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I was looking at the results of the "slippery" RAC (Network Q) rally. The top 10 non WRC cars are evenly split between the GpN cars and the 2wd 1600cc A6 junior cars.

I hope we can get Gp2/5 to this same level vs GpN here in the US.

Derek
 

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Last year when I was at the "Q" looking at the GTX that I bought, we went out to spectate and I saw the Xsara of Sebastion Loeb. The car looked every bit as fast as the WRC's. The main differance was the engine was running at 9500 rpm vs. 6500-7000 rpm! The s1600's look like a blast to drive! :>)


Bob Campbell
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BCR Rallysport
Colorado Springs, CO
 

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Good Morning America!
Yes, it is possible. A 2WD vehicle can be as competitive as AWD.
Only problem we have here in the States is that everyone thinks they have to have AWD. Difference between the two vehicles is that AWD has a higher cornering speed and will compensate for driving mistakes. With a 2WD you have to be cleaner and smoother in your driving style.
Colin McRae drove as a guest the 2WD Puma and out performed everyone in AWD's. Setting fastest stage times.

Whiplash RallyeSport

Corrections: Exit Speeds.
 

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>Well I know before the BRC allowed WRC cars the F2 cars
>almost always won outright, with the Gr. N cars behind them,
>so it's enitrely possible.
Alex, back then all GpA cars were banned, so you had the dubious comparison of 245-275 bhp F2 cars weighing 930kg with huge 290x32mm brakes, and very close 6 speed boxes with somewhere aroung 5:1 final drive ratios versus 32mm restrictor strangled turbo motors making about 265-280 bhp weighting 1275-1500kgs, maybe 280x25.4mm brakes and wide ratio trannies with aroung 3.6 to 3.0:1 overall final drive.


The S1600 cars make almost as
>much as the F2 cars back then anyway.
Wrong again Alex, the S1600 make a bit more HP than older _GpA_ 2 liter motors, but F2 allowed specifically the shît-canning of the stock intake and exhaust manifolds which under GpA must be stock.

The OEM intakes of nearly every 2 liter car went straight into the garbage can, and they all went to individual throttle bodies or butterflies so they could get some air into the motors.
On the exhaust side, the OEM cast iron manifolds which had to be retained were finally pitched and proper tubular headers could finally used to get that bigger gulp the intake allowed out.

A lot of it was driven by the need for an answer to the Opel Kadette GSI/Vauxhal Astra GTEs homologation special 2 liter with the Cosworth designed head, intake and exhaust which gave over 215 bhp in max GpA form.

So bad comparison.

F2 also allowd fender flares and independant rear suspension freer than GpA did.
>
>Thanks,
>Alex

Derek, you could rephrase it and say it like some guys I know who have done GpN : Have you looked at how slow they've made the GpN cars, S1600 cars are as fast!





John Vanlandingham
Seattle, WA. 98168

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat
 

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>Good Morning America!
>Yes, it is possible. A 2WD vehicle can be as competitive as
>AWD.
>Only problem we have here in the States is that everyone
>thinks they have to have AWD. Difference between the two
>vehicles is that AWD has a higher cornering speed and will
>compensate for driving mistakes.

Ray, I will see if I can find the quotes from folks talking about the '87 Thousand Lakes, an event which many people said was screwed up trying to meet the FISA reg, new for 1987, mandation an average speed of 100km/hr.
That year the used may more junctions, intersections etc, and people said "this has destroyed the normal fast flowing style of the and gives an enormous advantage to the 4wd machines"

See? Once you are up to speed, there's little difference, it is in the starts and the exits from_low speed corners_ where the 4wd have the easy advantage over 2wd cars. Exits. Not cornering.





With a 2WD you have to be
>cleaner and smoother in your driving style.
>Colin McRae drove as a guest the 2WD Puma and out performed
>everyone in AWD's. Setting fastest stage times.
>
>Whiplash RallyeSport





John Vanlandingham
Seattle, WA. 98168

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat
 

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What is fast? 23 minutes behind after 12 stages....Pretty slow to me
- F2s were much faster than best S1600s. The best cars had 285 HP. They even won overall on tarmac and Laukkanen & Kytolehto won rallies overall in the GB championship.
 

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>I hope we can get Gp2/5 to this same level vs GpN here in
>the US.
>
>Derek

Its just a matter of having a spare $100K laying around to get a Super 1600 vehicle.
x(

Wilson
 

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>Alex, back then all GpA cars were banned, so you had the
>dubious comparison of 245-275 bhp F2 cars weighing 930kg
>with huge 290x32mm brakes, and very close 6 speed boxes with
>somewhere aroung 5:1 final drive ratios versus 32mm
>restrictor strangled turbo motors making about 265-280 bhp
>weighting 1275-1500kgs, maybe 280x25.4mm brakes and wide
>ratio trannies with aroung 3.6 to 3.0:1 overall final drive.

The S1600s still have a better power-to-weight ratio than the Gr. N cars and have the 6 speed sequential gearbox. However, I did overestimate the power output. (I thought it was around 250, not 215)

>Wrong again Alex, the S1600 make a bit more HP than older
>_GpA_ 2 liter motors, but F2 allowed specifically the
>shît-canning of the stock intake and exhaust manifolds which
>under GpA must be stock.
>
>The OEM intakes of nearly every 2 liter car went straight
>into the garbage can, and they all went to individual
>throttle bodies or butterflies so they could get some air
>into the motors.
>On the exhaust side, the OEM cast iron manifolds which had
>to be retained were finally pitched and proper tubular
>headers could finally used to get that bigger gulp the
>intake allowed out.
>
>A lot of it was driven by the need for an answer to the Opel
>Kadette GSI/Vauxhal Astra GTEs homologation special 2 liter
>with the Cosworth designed head, intake and exhaust which
>gave over 215 bhp in max GpA form.
>
>So bad comparison.

Bad comparison comparing F2 to S1600? S1600s weigh a tad more and produce less power than the F2s as you stated. I was just harmlessly pointing out that a well prepared FWD car can beat a heavy Gr. N car and has done it before. I didn't mean to piss you off...

Thanks,
Alex
 

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>
>Bad comparison comparing F2 to S1600? S1600s weigh a tad
>more and produce less power than the F2s as you stated. I
>was just harmlessly pointing out that a well prepared FWD
>car can beat a heavy Gr. N car and has done it before. I
>didn't mean to piss you off...
>
>Thanks,
>Alex
Alex, I don't see how in any reasonable way you could imagine that I am pissed off, unless anytime anybody might flesh out, or fill in something for you, you think they're pissed off.

The devil is in the details, and the details are in the rules, and sometimes I think it is interesting to the guys here in Seattle when we can talk about the details of not so much the "THAT" of something but the more important "how" and "why".

There are big differences in the details of various specifications like the Gp1, Gp2,Gp4, and the old GpB, and the various revisions of the GpA and GpN, and knowing the details, and how they affect performance, is how you learn what is worthwhile to consider, and what things are silly.

So, got it? If I was mad at you, it would have to be for something you did to me, not for an opinion.

How are we supposed to learn, if somebody doesn't add the details and the nuances?





John Vanlandingham
Seattle, WA. 98168

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat
 
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