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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I have been working for several weeks to create a one make class out-line for North America but in the end I do not think we are quite ready for that so I am creating Gp2+2 in its place. My hope is that one car make will become the clear must have car and thus in effect the class will be one make at some point, much as GpN has become for the rest of the world.

Basic Rule: 2wd, less than 2001cc's and more than 2000Lbs.

http://www.11tenths.com/gp22.html - for more rule details.

Gp2+2 is not nor will ever be a SCCA or CARS class - it is a class run by the members of the class.

More info to follow.

Derek
[email protected]
 

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"For each 12 month period each team is allowed 8 new tires at their 1st event and 4 new tires at each event after that."

Cool!! I've never used new tires before. Where do I pick them up?? :D
 

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>"For each 12 month period each team is allowed 8 new tires
>at their 1st event and 4 new tires at each event after
>that."
>
>Cool!! I've never used new tires before. Where do I pick
>them up?? :D
You could call JVAB Imports at 206 431 9696 and get new bead to bead remould Black Rockets which are all new except the Michelin rally casing they're moulded on.
Available in all Popular sizes at a fraction of Michelin prices, if enough of youse guys start ordering now, JVAB might just be able to be some sort of Grope2 sponsor.


Up the Group2 groupies!





John Vanlandingham
Seattle, WA. 98168

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat
 

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I'll be your ballast... Think about how fast we could do a tire change when those Black Rockets blow out... just kidding I'm sure there good tires.

-Mercer

Ned Flanders: Homer, we just hit something!
Homer: Ooooooh, I hope it was Flanders.
 

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those arn't considered re-treads? I thought those were not allowed... (seem to remember reading it in the rule book somewhere..)

Feel free to ignore me if I'm wrong...
 

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Well, I hadn't even thought about that. Maybe we should see if there is some dumb rule which would put a stop to this while somehow allowing the non DOT things that we all have been using since the around 1990.

considering that they are 100% new rubber from bead to bead, and the same process is used by this company, Galaxie in Sweden, Colway in the UK, and they are "E" marked as meeting all the rules for Road use according to the strenous and bureaucratic EEC regulatory non-sense, they ought to be OK here.

But stranger things have happened.

Let's just hope that this opportunity for _effectively new_ tires with exactly the characteristics AND price we privateers want won't be lost.



John Vanlandingham
Seattle, WA. 98168

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat
 

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Ok, Derek, do engine displacement modifiers apply, or is it simply 2 Litres, regardless of # of valves?
Maybe I could apply the displacement modifiers to the minimum weight? 1.2 (for 16V) x 2000# = 2400#

Ahhh.. nevermind, I'm in G5 anyway...
 

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>Ok, Derek, do engine displacement modifiers apply, or is it
>simply 2 Litres, regardless of # of valves?
>Maybe I could apply the displacement modifiers to the
>minimum weight? 1.2 (for 16V) x 2000# = 2400#
>
>Ahhh.. nevermind, I'm in G5 anyway...

KEVIN!!! Håll truten!
No, really displacement and compression ratio are the real things to control, and 2400cc as the SCCA does it is way too much an advantage over a 2000cc given all things equal.

Besides, the guys who want to do 16valve don't have such a huge inhereant advantge, and most can't source the rally nasty things to really make it advantageous. (Wanna guess who _can_?)

Look at the rest of the world and you see 1300cc, 1600cc, 2000cc and above 2000cc. Roughyly equal steps, and you know that everybody is at the class limit.
SCCA we have 1800cc Golfs (would the plural be GolVES?)(you know, one calf several calves, one half, several halves so one golf several Golves?) and overbored 2300 motors, almost 2400cc in the same class. 600cc is 33% of 1800, 400cc is 20% of 2000cc, a big difference.
Now typically the level of engine and trans mods in recent years in Gp2 and Gp5 have been pretty low relative to say the mid 90s, and some newcomers have suggested that there isn't much of a speed difference between the two, and I'll suggest that poor vehicle choice and low driving skills in the Big class and some OK driving in Gp2 have blured the situation, but we can't make rules to account for poor driving or prep.

As a long time agitator for the class I was pondering if we should ban aftermarket individual throttle plate fuel injector systems, and I don't know.
Allowing carbs ought to open the door to individual thottle body systems since there is a huge increase in what you can get into the motor thru carbs vs OEM intake manifolds, and aside from total intake valve area, the intake tract is the next big detirminant of max output in a Normal Aspirated motor.

Oh by the way, the original idea was called Formula 2000, to take effect in 2000. The big idea was comprehensibility, and hence marketability, and we might want to call it that so the the idea is in the name.
Formula or Group 2000.
2000cc
2000 lbs minimum
2 wheel drive
2 man crew

Geeze anybody can understand that.





John Vanlandingham
Seattle, WA. 98168

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
In Gp2squared, no mutiplication allowed it is 2000 cubic cm or less. This is not Gp2.

I looked at the rule book and could find no ban on retreads, I did that before I shipped a whole bunch Black Rockets over for my car.

In the end I think multi intake runners are OK as carbs give almost the same flow so the advantage is small. With pump gas I think the cars are limited to about 200 HP.

Derek
 

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Great idea guys. In fact, I would like to see at least part of this become the actual G2 class rules.

No rule against retreads as far as I know.

Somewhere it was suggested that things like nitrous could be used (the other thread, perhaps). Since it must fit into the existing G2 structure, I would think this wouldn't be allowed. In reality, I don't think it should be allowed anyway. C'mon...let's not ruin a good thing here.

No multipliers...In fact I am going to write the PRB on this one and see if they can make it happen for G2 in general. The current rule was written to include some car ages ago that is no longer even being contested by anyone. Let's get this one changed to fall in line with the rest of the world (and logic) before someone takes advantage and is then disallowed. It is absurd to think that a 2400cc 2valve engine is equal in rallying to a 2000cc 4valve engine.

Not sure what I think about individual throttle bodies. Since Webers are probably standard fare on a lot of rally cars, I would suppose that a TWM or similar induction should be allowed.

What type of pump gas? 93? 94? How do you test it? I think if you leave it to the SCCA rule of "must be street legal fuel," that would limit it to 100 octane and it is something that they are testing for anyway at the nationals...tho it does allow higher compression which makes more power which can lead to more expensive engine parts (rods, pistons, etc.) and more frequent service intervals.

Overall, it is a proven formula. 2000lb cars with 200 hp. It is the limit where things seem to stay together without unobtanium parts. I wish you luck and hope that the rulebook will soon take notice...at least with respect to the displacement shenanigans.

Lurch

PS...When I was running Golfs, it became apparent that there were some other very capable cars out there. I asked Bruce Weinman if we could start a CENDIV "all Golf/Rabbit" class, since there were something like 14 golfs running regularly in the CENDIV rallies...our own one-make series if you will. It would run under G2, but with more restrictions (lower final drive ok as long as it was in a stock box, etc.) I was told that it would be fine! Divisions can make up their own classes to fit into their own Clubrally structure as they see fit. So you sort of have a precedent to your aim...even though we never quite got this one off the ground.
 

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Lurch has a good point...if you want to get this thing off the ground, hit your local ClubRally Steward for a Club-only class in your Division. I'm sure he'll think it's a good idea, especially if the competitors pay for the trophies. Once your Division has a successful "sub-class" it will be easy to sell to other Divisions...and perhaps the PRB for national use in Gp2.

Until a bunch of cars actually compete, it's tough to establish a class...what you need is empirical evidence, not theories. So get a group together and go for it.

A couple of years ago, I was also persuaded that CenDiv needed a class for smaller displacement 4wd cars - like older Quattros - that couldn't compete against the latest Open cars. We established Group W for one season...the name is a long story...ask Arlo. The result was that two - count 'em - two cars competed in separate events...and one was actually two-wheel drive. I was dumb enough to pay for trophies...still have 'em...

Bruce
 

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Regional classes

>Lurch has a good point...if you want to get this thing off
>the ground, hit your local ClubRally Steward for a Club-only
>class in your Division. I'm sure he'll think it's a good
>idea, especially if the competitors pay for the trophies.

In SoPac our various regions adopted the CRS classes as regional rally classes. We took a LOT of heat from the PRD about it--he didn't feel we needed the CRS classes since the SCCA has already defined ClubRally classes. Come to think of it, oh, never mind. Fortunately, that debate has since subsided. My point is this: even though it's a good idea you may not get unanimous support. Don't give up.

[hr]

[p align=right]John Dillon
John @ WidgetRacing.com
www.WidgetRacing.com
 

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Interesting thread. A couple of years ago I was tossing around a Group V class in Ontario for VW Golfs and Jettas. I worked like this: each entrant was to ship his engine (complete with intake and exhaust) and transmission to one designated preparation shop (we had one that agreed to do the work). The entrant would be sent back a built, dynoed and sealed engine and rebuilt trans (not the same ones they shipped out). Beyond that, normal G2 preparation rules would apply.
 

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>Interesting thread. A couple of years ago I was tossing
>around a Group V class in Ontario for VW Golfs and Jettas. I
>worked like this: each entrant was to ship his engine
>(complete with intake and exhaust) and transmission to one
>designated preparation shop (we had one that agreed to do
>the work). The entrant would be sent back a built, dynoed
>and sealed engine and rebuilt trans (not the same ones they
>shipped out). Beyond that, normal G2 preparation rules would
>apply.
No this is not the spirit of the idea.
First, we want to limit unnecassary costs,and shipping engines around for simple rebuilds would add trucking charges for no good reason.
If some guy wants to buy Carillo rods in this class, that's his problem. The next guy may want to chance it with OEM rods and just ARP rod bolts, and even cast pistons.

See the idea is that you can do what you want and the fact that it is 2 wheel drive will reasonably limit the ADVANTAGE of way wacky engine mods, the NO SEQUENTIAL Shift means narrow powerbands which dictate more shifts becomes a liability.

Allowing free brakes for example will let guys be creative with off the shelf stuff like on Jon Nichols VW, big enough, only real GpA stuff bigger, and cheap. i.e. no poit at the power level of going much bigger than his set-up.

We thought sure why not 16v, it is getting to be that everything for the last 10years is 16 valves.

Second, the idea is we'll trust folk to make their own decisions and the self police. OEM block limitations and a seeming lack of knowledge of really hot mods and importantly, No Incentive will limit real silly shenanigans.

It just isn't that important to go thru all the dyno nonsense for cometiton which is all just for fun.

Unless _you_ yourself want to spend the dough.

But we're not looking for the last 1/2% of what is possible, more like shoot for 95% the performance at a fraction of the cost of like real F2 cars.





John Vanlandingham
Seattle, WA. 98168

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I am sure that there are some finer details that I am misunderstanding, but wouldn't this type of class be a good candidate for a restrictor? A restrictor is a power limiter, so an expensive high RPM motor won't make more power than a lower cost low RPM motor (the higher RPM motor gets a widerer power band -- torque falls fast, though).

Spending boatloads of money can still make a higher performance motor, but the gain per dollar is lessened after the 200 hp mark. The fancy gas gives a little boost, but restrictor keeps you from flowing enough air to see a huge benefit over pump gas, etc.

>>>edit
>
> In retrospect, the gas thing is a poor example. I was
> thinking of the increasing octane needs as induction
> gets better and more fuel-air is crammed into the cylinder.
> This ignores the obvious easy gains with higher compression
> and advance. A better example would be just thinking of
> what it takes to make a motor spin an extra 1000 RPM when
> the extra 1000 RPM is going to have the same HP output that
> you already had.
>
>>>


I am just trying to think of things that are cheap and easy to check. I am not a big fan of sealed motors, myself. I much prefer the, "You can port and polish to your hearts content, but the engine was already past the limit of the restrictor when you started," approach.

I have not done the calcs, but something around a 28mm restrictor will put the cap at around 200 HP, I think (could be closer to 26mm). Limiting the diffuser length to about a foot would keep things from getting silly, and is also easy to verify.

Flame away, anyway you can.

Matthew
 
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