[Mark Larson]

We're considering two coefficient 3 ClubRallies with the Ojibwe Forests ProRally this year. While the response from ClubRally entrants has been very positive about the extra miles, some ProRally teams have asked us for a shorter rally.

Two C3's run a minimum of 130 stage miles. How come the ClubRally people are so supportive of that and not the ProRally people? Is it that we've only heard from those who think our rally is too long, and not from the silent majority who like it the way it is?

An option that may not even be possible is to provide extra stages for the ClubRally teams only. That requires more effort from our workers, and might have ramifications with insurance and road fees that make it impractical, but it has been suggested. It would allow the ClubRally teams to get in their jollies, and the ProRally teams to put forth minimum effort.

What do you think?

Mark Larson
2004 Ojibwe Forests Rallymaster

 

[jeff burmeister]

Hey Mark

I have to believe that you are hearing from a very small percentage of ProRally people. I can't think of any reason why anyone wouldn't want to do a 130 mile Rally.

As long as you can give us a couple more minutes for transits this year, I'll do as many miles as you can put on the scheudule. Way tight and scary on some of those transits through vacational residental. I absolutely hate telling a driver to "screw the speed limit, we aren't going to make it."

Jeff Burmeister
SpecialStage.com
The North American Rally Resource
http://www.SpecialStage.com

 

[Gravel Spray]

The longer the better, and even more so with Ojibwe.

Every driver I've talked with says the exact same thing as Jeff, transits are way tight.


peter

 

[jake himes]

>We're considering two coefficient 3 ClubRallies with the
>Ojibwe Forests ProRally this year. While the response from
>ClubRally entrants has been very positive about the extra
>miles, some ProRally teams have asked us for a shorter
>rally.
>
>Two C3's run a minimum of 130 stage miles. How come the
>ClubRally people are so supportive of that and not the
>ProRally people? Is it that we've only heard from those who
>think our rally is too long, and not from the silent
>majority who like it the way it is?


I have a hunch that nearly all club racers want the 2 C3s that you mentioned in the CENDIV post. Look at how quickly all the responses came back. I think that 15 or so teams that want the extra miles and their saying so very quickly is a good indication of what the club mood is.

I can only guess that the people who want it shorter are not having as much fun as they should

 

[Mark Larson]

>As long as you can give us a couple more minutes for
>transits this year, I'll do as many miles as you can put on
>the scheudule. Way tight and scary on some of those transits
>through vacational residental. I absolutely hate telling a
>driver to "screw the speed limit, we aren't going to make
>it."

Fair enough. Our transits have always been sufficient that you didn't have to speed, but not sufficient for you to tarry. That's because we can't use the roads until late in the day because of all the recreational traffic, and we don't want to have our workers out in the woods until sunrise. We need minimal, but safe, transit times.

That's all moot, now, because of the new rules. The operations manual tells us to calculate transit times at 10 mph below the speed limit, plus time allowance for stop signs, etc, plus 10 minutes. Bring a book to read. On the transit out to the woods you'll have at least 20 minutes to read before you check in.

Fortunately, the waiting-around time gives us more time to move the workers, so we've been able to shorten the service times considerably. The net result is that you'll spend more time sitting at ATCs, less time in service, and still get home in the wee hours.

 

[jblewis]

Also, Mark, how many of those complainers are still competing in 2004?

JBLewis

 

[mayhem83]

RE: A Kinder, Gentler ProRally (with a huge spin)

Sorry Mark, but with the spin you put on wanting shorter national rallies, do you think ANYONE in their right mind (obviously that doesn't include me) will publicly state they would like shorter, more compact events?

You say a silent majority wants the longer events. Exactly how have you determined it is a majority? Also, after what I posted in the CenDiv forum, we can hardly say they are silent! To say that the ProRally teams would only have to put forth a minimum effort is a little degrading.

My point is that those who attempt to run the entire national series on their own dime will appreciate anything that will help them reduce costs. Events that don't run excessive mileage over what is required will certainly help reduce costs. Call me a big sissy but that is how I feel.

I am all for doing what works best for everyone at a rally. The additional miles, whether they are Club only miles or for everyone will require more workers. In your original post, you imply that running only the club cars for the additional miles will require more effort from the workers than if everyone ran the extra miles. I don't see how that can be true.

However, let's assume it is true. You blasted the ProRally teams for not wanting to put forth more than the minimum effort required. Are the workers immune from the same statement? If the workers don't want to put in the effort you think will be required, lets have Friday be a C2, stay in one forest and reduce the workload on the workers!

Everyone please understand that I hold Mark in very high regard. His efforts last year were a MAJOR part of why LoL region won ClubRally Region of the Year. We are all lucky to have him. Mark and I just disagree on this issue. It isn't the first time and I won't assume it will be the last.

Sincerely,
Mark Utecht

 

[mayhem83]

>Also, Mark, how many of those complainers are still
>competing in 2004?
>
>JBLewis

At least one of the "complainers" is trying to find the money to compete in the entire series again. Let's try to steer clear of the negative connotations that requests to help control costs have seemed to bring up.

Mark Utecht

 

[mayhem83]

>I have a hunch that nearly all club racers want the 2 C3s
>that you mentioned in the CENDIV post. Look at how quickly
>all the responses came back. I think that 15 or so teams
>that want the extra miles and their saying so very quickly
>is a good indication of what the club mood is.

I agree 100% that the feelings of the ClubRally competitors is clear and justified.

>I can only guess that the people who want it shorter are not
>having as much fun as they should

Please help me have more fun without spending all the money I don't have.

Mark Utecht

 

[gplsek]

RE: A Kinder, Gentler ProRally (with a huge spin)

I am not sure people are complaing about the too many stage miles at events. From what I am hearing int he community is that some events time table is a bit tough, such as teams getting abck from the vening stages in the am hours and be in park expose or on their way to day 2 stages early am. Making it tough for all shorthanded teams and etc.

just a thought.

-george

 

[Lurch]

RE: A Kinder, Gentler ProRally (with a huge spin)

That's one of the things I kinda like about Ojibwe. The 4pm start on Sat. gives you time to recover from the long Friday night and still safely service the car properly.

 

[Mike Hurst]

That was then....this is now

Press On Regardless
SCCA PRO Rally Championship
Houghton, MI
October 26-28, 1984


Stages:34
Stage Miles: 269
Total Miles: 765
Starters: 67
Finishers: 33

I guess the cars, and everything else was cheaper then.

 

[John Vanlandingham]

RE: That was then....this is now

>Press On Regardless
>SCCA PRO Rally Championship
>Houghton, MI
>October 26-28, 1984
>
>
>Stages:34
>Stage Miles: 269
>Total Miles: 765
>Starters: 67
>Finishers: 33
>
>I guess the cars, and everything else was cheaper then.

And there were fewer big sissies. 8)





John Vanlandingham
Seattle, WA. 98168

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

Black Rocket Rally Tires
http://www.blackrockettires.com/

 

[Doug Woods]

RE: That was then....this is now

>Press On Regardless
>SCCA PRO Rally Championship
>Houghton, MI
>October 26-28, 1984
>
>Stages:34
>Stage Miles: 269
>Total Miles: 765
>Starters: 67
>Finishers: 33

How about:

Press On Regardless
WRC
Detroit, MI
1973

Stages: 85
Stage Miles: Can't remember
Total Miles: 1,700
Starters: 58
Finishers: 23
Winner's Stage Time: 6hr 58m

That's probably equivalent to about half of the current the SCCA Pro Rally Championship!

Doug Woods

 

[Mike Hurst]

RE: That was then....this is now

>And there were fewer big sissies. 8)

That's an inappropriate comment, considering the differnce in costs and speeds, compared with 1984,...or 1996.

Back then, it was endurance and speed, now it seems, it's all about speed.

Mark's big, but he sure ain't a sissy.

 

[Doug Woods]

RE: That was then....this is now

>That's an inappropriate comment, considering the differnce
>in costs and speeds, compared with 1984,...or 1996.
>
>Back then, it was endurance and speed, now it seems, it's
>all about speed.

Mike:

You are both correct and, possibly, incorrect.

Yes, now it's all about speed.

However, you would be incorrect to assume that Buffum (Audi Quattro) and Millen (Mazda RX-7 4WD) in 1984 were neither fast or costly. Speed not much different than today and costs, when translated into today's dollars, possibly very similar.

Doug Woods

 

[Mike Hurst]

RE: That was then....this is now

>However, you would be incorrect to assume that Buffum (Audi
>Quattro) and Millen (Mazda RX-7 4WD) in 1984 were neither
>fast or costly. Speed not much different than today and
>costs, when translated into today's dollars, possibly very
>similar.
>
>Doug Woods

I was there, I know they (Buffum & Millen) were fast, but if you compare then vs now, to run top 5 like Mark U., there's a hell of a difference.

Maybe this would be a good topic for a new thread, speeds then vs. now?.... from competitors still active who ran 20+ years ago.

Doug Shepherd?

 

[Mark Larson]

RE: A Kinder, Gentler ProRally (with a huge spin)

>Sorry Mark, but with the spin you put on wanting shorter
>national rallies, do you think ANYONE in their right mind
>(obviously that doesn't include me) will publicly state they
>would like shorter, more compact events?

Well, I have to admit I was poking a little fun. Don't you think it's funny that so many "club" guys ask for more miles, and some of the "pros" want fewer?

>You say a silent majority wants the longer events. Exactly
>how have you determined it is a majority? Also, after what
>I posted in the CenDiv forum, we can hardly say they are
>silent! To say that the ProRally teams would only have to
>put forth a minimum effort is a little degrading.

I believe I asked if there was a silent majority, and, yes, I was again poking fun at the idea that the "pros" wouldn't want as many miles. I know the effort it takes to run a ProRally, and respect that. But I'm not above a little cajoling to provoke a response, either! (I tend to do that, and maybe that's why I've never posted on SpecialStage before. Maybe that's why I make people at work cry, too.)

>My point is that those who attempt to run the entire
>national series on their own dime will appreciate anything
>that will help them reduce costs. Events that don't run
>excessive mileage over what is required will certainly help
>reduce costs. Call me a big sissy but that is how I feel.

Now, that's a good reason, though I doubt the few extra stage miles would raise the event costs by a significant percentage.

>I am all for doing what works best for everyone at a rally.
>The additional miles, whether they are Club only miles or
>for everyone will require more workers. In your original
>post, you imply that running only the club cars for the
>additional miles will require more effort from the workers
>than if everyone ran the extra miles. I don't see how that
>can be true.

I meant more worker effort than a C2.

>However, let's assume it is true. You blasted the ProRally
>teams for not wanting to put forth more than the minimum
>effort required. Are the workers immune from the same
>statement? If the workers don't want to put in the effort
>you think will be required, lets have Friday be a C2, stay
>in one forest and reduce the workload on the workers!

I'm willing to put forth the effort if the C3 is called for, and I bet our workers would be, too. I would be one more time they'd get to see the rally cars on the weekend.

>Everyone please understand that I hold Mark in very high
>regard. His efforts last year were a MAJOR part of why LoL
>region won ClubRally Region of the Year. We are all lucky
>to have him. Mark and I just disagree on this issue. It
>isn't the first time and I won't assume it will be the last.

Thanks, and don't take it personally. I just want to make sure I hear the answer from more competitors before we make our decision. Everyone should also understand that I asked Mark to run the 0 car at Headwaters this year because I respect his opinion, too.

 

[Mark Larson]

RE: A Kinder, Gentler ProRally (with a huge spin)

>I am not sure people are complaing about the too many stage
>miles at events. From what I am hearing int he community is
>that some events time table is a bit tough, such as teams
>getting abck from the vening stages in the am hours and be
>in park expose or on their way to day 2 stages early am.
>Making it tough for all shorthanded teams and etc.

Thanks, George. I don't think that's quite our case, because we can't start until 6 PM on Saturday, anyway. But with a 7 PM start on Friday, some of our workers were out until almost 3 AM last year. That's why we weren't as generous with transit times as some rallies.

 

[DaveHintz]

RE: A Kinder, Gentler ProRally (with a huge spin)

I agree that the transits should each have at least 5 additional minutes more than we when we ran Ojibwe in 2001 and 2002. I think 100 miles is enough, but 130 would be fine too.

The best way to reduce costs in ProRally is to eliminate the Group N4 class and make it into some sort of combined PGT thing. There are only 2 manufacturers globally that produce cars for this silly N4 class, and none of the homologated cars are available from dealers in the US. Parts are ridiculously expensive and rules are unecessarily cumbersome.

I plan to compete at Ojibwe, but I don't know if I'll run the ProRally this year because my Subaru is an Open class car and the only way to get contingency money with it is as a club-only entrant. The contingency money thing is nice from Subaru, but it is really strange that there's nothing for running Open class in ProRallies. It appears that Subaru wants Mitsubishis to take 1st overall for all non-snow Pro Rally events this year.

Dave
Car # 207