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Banned
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80kph = 50mph

Can't see me in your mirrors?
I must be in front of you!
 

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400 flat to crest
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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
wanna be nit pickin'?

49.6mph.
The important question is : How do they manage to survive if it ain't all high speed?
Maybe they're not hard core enough, eh?



John Vanlandingham
Seattle, WA. 98168

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat!
Vive Le Groupe F!
 

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Mä meen vittu sinne!
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The point is, if they averaged 80 mph they wouldn't complain most likely. I averaged 49 mph on a rally on Colin McRae 2005 this morning and thought it was a blast.
 

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What is the average speed at Rally Finland? Or is that not considered a real Rally? I remember watching Rally Kenya and it completely sucked, watching these beautiful race cars having to use 4 low to get over these sheeety rock covered 4x4 trails. Did that show driver talent or how strong a manufacturer can build a race car? Being naive, I thought race car developement was for speed, agility, handling and power. If we all want to average 30 MPH, I think rock crawlers are affordable.
 

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Mä meen vittu sinne!
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I did some analysis for the WRC Finland from 2003. The first six stages averaged 126.22 km/hr or 78.43 mi/hr. The fastest stage in the first six was SS3 at and average of 145.46 km/hr or 90.38 mi/hr. Isn't 10000 Lakes many of the driver's favorite. Or do I just remember hearing that somewhere.

(Note: Total six : 90.34k, fastest time total: .71576 hr.
SS3 : 22.3 km, Markko Martin/Michael Park - .1533 hr (9m 12s))

They ran 3 again as stage 9 but a little shorter and Martin/Park averaged 83.X mi/hr. He must have hated it and thought it went totally against the whole spirit of rallying.
 

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Trogdor
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Did that show driver talent or how strong a
>manufacturer can build a race car? Being naive, I thought
>race car developement was for speed, agility, handling and
>power.

Being naive, I thought RALLY was about enduring.

I guess I was born 30 years too late?
 

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400 flat to crest
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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
>I did some analysis for the WRC Finland from 2003. The
>first six stages averaged 126.22 km/hr or 78.43 mi/hr. The
>fastest stage in the first six was SS3 at and average of
>145.46 km/hr or 90.38 mi/hr. Isn't 10000 Lakes many of the
>driver's favorite. Or do I just remember hearing that
>somewhere.
>
>(Note: Total six : 90.34k, fastest time total: .71576 hr.
> SS3 : 22.3 km, Markko Martin/Michael Park - .1533 hr
>(9m 12s))
>
>They ran 3 again as stage 9 but a little shorter and
>Martin/Park averaged 83.X mi/hr. He must have hated it and
>thought it went totally against the whole spirit of
>rallying.

Not to pop you guys from Colorados rather near to bursting bubble,
but the average speeds of the top WRC drivers in the top WRC cars is one thing, but similar speeds attainable by green rookies with 2 or 4 rallies under their belts in who knows what for equipment in the sue-happiest nation on earth, or Colin McRae Rally 2005 video game are another thing entirely.

Or maybe you guys ARE really the next big thing.





John Vanlandingham
Seattle, WA. 98168

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat!
Vive Le Groupe F!
 

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>Being naive, I thought race car developement was for speed, agility, handling and power.

Actually, race car development is about making the most of what the rules allow.
Developing gravel rally cars is about traction, traction, traction, traction.
Acceleration (torque, not power) is easy, even with a 12mm restrictor.

>If we all want to average 30 MPH, I think rock
>crawlers are affordable.

30mph is warp speed for rock crawlers. That's like on the rev limiter in fifth gear dood!
 

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Mä meen vittu sinne!
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<Yes 80!
<80 km/hr. or 48 mph.
<We're soooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo much better!>

I wouldn't compare US rallying to anything in the rest of the world. You were the one who did. I was just pointing out that just like we have rallies and stages that can average high speeds, so do they. You original post seemed to imply that all WRC events had low average speeds and that we are "so much better" because we can have faster speeds which is a falacy. We suck compared to the rest of the world. Which is precisely the reason why I would attend any rally school in the UK or Finland before I'd attend one in the US. Also why I'm applying to Oxford as my first choice for my PhD, as well as CU Medical School, University of Washington's School of Public Heath, and Minnesota School of Public Health. My choices all depend on rally.
 

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>I wouldn't compare US rallying to anything in the rest of
>the world. You were the one who did. I was just pointing
>out that just like we have rallies and stages that can
>average high speeds, so do they. You original post seemed
>to imply that all WRC events had low average speeds and that
>we are "so much better" because we can have faster speeds
>which is a falacy. We suck compared to the rest of the
>world.

This place is such a laugh a minute, I love it. So much reading between the lines goes on before clarification that comments about 1 fast stage quickly evolve into these hilarious 100+ comment bonanzas, which then spawn their own little spinoff "Whip 'em out" threads.

Let's see some real numbers!

-#1 country in the world for rallying, by some standard.
-# of rallies held in that country. Number of entries per rally.
-Average speed of entrants over all rallies. Standard deviation.
-Comparisons to US rallies.
-# of people who even care about this! A direction would sure be nice, but who will steer you there? 2 sanctioning bodies with no true national series? Why does it work so much better everywhere else? I mean, even a tad further north things seem a bit greener (nationally)! So many questions, but who has the answers! Anybody? Batman?

Oh SS.com, what would I do without you?

Patrick "Taking the train waaaaaay off the tracks, yet again!" McVeigh
 

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Mä meen vittu sinne!
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You may have just given me an idea for my Senior Statistics project! :) Though I wouldn't look at speeds and such as I don't think that speed averages are an important part of rallying. But # of rallies, series info, average entrant numbers, number of rally schools, cost of the schools, would all be interesting info. The really hard part would be using this ranking each variable to determine the countries "score".
 

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eating dust taking photos
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Because I can

So Sardinia was great ebcause it was tight, twisty, and had to have low speeds?

Seems King Carlos thinks thats not always a good thing "especially choosing some faster roads in some places" (quote taken from WRC.com when talking about the rally).
 

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400 flat to crest
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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
RE: Because I can

Kevvie,
nobody said it was great, but at least we know it was very likely _challenging_ if the 'best in the world' were averaging 80km/hr, challenging _relative_ to mashing the gas flat accross the scrub brush, and challenging when we see that some smaller 1.6 cars managed to make it pretty high up the leaderboard, that doesn't happen when it is flat and straight and huge turbo boost decides the highest gear a car can pull and courage or stupidity decides to leave it down.

All you boys from Colorado seem to be missing the point (or a number of points including the absurdity of telling people on a _discussion forum_ to "keep their opinions to themselves")

If people of only moderate skills, and that means everybody here, average very high speeds it doesn't mean they 'good', it means the roads are simple.
If just going flat out in a straight line is that exciting there are events on open roads that cater to that, I think there's one in Utah or Nevada.
And discussing whether the single stage at Cog was more or less dangerous than other _equally dangerous_ stages at other events misses the point entirely.
Routemasters have been choosing, and safety plans written and approved for stages that allow far too high average speeds to be reached by far too many inexperienced (and often thats young, but not always) people, and on top of being a bad choice for the saftey, it is bad for the _sporting nature_ of the event, as these fast roads are favorable in an overwhelming degree to very high HP cars. This prompts potential beginners to assume that to be competitive, they too much have a high dollar, high spec car.
Or not bother to enter.

Bad for the sport, bad for growth, potentially bad for the insurance but that's a different can of worms.

Now the fact that the total milage for the Cog event was way under the minimum for a National Championship event, that's been glossed over.


John Vanlandingham
Seattle, WA. 98168

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat!
Vive Le Groupe F!
 

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don't cut
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RE: Because I can

>Routemasters have been choosing, and safety plans written
>and approved for stages that allow far too high average
>speeds to be reached by far too many inexperienced
>
>Now the fact that the total milage for the Cog event was way
>under the minimum for a National Championship event, that's
>been glossed over.
>
>
>John Vanlandingham
>Seattle, WA. 98168

I think these two points explain the real problem, which is a lack of attainable roads in certain geographic areas. Not everyone is blessed with a plethora of tight, twisty, challenging mountain roads just minutes from town like you guys are in the PNW. There are groups of rallyists all over the country who want to race, but can't afford to truck all the way to the PNW, or Northern MN, or wherever. So, they find the best roads they can in their area, put as many together as they can find, or the gov't will allow, and put on a race. You can argue about it being a Pro event, but keep in mind that this is a NATIONAL championship, and therefore can't be limited to one or two geographic areas. We do the best we can with what we've got, and nobody is forcing anybody to go. If a guy is talking smack about fast he is at Cog, he'll get his commupance at OFPR or OTPR.

Every race has it's challenge. Snodrift has snow. Rim has waterbars. STPR has a nasty crown. Maine has choking dust. Ojibwe has thick trees. Cog has rocket fast speeds. Hmm....looks good to me. If you can win the championship here, it means you can run on anything. Except tarmac, which is a whole nuther argument... :)


BTW, where I live in North East WI the entire friggin area is layed in a mile square grid. "2000...90 left, 2000....90 right...caution cows inside...."


Dennis Martin
[email protected]
920-432-4845
 

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codriveur
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Why I Like American Rally

John,

I was told this weekend my reply on another thread was over the top and terse when I was really just aiming for playful and fustrated. If taken the wrong way I apologize. If you got it the way it was meant, good.

So, since this seems to be yet another thread about the same thing let me try again.

Instead of going off on a Kerryesque manifesto about what you do not like about American Rally give us what do you like. Buried in all the emotion and superflous detail it is not readily evident to me.

Let me start,

I LIKE... most of the people who race (commeraderie)... the organizers who suffer with the competitors who selfishly don't help the sport, locals who are status quo about road usage, and give their time, money, and selves in an effort to further the sport...SS and the enviroment that it created that has spawned a viable spec class and low cost rwd movement without no stinkin' sanctioning bodies (all about the people so far)... the fact Rally is thought of as the craiziest form of motorsport by just about everyone else in the U.S. who race anything (even though it's all about control,flow and pace)...it's a TEAM in the cockpit not just ego and technique...and most importantly the friend in the car and the friends who keep it together.

The stuff about notes vs tulips = evolution. Blind vs. Recce is about insurance premiums. Fast as you will and straight is a function of the terrain. 4WD blown monsters and the cars most can afford to run is about the error of mixing Pro and Amatuer on the same course. These are realities that cannot be worked out in a couple of weeks, months, or years on a message board. (not that it should not be discussed and tried but keep your shirts on) Instead of tearing down what do you want to seen built?

Parse away.

Bernie
 

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eating dust taking photos
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RE: Because I can

As someone who lectures people on their reading abilities you sure seem to have overlooked every single one of my posts in the threads about Cog.

I personally felt those stages were too straight, they were certainly challenging as the speeds and ruts forced a driver to really contemplate their speeds, confidence, car, and conditions thats not just what rally is about.


The shame is that nobody seems to make the point that in a true rally championship you need to challenge all facets of driver and car. You need tarmac, you need altitude, you need snow, you need ice, you need dirt, mud, gravel and sand. In my opinion being a rally driver means being able to display speed and control on ALL surfaces under ALL conditions.



Here is the problem. In CO the roads that are currently in a condition that would pass inspection for the main part fall under 1 or 2 categories, residential access or private property (most of the roads in a good enough condition to use are used by mines, in our own local hill climbing series we lost two events due to mining operations demanding the road 7 days a week).


You give me and excavation company to prepare the roads and a big enough lobby to get the road permits and I'll give you atleast 250 stage miles and under 500 transit miles of some of the twistiest, tightest, most technically demanding roads you'll see rallied on in the US. There will be tight roads with lots of hair pins, flowing roads with lots of sweepers, there will be many many many elevation changes, all aspects of driver skill short of ice and snow, ok maybe rain/mud depending on weather.





And if you bothered to read my posts you'd see that I never told anyone to not voice an opinion because they weren't there, but asked that people listen to the competitors that were there and then judge for themselves.


Everyone has an opinion and a right to express it, even you, but people that have never been there or seen what is being discussed should be more patient to listen and evaluate the opinions and comments of those that were there before they pass judgement.


Cog is turning into a real shame, with such a great organizing committee and so little actual competitor support it will probably wither away and die. There doesn't seem to be enough support from competitors outside of CO that support Cog for the event to grow and improve.


Whatever though John, the day I truly take to heart what you have to say because of how you say it will probably be the day before I die.



Edit to add:
Is the mileage comment based off of complete mileage or planned mileage as they did have to drop a stage because of mud making the road all but totally impassable. I'd look it up but I am not the one complaining about it.....
 
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