
 

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>I apologize, JV found my temper again.
>I can't even take my own advice:(

Morgan, what's temper have to do with it?

What pisses you off to the point that temper is involved?

Everyplace in the world where they have motorsport that we look longingly at, it is because they have Mass Participation and even tho we, when we're there, see just the top dogs on TV, we know from reading the results that there were 175 or even more in the event, and we know from reading that there were 3 or 4, or 6 other similar sized events in that country on that same week end.
And because they have Mass participation we feel that results there are reflecting some good driving, co-driving and crewing. Overcoming a whole stack of others trying fairly equally close.
Not three or five.

Why do must adults think Mud Bog Drags or Monster Trucks are silly?

I think because we know that those are done soley as a hype Spectacle.

This is the logical end of basing a future on Promoting the supposed spectacle.

How many of us have run out and built Monster Trucks?

The places where we respect their series and results and which produces stacks and stacks of drivers of high caliber all have as the foundation of their sysytems Clubs where you meet at the pub and drink beer. Boy, without beer i think there would be no rally.

But it's at local club meetings where the real infection takes place and where you sit next to the guy who just finished second in a World event the previous Sunday and you know them as real, but er somewhat more focused, if maybe a bit narrowly, people.
And it's in the local motorclubs where we drag our friends and where the shake out of who is going do what in terms of co-driving, mechanicing, organising, etc occurs.

And it's there you realise that if this is anything it's competition, and simultaneously co-operation between people, lots of people.

But in the end it's a question of where you want to concentrate efforts and resources and what you want to accomplish and what you want the results to supposedly show.
The well funded have the resources and the momentum to pull in more resources, they don't need the system to eliminate all other signs of competition.


I want to see efforts concentrate on seeing that the participation levels _increase and maintain_ for a longer duration, and that all events are open to all who on that day wish to take on all on any given day.

Even YOU if you want. And if you do good, in whatever car you're driving, that YOU get the credit for the result. YOU. Not the car,it's their ad dept which is supposed to Blow that particular horn.

So why you getting pissed if what I want to see is opportunity for YOU to drive and if it's the case, get Credit?

By they way, as with most other social and economic trend lines, there has been an increasing concentration of wealth and resources into fewer and fewer hands in the last 30 years in an accellerating rate, and with that has been a decrease in participation in nearly anything you want to look at from politics to rally participation.
A key element in this concentration is control of media.


In this respect, I will agree that I look to models in the recent past for goals to set in the future in terms of participation.







John Vanlandingham
Seattle, WA. 98168

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Look for an email from me

John,
It is not what you say,it is how you say it! And then you wonder why people get mad, look at how many threads are locked due to your instigation.
I agree with a lot of what you are saying, I just think it needs to go hand in hand with what I am saying.
 

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>John,
>It is not what you say,it is how you say it!

Morgan:

True. However, when you read JV's posts, you have to look at the message and not the messenger. I have found that John is amost always correct.

Regarding his current post about building a base of club rallying - he is bang on. In my opinion, this is the main reason that we lost the four previous World Champioship Rallies which we had in North America.

You cannot have a successful sport unless its structure is shaped like a pyramid - with the base on the ground and the tip in the air. Unfortunately, rallying in North America currently has the base in the air and is balanced on the tip - a very unstable and eventually catastrophic situation.

Had we had better vision in the 1970s, we would have built this base of club rallying better and by now the current debates about club rally versus "pro" rally would be academic.

Doug Woods

P.S. Based on my experiences around the world, John is also quite correct in the direct link between rallying and beer :).
 

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I would just add that 'how you say it' can be interpreted several ways. What you interpret the message as and the way that I perceive it may be substantially differrent.

It is very difficult to read 'tone' into text messages.

I usually laugh when I read most of his stuff, but then again I know John.

Matt Manspeaker
Seattle, WA USA
89 323GTX - Open
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Matt
Your right, it is all in how you interpret it: Some find it Funny, others find it condescending
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
>>John,
>>It is not what you say,it is how you say it!
>
>Morgan:
>
>True. However, when you read JV's posts, you have to look
>at the message and not the messenger. I have found that
>John is amost always correct.

When the messenger alienates the people the message is for,the message gets diluted.


>
>You cannot have a successful sport unless its structure is
>shaped like a pyramid - with the base on the ground and the
>tip in the air. Unfortunately, rallying in North America
>currently has the base in the air and is balanced on the tip
>- a very unstable and eventually catastrophic situation.

Personally, I think it needs to be a box- big base, big top
There has to be something to strive for, otherwise why even bother having a top or a bottom?
Saying which needs to come first is like saying was the Chicken or the Egg first? They need to be developed together!

>
>Had we had better vision in the 1970s, we would have built
>this base of club rallying better and by now the current
>debates about club rally versus "pro" rally would be
>academic.
>

Unfortunately, it did not work, so what happened?
>
>
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
A quote from the email I sent John,

Your philosophy will make the sport stronger and more stable, my philosophy will attract newcomers and potential money. We need both philosophies!

I'll add
As a photographer, my job directly revolves around marketing and advertising. I am brought in when a client realizes they have to present themselves visually to the world to get their message out. Well, what I do is present rallying visually to the world (try to at least)so it is understandable that I take this stance. Since, as John so kindly pointed out, I do not drive or own a rally car (I have navigated, serviced, and chauffered people around), I can only offer my perspective on how the sport translates to the public and how I think the results of good marketing could improve the sport. The original intent of my post was to point out that Hyundai did more for the sport than some may have realized. Also that the current direction of rallying might not be so far off and that the manufacturers may be helping the sport more than people think. I may be wrong, but the fact that so many more spectators have shown up at rallies in the past three years is a direct result of marketing. Whether it was done by Subaru,SCCA, WRC, Speedvision,Playstation is irrelevant, what is relevant is that marketing works.

I have not once told John that he is wrong or attacked his ideas, as he has done to me. I am sorry if my philosophy does not sit right with John or his Vive le Prole-le-ralliat followers, but I am just trying to open peoples eyes to a different (not right or wrong)perspective. If I have insulted anyone or their 10-20 year old car,it was purely unintentional. I have nothing but respect for all of you that spend your hard earned money and time to do what you do. Hopefully, what I do will benefit you in some way or another.
 

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>Personally, I think it needs to be a box- big base, big top
>There has to be something to strive for, otherwise why even
>bother having a top or a bottom?

There is the flaw in your reasoning. By nature of it being harder to gain, and more scarce the top [l]MUST[/i] be smaller! If any other major form of motorsport was a "box" there would be 10,000 cars on an F1 grid, or 1000 stock cars at Daytona, but there is not. We all cant be ProRally champion, but we should all have an equal chance under the regulations, regardless if we drive an '81 Volvo, an '88 XR4Ti, or an '03 Evo it should make no difference but that is not the case. Now on to the second issue.

>Saying which needs to come first is like saying was the
>Chicken or the Egg first? They need to be developed
>together!

The bottom, the club guys, MUST come first, otherwise where do you think the guys at the pointy end of the field are going to come from!? I mean, look, because of the sad state of afairs here we cant even put an american in the top 3 of our OWN championship! Why is that? The US is the most powerful motocross nation in the world by far and has been for 20+ years, why do you think that is? Its because thousands upon thousands of kids in the US can get a chance to race all over the country with the only obsticle to being the national champion, or world champion, their skills just like rally is in Finland. There is no governing body telling them that their bike is too old and is making them look bad so they have to buy a new one or no be a "pro".
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
>
>There is the flaw in your reasoning. By nature of it being
>harder to gain, and more scarce the top [l]MUST[/i]
>be smaller! If any other major form of motorsport was a
>"box" there would be 10,000 cars on an F1 grid, or 1000
>stock cars at Daytona, but there is not. We all cant be
>ProRally champion, but we should all have an equal chance
>under the regulations, regardless if we drive an '81 Volvo,
>an '88 XR4Ti, or an '03 Evo it should make no difference but
>that is not the case. Now on to the second issue.

Good point, but I am refering to the amount of effort put into creating the class not the amount of participants. So by box I mean, equal efforts going into producing each tier. The only way to have an equal chance, as you know, is a one makes championship. Which as far as I know, just doesn't happen at top level motorsport, since the engineering is also part of the competition. I don't follow motorcross, but I am sure it is like that too. Is there a manufacture dominance?
>
>The bottom, the club guys, MUST come first,
>otherwise where do you think the guys at the pointy end of
>the field are going to come from!?

From my perspective, where are the guys from the flat bottom end going to go to?

I mean, look, because of
>the sad state of afairs here we cant even put an american in
>the top 3 of our OWN championship! Why is that?

That is a shame, but I think that is an effect of our series being held back for so long. From what I have seen, the American drivers seem to have become faster and better from having the foreigners here. So given a couple of years...who knows


The
>US is the most powerful motocross nation in the world by far
>and has been for 20+ years, why do you think that is? Its
>because thousands upon thousands of kids in the US can get a
>chance to race all over the country with the only obsticle
>to being the national champion, or world champion, their
>skills just like rally is in Finland. There is no governing
>body telling them that their bike is too old and is making
>them look bad so they have to buy a new one or no be a
>"pro".
Right, but there already is a "top" in place for them to strive for and provide something for them to see and say "I want to do that" That is why I say both need to happen at the same or similiar times.
I'd venture a bet that no one is really competive in motorcross unless they have the latest machine and of course the latest Troy Lee Designs safety gear.:9
Also it is much cheaper to get into motorcross, and you don't have to close down a road to practice. America has way more trails and such to practice on than the Europeans too.

there is really no right answer for this debate
 

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John, I don't know if you realized it as you wrote it or not but you just described the way that NASCAR is organized in America. Those of you not in the SouthEast may not get to see the entry level feeders for this sport.
 

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>Good point, but I am refering to the amount of effort put
>into creating the class not the amount of participants. So
>by box I mean, equal efforts going into producing each tier.

OK, I did not catch that, I see what you are saying now.

>The only way to have an equal chance, as you know, is a one
>makes championship. Which as far as I know, just doesn't
>happen at top level motorsport, since the engineering is
>also part of the competition. I don't follow motorcross, but
>I am sure it is like that too. Is there a manufacture
>dominance?

See, I dont expect to have an equal chance against the factory teams from a funding and budget prespective, but what I DO expect is that the governing body will not legislate me out, (20yr rule, 5 race minimum rule, ect.) before I even get a chance! I will never have equal amounts of $$ as the factories, neither do the privateers in motocross, but they do play under rules that are not slanted against the privateer.

>I mean, look, because of
>>the sad state of afairs here we cant even put an american in
>>the top 3 of our OWN championship! Why is that?
>
>That is a shame, but I think that is an effect of our series
>being held back for so long. From what I have seen, the
>American drivers seem to have become faster and better from
>having the foreigners here. So given a couple of years...who
>knows

I agree, it has been held back by stupid rules, that have been arbitrarily handed down to us without any say, warning, or imput. Personally I am glad the Euro's are here, I think we can learn from them in many ways, and they will give us a performance target to shoot for. My point, and I didnt make it clearly, is more aimed at "What do we do to get those guys out of here?" and by that I mean in the good way, IE the factory teams dont need them because they can already find the level of talent they need right here in the US. The way you build a large crop of young drivers is to get folks out there! You dont get lots of young guys starting this sport if they all think they must have an Evo, or a WRX, you do it by getting them to realize "Hey, I could use Grandma's Volvo to start, and get a WRX/Evo later".

>Right, but there already is a "top" in place for them to
>strive for and provide something for them to see and say "I
>want to do that" That is why I say both need to happen at
>the same or similiar times.

We already have a "top" place to go, the difference, and the problem, is it has beed turned into the manufarturers lounge instead of the top of a racing series.

>I'd venture a bet that no one is really competive in
>motorcross unless they have the latest machine and of course
>the latest Troy Lee Designs safety gear.:9

Thats not the point! The point is, the AMA (governing body) doesnt CARE what you ride and provided you pass tech, they will let you ride a 1974 Bultaco, or a 2003 Yamaha, they dont care and neither should the SCCA. Old machines dont make them look bad, crappy competition does.

>Also it is much cheaper to get into motorcross, and you
>don't have to close down a road to practice. America has way
>more trails and such to practice on than the Europeans too.

You make my point for me there. Sure it should cost more to rally than to motocross, but should the amount of dollars you spend to rally be a factor in how far you are let rise in the box/pyramid?

>there is really no right answer for this debate

I think there is a right answer, but I'm not telling. ;)
 

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>US is the most powerful motocross nation in the world by far
>and has been for 20+ years, why do you think that is? Its
>because thousands upon thousands of kids in the US can get a
>chance to race all over the country with the only obsticle
>to being the national champion, or world champion, their
>skills just like rally is in Finland. There is no governing
>body telling them that their bike is too old and is making
>them look bad so they have to buy a new one or no be a
>"pro".

Never see any of those kids on 20 year old bikes.........:p
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
Look, my point is not to debate the rules, the SCCA politics or Club or Pro, quite frankly, since I am not competing, I don't give a rats ass:+ I am not in a position to change that, but you as competitors/club members are.
What I am saying is that through increased top level participation by Manufacturers and top level privateers and through marketing the sport (which my understanding is Kurts vision)will increase the visibility of rallying. With increased visibility, potential sponsors will see value in putting money into a team. Only then will some of the financial burden be lifted from competitors, organizers, etc. Maybe even prize money. This will not happen overnight and not everyone will benefit. It may not happen at all, but you can be sure it won't happen if we ignore the top level of the sport. So Don't be so quick to dismiss the manufacturers and what Kurt have in mind (even though he may not be accomplishing it)Think outside of the box. Hopefully Rally America will do a better job of it.
I know other people agree with this, but I seem to have been hung out to dry. I am getting tired of banging my head against the wall since
as it stands, I don't even know if I will be a part of US Rallying next year. If you are happy with rallying being an obscure sport that no one knows about and you have to struggle financially to go to each event, feel free to ignore me, but when I was in Ireland there was 150 freshly painted nice cars with sponsors on them.
BTW Kurt is not my best friend, believe me he has done me no favorsx(
 

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The MIddle

Guys,

What is between the top and bottom of every box or pyramid? The middle!

People should start out because they like it, and move up because they're good. According to my roommate, who doesn't know anything but is right.

A guy driving some old, crappy 2wd car (and having a ton of fun) who gets in the top 15 would probably get just as much notice from teams looking for good drivers as a guy driving a WRX or Evo who gets in the top 3. The only problem is that the guy with the old 2wd car isn't allowed to compete in ProRally's current feeder series, ProRally.

Why don't we just call every ClubRally that is run in conjunction with a ProRally part of the ClubRally National Championship Series? Then we could require teams who run the ProRally Championship to enter all the events, run nice cars, look professional etc etc without cutting off the in-between guys, because there's and in-between series for them to play in with all the other in-betweeners.

Here's how I think it should be: "Hey, I could use Grandma's Volvo to start, but maybe I'd put up with driving a WRX/Evo when someone gives me one." :)

Think inside the box.

Will MacDonald
1968 Volvo 144

Edit: subject
ps. The Middle is a good song by Jimmy Eat World
 

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RE: The MIddle

The very base of the pyramid should be H Class.

Old cars for which there are no current speed/rally parts forces the builder / driver / owner to be involved, do some creative engineering, and learn about what it takes to make a rally car

Old cars with rude handling and inadequate power (by modern WevoRX standards) force drivers to learn to drive first, rather than later.

Old cars are certainly interesting. Let's see, the debate about WRX vs. Evo is one handles more like a FWD the other like a RWD...how many guys rallying those cars (or driving them on the street for that matter) really *underscored* understand and know what that means. On the other hand, a 96/99 looks and drives and sounds nothing like a 510 which sounds and drives and looks nothing like a 911 which is certainly not at all like a Cortina, etc... and none of those are like an MG, I'm sure. But they're all interesting.

Forget spec series, forget WevoRX's, and now Seed 1 drivers, in ClubRally, it only dilutes the experience for those of us learning the game. And for some, "forces" them into driving/car/financial circumstances beyond their abilities...sometimes with nasty results.

I'm not biased. Nope, not one bit.
 
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