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Discussion Starter #1
WOW, pretty remarkable climb for Lagemann/Orr to go from 54th after day1 to finish 14th overall by end of day2 after the dreadful SS3 time due to a flat and slow 1/2 roll !

"What happened next was surely not in the plans. On a right-hand turn, the car suddenly spun and was put up on its side. It was quite slow. It wasn?t even able to get it up onto its roof, it just rolled onto the side and stopped, sighed Orr. It was not until about ten minutes later that some spectators suddenly appeared and helped push the car back down onto its four wheels. They continued on, and all in all lost a massive fourteen minutes during the ordeal."

Lagemann/Orr & Prodrive must have been overjoyed when that band of outlaw spectators escaped from the Designated Spectator Area and lent a hand to get them back into the rally, albeit 14 minutes in arrears. Sure glad SS3 finish control was not notified of these errant spectators and that the stage was not shut down as stated would happen in the Spectator Warning section ;)

AMAZING tie between O'Sullivan and Choiniere ... all that rallying, all the miles, all the stages and an identical 1:42:39 for both teams ! Paul certainly put on a good show for being a part-timer, but then again, it was in his "backyard" and I am sure he barely needs the notes in those woods :)

GpN ... impressive finish for the 2 "foreigners" to take the top 2 spots in the GpN category, Reynolds UK (6th OA) and Thomson CAN (9th OA)showing how it is done. Speaking of Canadians, McGeer certainly impressed once again and what happened with the Sprongl's ?

Impressive finishes II goes to P. Purcell finishing 15th OA in an EVO after campaigning that 2 wheel drive Euro Astra the last # of years. Nice ! Also, from reviewing the results, there were quite a few excellent drives by many teams that were fortunate enuff to have escaped the clutces of the brutal MFR backroads. Congrats !

Well, gotta run, just a few of my Sunday observations before more reports, stories, and info rolls in from those that were there and those in the know. Pass along your "stuff" and let us know who the heroes and zeroes were :7

Barry Wargula
 

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OOOOOhhhh nooooooo! Not another scandal from SubaProDrive
>"What happened next was surely not in the plans. On a
>right-hand turn,

It was not until about ten minutes later that
>some spectators suddenly appeared and helped push the car
>back down onto its four wheels.
>Lagemann/Orr & Prodrive must have been overjoyed when that
>band of outlaw spectators escaped from the Designated
>Spectator Area and lent a hand to get them back into the
>rally, albeit 14 minutes in arrears. Sure glad SS3 finish
>control was not notified of these errant spectators and that
>the stage was not shut down as stated would happen in the
>Spectator Warning section ;)
Jeeeeeeze, since the crew has openly admitted that they didn't follow the estabished procedures and immediately upon seeing the spectators not in their pens, and didn't display the red cross, and maybe to be sure turned on the 4 way flasher, taped the horn down, shot Very flares into the sky, blocked the road with their 3 triangles, and do everything in their power to assure the saftey of the spectators who could have a frighteningly high chance of being smooooshed, up to and includingif need be distarcting the speccies with the, for once very believable ploy of pointing in a random direction and shouting "look, a moose!" and conking them on the head with some of the handy, ROUNDISH rocks there in Maine, and then using the harnesses to "secure " the seccies while awaiting the Sherriff, or the PRD, so I think it is now the resposibility of the ProRallyDirector/Series Steward/Safety Dood etc to immediately throw the stage as it should have been done at the time.
Where were all the staff from Tulsa and Denver when this was NOT happening is what I want to know?
I mean _WHAT IS THE POINT_ to fly all those folks out if they aren't going to prove their worth by preventing dangerous lapses and in light of the tragedies which their presence were somehow supposed to prevent, penalize heavily those scofflaws who don't follow procedures?

>Maybe there should be a new rule clarifying how much the pentaly is for not stopping the stage when encountering spectators in OBVIOUSLY dangerous places (come on the Sub-a-rat had rolled onto its side, the speccies were milling around and it was how long? Lower seed, lower skill cars bearing down on the scene proven to be dangerous.....can you say Ka-boooom!)

Maybe there should be a new rule clarifying how much the pentalty will be when the SCCA staff doesn't do the job they were flown out at Organiser expense to do...
And thanks be to God in his infinate mercy that a bigger tragedy was prevented!


Did anybody see the moose?








John Vanlandingham
Seattle, WA. 98168

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

Black Rocket Rally Tires
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It's so hard to follow one of John's post, because I could construe his point in so many directions but:

We CAN'T have it both ways...

Do we have written policies and procedures for how spectators are supposed to safely assist competitors in regaining the road?

In all of my experiences there is a designee either assigned or self assigned, looking up the road to yell "CAR"! ensuring the spectator-helpers get clear of the potential impact...

Is it enough?

Can spectators leave their assigned location to move to another safely?

I think many of us have recognized the potential for this situation to occur, but have the implications been thought through?

I am glad there was someone to help get Ramana back on the road, as I was happy to have spectators help me right my car at LSPR (very similar soft one-sided roll).

HOWEVER: we can't have it both ways. To ensure the safety of the spectators and to ensure compliance with insurance requirements, and to ensure the future of our sport do we need a rule that bans assitance from spectators while on a hot stage?

Or would documented procedures be sufficient (Co-driver to direct and act as safety coordinator on-site)-- can anyone in the car really take on this level of responsibility? Think of your fellow competitors, think of car 81 -- could a crew in that mindset (either temporary or permanent mindset) be trusted to act rationally and with regard for the spectators first?

We'll if we ban assitance, Subaru, Mitsubishi and the Air Force could always hire Group N or PGT competitors to "follow" and assist when necassary. Hey, I might qualify for that job, sign me up, I'll carry extra tools, spares, tow ropes, and a siphen for fuel (or maybe the fuel check port could act as a transfer port). I'll run clean events to ensure your top drivers can rely on assitance from a fellow competitor!

We do have a conundrom don't we.

Just to be clear -- this is not bashing of any team, or any rule, or any person or group. It is a significant safety issue, that whether we like it or not needs to be thought out and rules need to be put in place to ensure we all know the proper procedure.

Time to put the thinking caps on and make sound recomendations for sorting out the details.

(I like the idea of Subaru, Mitsubishi, Air-force reseves etc hiring me to be drive a chase car...)

Rally-on,
Mike
 

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Bad Rules & Selective Enforcement

Edit: My comments are revised in light of posts #5 and #6 on this topic.


Mike,

SCCA National appears to be making-up rules as they go along. Sort of like general orders of the day. I suppose this might occassionally be a good thing. (The non-medical Red-Cross-To-Stop-a-Stage rule was really stupid and appears not to have been in force at Maine.)

Car #81 was upfront about what they did at Oregon Trail and SCCA National levied no punitive action. Now, in Maine, errant spectators were found on a hot stage outside the designated spectator areas, and neither the stage nor the rally were stopped. I hope this same courtesy is extended to all future ClubRallys.

Perhaps all these safety issues SCCA National has been so vocal about recently are not really issues at all.


Rich Smith

Vive le "Pro-le-Ralliat"
 

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RE: Bad Rules & Selective Enforcement

FYI,

At the driver's meeting, we were told that red crosses were to be used only for medical emergencies, nothing else. We were also told that the rule that went into effect at STPR regarding competators stopping stages due to "spectator hazards" was not in effect prior to Oregon Trail. In addition, we were also told that spectator marshalls, if they deemed spectators to be in a dangerous area, would display a special non medical "stop" sign. I didn't hear anything mentioning that competators were responsible for stopping stages for reasons other than a medical emergency.

Ramana
 

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RE: Bad Rules & Selective Enforcement

As a club entry, since we weren't required to attend the Friday driver's meeting, we were told that we would be given any important info from the meeting in writing on Saturday. We were given nothing, so we didn't consider ourselves to be obligated to the STPR rules.

--
JP Rowland jeremyrowland -at- mac.com
Co-driver, #896 Audi 4000 Quattro turbo, Open
Visit my boring web page: http://homepage.mac.com/jeremyrowland
 

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Discussion Starter #8
RE: Bad Rules & Selective Enforcement

PS. My original posting has gone on a tangent not intended ... I more or less "tongue-in-cheeked" the Lagemann scene (being a bit facetious about it too)coming from me being an experienced lifelong spectator who has aided a few unfortunate teams when middle of nowhere mishaps occur, not exactly all too happy with much of the tightening of the spectator freedoms, so in touting the impressive Lagemann run up thru the pack, I tried to slip in a little zinger about the current (goofy ?,IMO) spectating guidelines now put upon those of us with the bug spray, cigars, forest maps, and will to sit out in the remote boonies responsibly enjoying one of the greatest sports. But I begin to rant and digress. SO, I think this spectating issue has been posted, reposted, argued, reargued soooo many times that I really did not and do not want that the intent of my original post. I just wanted to hand out some kudos to some of the great drives & stories of the weekend, and stir the pot a little regarding news, views, and happenings from this weekends MFR. Lets hear some of the good, the not so good, and the unknown rather than spark another heated debate regarding spectators :). Just a thought ...

Barry Wargula
 

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Nothing bad to report of here. Everything ran smoothly (except for a hotshot spectator who deserved to have his car catch fire). Weather Friday was lousy. Saturday's weather (aside from the transit up Rt.26) was perfect. NO DUST!!!!!

Spectator areas were well put together. Of course stage 1 was a full spectator area. Saw the spectator areas on 5 & 8 also. At the beginning/end, there were long areas where people didn't have to pile in 5 or 6 deep. Everyone was at the tape. Ran into an empty spectator area about a mile in. 3 stragglers found their way onto the stage so I suggested they stay there. Didn't see the other area where the shuttle bus was going to.

Field was good. Would have liked to see Lawler & Sprongl show up though. DHiggins was kinda fast like usual. Great battle for 2nd. Car 81 stayed on course.

Very well run event. Gotta get Ted Goddard a teleprompter next time though.

Pete
 
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RE: Bad Rules & Selective Enforcement

Both those posts give me a good feeling that perhaps things are settling out and starting to make more sense.

Can common sense prevail in the SCCA? ;)

We shall see what the remainder of the season brings us.
 

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Ignorant calls re: Bad Rules & Selective Enforcement

Thanks for pointing out the facts Ramana. Your comments make it clear that folks who don't attend events would be better served asking someone who does before leaping to errant conclusions.

BTW - Is it OK if I break though all those women who mob you at rallies so we can finally meet in Bemidji later this month? ;)

Halley ...
Owner/Driver ProRally #86 - world's first New Beetle Rally Car
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I stayed to run the rallyX Sunday so just got back. I was fortunate enough to be invited to ride shotgun/codriver/radio dude in the 00 car with Don Taylor as my post tech worker position.

We were running the stage opening about an hour ahead of the cars so we didnt slow the starts at 7/10 which are longer and could take 30 or more minutes to transit/open. We had a few moments like when we came up on a pickup with 3 locals hualing butt the wrong way about half way thru stage 5. They said they came out of the woods (after the stage was set)..."Been heah all mo'nin', di'nt know no'thin' 'bout no race...". I think the stage captains and John/Ted did a great job getting marshals spread out and things settled and we had only minimal delays here and there (not counting the cleanup of the spectator Subaru that blocked the transit road from 7 to service for about an hour).

GREAT event as far as I am concerned.
 

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Great event, lots of fun, even with out ever seeing a stage road! Taking over "aquasock" for service was amusing, as were the $6 sandwiches (they confessed that on Monday the price would be $2.50!).

Our only frightening moment came in Service 4 on Sat when the car next to us was working on a strut. Apparently it was stuck in the compressed position, and an inexperienced service person went to take the top nut off without securing the spring. The spring perch went flying past me towards our car, but managed to nail our co-driver in the elbow. He was in a lot of pain, but had to leave anyway. We let it be for the most part, and the driver/owner was nice enough to come over to our table at the dinner to apologize. Safety in service counts too!

Alex
Service, Car 774
North Coast Rally Team
 

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Increased police presence at stage outlets and in spectator parking would reduce the amount of speeding -- by spectators and competitors both.

It is my opinion that there are not nearly enough cruisers around, and that those that are in the area shouldn't be wasting their time keeping folks from walking around in the woods, and trying to find a comfortable place to sit down and watch, et cetera. They should focus on nabbing some of the fscking headcases who are speeding on public roads.

(The spectator corner at MFR SS3 was a joke, but it had cops and banner tape everywhere. The end result was, in my opinion, needlessly restrictive and IN NO WAY safer than it had been in recent years. It was just more densely packed, with worse views, and fewer comfortable people. Meanwhile I saw three cruisers all weekend, over ~200 miles of transits... and two of them were just parked on the side of the road, empty.)

Given that the vast majority of the spectators who come to MFR each year seem to have some social or professional association with teams and/or crews and/or other people wearing wristbands, I think it would behoove us all to make it perfectly clear to our friends and families -- IN NO UNCERTAIN TERMS -- that speeding on public/transit roads is totally unacceptable. Like: punch-you-in-the-face-and-don't-come-back-to-the-hotel-tonight unacceptable. Because they're putting the whole rally at risk and wasting time and money that would be that would be better spent elsewhere. Like say: on pizza, and/or insurance.

Regarding that one putz who flipped and burned his daily driver coming out of SS7... that cost about 500 people an extra hour -- think about that. His 30 seconds of (abortive) gratification speeding out of a stage came at an aggregate cost of ~500 man-hours of pain-in-the-ass. And that's not even including the hundreds of other spectators who presumably got stuck up in the stage waiting for the ambulance and wrecker to clear the road. Never mind the consequences of wrecking your car with you and three of your buddies in it. Of course, I hope everybody's OK but regardless, somebody needs to read the driver involved the riot act.

-Isaac
 

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RE: spectators outside a pen can be a good thing...

concerning "spectators outside a pen can be a good thing..."
saw this today...

"An eyewitness saw the Lancer, driven by Roestenburg, fail to negotiate a tight left-hand bend on top of the hill.

"The car smashed into a bank, became airborne, leapt a fence and crashed into the paddock," he said.

"Fire broke out in the engine well almost immediately.

"A barely conscious Roestenburg told helpers where to locate a `stop the rally' warning red cross carried in the car."

The eyewitness, who did not want to be named, said several bystanders rushed to the accident and used an extinguisher from the rally car to douse the engine fire.

"It was so lucky they were there," he said. "

taken from:
http://www.stuff.co.nz/stuff/0,2106,2594899a11,00.html
rz
 
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