[Anders Green]

Question, what are the largest cash purses that have been offered in rally, in the US? (This is the USA forum.)

I'll break it down into two sections:

"Modern Rally", which I'll define as any time during the existence of the sanctioning bodies that are currently operating, so, since 2003.
"Before that", which I'll define as before 2003, although I'm sure a variety of smarty-pants euphemisms could be created.

I'm thinking total purse, of all winners. So, the MaxAttack! events, for example, were $5,000, even though the winner didn't get all of it.

Contingency money not included.

Who knows which events and how much?

Anders

 

[rally_master]

I am aware that back in the day, the pursue for overall winner at the 1998 ramada express international rally in laughlin, nevada was 5,000.

 

[jimmy]

Frontier Nevada 1980 was $5,000 for first. Don't remember what the rest were, but we got cash for 5th.......

http://www.rallyracingnews.com/scca/rally/news1380.html

http://www.rallyracingnews.com/scca/rally/nevada80.html

press on,

 

[Joe Average]

My father and I put on the Atlantic 200 in 1980, the last NARRA event ever run. I think the purse was $5000, but the prize money check was " In The Mail". Based on NARRA's motorsport/sponsor relationships at the time this was not a surprise. My dad paid the advertised prize fund out of his pocket. Bruno Kreibich and Jeff Becker won, maybe they remember how much 1st overall paid.
$5000 was a lot of money in 1980, you could still buy a new car, like a Ford Fiesta, or any econbox car for that. In todays money I'm going to guess it would be close to $20,000. I don't know of any events paying out more than a couple of hundred these days.

http://www.rallyracingnews.com/narra/atlan80.html

Sean Gallagher

 

[A1337STI]

Vermount sports car / subaru pays $7,000 for getting First place in super production class in a "modern" subaru

That's the biggest prize of heard of for the modern era ..
$1500 first place max attack is the 2nd biggest
$300 ish for first AWD bilstein / racetech prizes in the south west region

I think some of the bike/atv guys at Idaho got prizes worth over $300 as well.

 

[wvonkessler]

Heading back in the wayback machine, it looks like Laughlin had $10K in prizes the first year (1998) (Sprongls took home $6K for first), and $15K the second year (1999). Seems to me that the event may have gotten up to $25K before its demise.

 

[A1337STI]

hard to imagine an event with such a huge prize, went away.. but from the little I've heard it wasn't due to lack of finances

 

[TAZracing]

Gawd, that was the best race! Helicopters, Hopis, cheap rooms, In & Out Burger (latter days) 5 days in a row! Hey, that was a race that actually got sponsor interest! Never won the money, but sure had a ton of fun!

Heading back in the wayback machine, it looks like Laughlin had $10K in prizes the first year (1998) (Sprongls took home $6K for first), and $15K the second year (1999). Seems to me that the event may have gotten up to $25K before its demise.

 

[Seitzy]

I'm sorta amazed that any money is handed out for winning rallies. I thought it was just a hobby.

Yet another reason why I really want to start.

 

[GageGregory]

With $33,000 in car entree fees alone at rwv so far , one would figure you would have some sort of purse.. Hell I won $500 saturday night at a local dirt track racing somebody else's beater ass prelude , it cost us $100 to enter and we got that back just for making one lap in the main event..... Something needs to change.......... Rally is retard expensive. my two cents!

 

[EricW]

With $33,000 in car entree fees alone at rwv so far , one would figure you would have some sort of purse.. Hell I won $500 saturday night at a local dirt track racing somebody else's beater ass prelude , it cost us $100 to enter and we got that back just for making one lap in the main event..... Something needs to change.......... Rally is retard expensive. my two cents!

Gage, Anders have offered time and time again for someone to come visit him in Raleigh to sit down and go over the finances for one event if they feel that they are not getting what they paid for. If you put forth some effort and go visit him, you can see what the costs are to put on an event.

Only then can you sit back and understand that comparing a rally to a fixed-stadium roundy-round track is comparing apples-to-rocks.

 

[NissanGuru]

comparing a rally to a fixed-stadium roundy-round track is comparing apples-to-rocks.

Ugly rocks, with bad teeth and herpes.

 

[Mike Hurst]

2006 X Games (the only one with an actual stage rally), had a prize fund, don't recall the exact numbers for 2006, but later events were $100,000 with $40K-$50K to the winner, invitation only with no entry fee.

 

[Groff]

Gage, Anders have offered time and time again for someone to come visit him in Raleigh to sit down and go over the finances for one event if they feel that they are not getting what they paid for. If you put forth some effort and go visit him, you can see what the costs are to put on an event.

Only then can you sit back and understand that comparing a rally to a fixed-stadium roundy-round track is comparing apples-to-rocks.

why not just post it up? I'm sure people are curious, but not curious enough to spend a grand to go have a conversation with someone.

fixed stadium with roundy round tracks have fixed and variable costs, that are there day in and day out, like the mortgage for the land they sit on, and the electric water sewer etc. They have volunteers just the same as rally, they have local volunteer fire, EMS, police support expenses as well. When it comes down to the structure of the events, the things that really differentiate rally from a track is the land usage - privately owned by the track vs. public/private mixture in rally not generally owned by the rally organizers.

show the breakdown of the last event, hyperfest. $150 entry quickly became $175 when actually paid through paypal, ok, maybe I got the late fee? $25 reimbursable gate fee quickly became $25 non-reimbursable gate fee even though here are the exact words from the website "There is a $20 gate fee for EVERY. SINGLE. PERSON. Racers and volunteers will get refunds once inside." What were the expenses at that event to NASA RallySport? 25 entrants at minimum $150 = $3750, 200+ rides given at $5 is another $1000. No meals/alcohol like typical NASA, no fire/EMS/police support. So show the breakdown of that $5k, should be easier to show than a full blown rally like Sandblast.

Not trying to stir the pot, but I do think that there is room for improvement in the structure of these events.

back on topic, NYRC gives 30% of the top finishers prize money and must include at least one car from each category in that 30%. So if the first place open light car isn't in the top 30%, they still get money. How much, beats me, but my guess is that if you win the overall, you probably get your entry fee back at least. To me, coming in 1,2, or 3 and getting your entry fee back would satisfy me as a racer. I'm not looking for the prize fund to pay the fuel, lodging, crew, meals, car repairs, and everything else bills...though that would be awesome

 

[czwalga]

If you got the pass before you entered, you didn't have to pay. I think this was communicated on some of anders emails.


Hyperfest might be the one exception to the money thing, but i'm not sure. Road fees and insurance is the two biggest price points.

 

[Anders Green]

why not just post it up?

If people are "just curious" then honestly, I don't have time for that. Because I already know that if any particular event "makes" $500, there a 100% chance that someone will post "Well, there were 25 entrants, and the event made 500 dollars, how come the entry fees weren't $20 less?" Then if an event "loses" $500, the response is "Well, that's just an investment for next year, right?" And defending the line items gets ridiculous... "What, you paid $13 a head for the awards banquet? My brother knows a guy who could have done it for $11.50. You could have saved $375!" Yes, but the guy that WE used is the brother of the guy that helps us get road permissions. It basically comes down to there are generally good reasons for spending the money we do, but the time to explain it all and defend it online would take as much time as actually putting on an event!

So basically, if someone wants to come down and spend the time to LEARN about how rally budgets work, and understand the work that goes into the events, the financial risks taken by organizers... then I'm willing to show them the books to facilitate that learning. Posting everything on the internet just gets people all butt-hurt.

HyperFest. Yup, good news, while there's still expenses involved, it made money. Perhaps folks wonder where those free door backers come from every year, or maybe they don't. Perhaps people wonder why the NRS rally licenses still cost only $50 and not double or triple that... or maybe they don't. Or those nice digitally printed banners, like the one we had stolen at HyperFest, sure it's $100 for every banner, but, that's, like, comp'd, right? Anyway, all the money goes into the pool of stuff that makes rally better, and pays for things like, umbrella girl outfits. (Did you know they get more expensive the less material they have??? ) But the bottom line for HyperFest is that a bunch of people had two days of a good time for $150ish.

Not trying to stir the pot, but I do think that there is room for improvement in the structure of these events.

Everyone should know that Hollen has already (prior to and unrelated to this conversation) contacted me and offered to help with events. So he totally isn't just pot stirring and actively is working toward improving the events and is absolutely genuine in his sincerity.

As soon as you see rally organizers rollin' up with their fur lined coats, there's a problem. Until then...

But back to the topic, WHERE prize money comes from is a pretty good question. Philosophically I'm against prize funds that are created by using entry fees. The guys that win are generally financially better off, and thus can generally afford better/faster cars, hence that's why they won, then the rest of the field. So you essentially have all the poorer racers giving money to the richer racers. (Please note my use of "generally" and richER and poorER. I'm sure there have been exceptions before and will be again in the future, and the richer and poorer are relative to each other, I'm not claiming that any particular racers is "rich" or "poor" in an absolute sense. The statement is a generalization.)

Prize money coming from somewhere else, naturally I'm fine with that.

Also on topic, I thought some of the NARRA events said they had $25,000 or $50,000 back in the day? I thought I remembered something like that from Buffum's book.

Cheers,
Anders

 

[C_Eixen]

I think our maximum "Competitor organized" G2 prize funds were in the $6-800 range. Money came from competitors, sponsors (rally businesses), fans, and volunteers.

 

[sachilles]

back on topic, NYRC gives 30% of the top finishers prize money and must include at least one car from each category in that 30%. So if the first place open light car isn't in the top 30%, they still get money. How much, beats me, but my guess is that if you win the overall, you probably get your entry fee back at least. To me, coming in 1,2, or 3 and getting your entry fee back would satisfy me as a racer. I'm not looking for the prize fund to pay the fuel, lodging, crew, meals, car repairs, and everything else bills...though that would be awesome

Each check was $100 per team who earned one. FYI, there is no open lite for NYRC. While I feel that was quite generous, I'd wager that is a very small portion of the events overall budget. Based on the turn out of this past event, I can't imagine they came close to breaking even.

Circle tracks are a very different animal. Since you are in Burlington, take a quick drive to Thunder Road in Barre for their thursday night race series. It seats 8000+, gate is $10-15 per person. They meet capacity every week. That is $80,000 at least every week just from the gate. Last I checked pit passes were around $30 a head. While not exactly a cash cow, you have to see that it is an entirely different animal.

It costs us close to $2k to produce an autocross up here. Hillclimbs are well more than that. Those are minor undertakings relatively speaking.

 

[granthughes]

CHCA hill climbs have payouts, dollar amount depending upon revenues but all profits are paid out and details are shared with all members (club based org).
Prior to 2006 the rally class evenly split our purse. This resulted in $150-175 being paid to each entry. Cost to enter was $150 so it was essentially free. A few of the guys spending alot of money on their cars argued that the payout should reward speed rather than participation. So I thought too long and came up with a new system where 20% of prize fund went to 1st, 15% to 2nd, and 10% to 3rd. The remaining 55% is evenly paid to all entrants that started on race day (inclusive of top 3.) This results in $200-400 for taking 1-3 and 75-80 or so for everyone else.
Participation has been on a huge decline since with 2WD and AWD often being combined due to lack of entries in the class.

 

[Groff]

Good summary Anders. My curiosity statement could otherwise be stated as...throw out some examples of things rally organizers have to fund for every event and it may give everyone a better idea of what goes into each event to justify the costs - road use, banquet, insurance, marketing, whatever. There are obviously huge differences in cost between NASA, USRC/NYRC, and RA events but one would have to image that the general expense categories are roughly the same, throwing out the expenses that the NASA events experience at every event might help some people understand why the cost is different among leagues.

Let's just take a ROM on Sandblast and STPR, the last two major events in both series.
Sandblast early entry fees x entrants = 515x23 cars + 260x31motos = 11845+8060 = $19905
STPR early entry fees x entrants = $1400x66 = $92400

Am I really expected to believe it costs $72k more to run STPR over Sandblast? The total number of volunteers necessary, insurance req'd, and vehicles entered is comparable, granted Sandblast was a single day event with only 1 service location.

I'm ok with there being a reasonable profit for organizers to an event, they put in work, and while they may do it for the love, they should be rewarded...but not by some huge percentage of the entry fees. Anders, I appreciate you not wanting to raise entry fees to fund a prize money pool, many rally people do it for the love of the sport rather than the win, so paying to fund "richer" people's cars isn't really in most racer's interest, I've got a hard enough time making it to events just funding my own car let alone someone else's in a round about fashion.