[Timmerman_Paul]

There was a story untold in these or any other pages, so I called
up a race offical on his cell phone and asked "What happened to get Drislane a DNF?". The answer is they got written up for 18 mph over the limit in a control zone by a peace officer, and the rest was history. Now,... you'r probably rearing back to fire one back that 18 mph isn't nuthin _or_ that all speeders should be casterated. I just did it for you so save it. Too bad John ruined a fine drive by making that simple mistake. They handed a nice third place to Mark Nelson, who appears to have really hung it out, and ended up with a podium finish. There are sure alot of ways to lose a rally, but this is one that is easy for teams to control. Two victims in two races, do you suppose there is someone fool enough to try speeding in Maine?

Paul Timmerman

 

[Gorgo]

Quite a weekend

This must've been a profitable weekend for law enforcement officers up here in the northeast. I got a ticket for 82 in a 65, a friend of mine coming up to see the event got a ticket for 71 in a 55 (he claims that he was passing a truck in a 65 zone and didn't see the sign at the top of the hill where it changed to 55, he just wanted to get past the truck before the 2 lanes merged back together), not a good weekend.

George Thompson
1982 Volvo 242 Performance Rally Toy

 

[RallyBrat]

Good drive? http://runnyegg.com/albums/album38/aab.avi

Well, on the bright side, at least he didn't kill anybody...

Anyway, he had a good run this weekend and it is a bit of a shame, but the competitors should know that and Wellsboro police are ALWAYS on patrol during STPR.(even I know that, but this was also my 10th year going to STPR...) I mean if your going to make the proper time and get to the time control on time, it's setup so you follow the speed limit. Still, it's a bit too much of a price to pay for speeding, although it does get the organizer's messege across.

Drislane seemed to play through attrition and work his way up. Ramana was running well when he didn't have problems and eventually dropped out, Choiniere seemed to be running well at times but had electronic troubles for ALL of the night and still finished 6th, several quick guys were out from the start, etc. Even Rhys was pretty slow this weekend (until the night stages) and had a good finish. Nelson had 2 nasty scares and finished 3rd, so definitely lots of attrition. If you look at the results, the only guys w/o problems were D. Higgins and Lovell, about 8 minutes ahead of everyone else.

Point is, he had a good drive, but had even better luck with the guys in front dropping out, except for the speeding ticket of course

Thanks,
Alex

 

[markn]

John put in a fantastic drive with only 1 big moment, and more than deserved the 3rd place finish. Hopefully he will start receiving more notice for his great drives. Look for more to come at Maine...

As for us, there was the nature encounter on SS3, then the RF tire delaminated on SS7 (tread completely separated and destroyed the alum. fender), then the LR tire delaminated on SS10. I know Karl was taken out by a tire delaminating, and I believe Ramana had this problem as well. John Drislane also had a RF tire starting to come apart after SS7. Delamination/Tread separation seemed to be a common problem probably due to the incredibly high speeds which overheated the tires.

The pace needed to run near the top is unbelievable; just look at how many cars broke the previous stage record on SS1 and SS2. Average speed record for SS1 is now over 70MPH!! Brushing banks and trees are no longer minor at these speeds.

-mark

PS - Alex, it was good talking with you and your dad at STPR. Sounds like the Eclipse is coming along!

 

[Andy M]

Yea, that 71 mph average speed on one stage was incredible. But it seems like those kinds of speeds are just going to widen the gap between faster cars and slower cars. On slower rallies, I think the slower cars have more of a chance if they have good drivers behind the wheel. I'm not sure if that's necessarily a bad thing... but still, it does mean that anything but awd cars will have a tough time on fast rallies.

 

[Steve Nielsen]

Is there any concern amoung competitors or organizers or Scca safefty people that the average speeds are too high on some stages.

 

[rally to cave]

I noticed the results showed his results with the note of disqualification. If John gets the speeding citation overturned in court, then would his result be re-instated?

The rule book allows the organizers to access a time penalty (20 mph would be 17.5 min penalty) or "in addition, for greater than 15 mph over the speed limit, the Event Steward may exclude competitors who are deemed to be operating in an unsafe manner." (8.2.A.4)

If the citation was 10 mph, then his DQ may not be warranted.

If the standard is any citation over 15 mph over the limit is deemed to be unsafe and results in DQ, then I would like to see it published in advance. Hmm...time to send a letter to the rule makers?

Paul Nelson
Navie

 

[Timmerman_Paul]

Alex,

Thanks for putting the videos up, and to our man [email protected] for
hosting them, the download speed is truely awesome.

Those spectators sure showed some quick footwork in the treetag.avi.
Perhaps they should not have been there, eh?

I noticed how Higgins8.avi showed the rear brake rotors glowing
while the fronts did not. I was somewhat confused by what I
was seeing. That would require ALOT of brake bias or much
different sizing of the brakes F/R. Both the Mitsu shots of
Mark and Rhys showed more even F/R rotor glow.

pt-

 

[John Vanlandingham]

>Is there any concern amoung competitors or organizers or
>Scca safefty people that the average speeds are too high on
>some stages.
Yeah, I think the averages on many stages are too high, way too high.

the winning cars on the on the WRC are often averaging around 90 km/hr excepting Sweden and Finland where it's higher and Corsica and Cyprus where it significantly lower.

Considering the general lack of experience and skill in driving and prep,(look at the number of DNFs, real "PRO" indeed!) the speeds are scary fast. What can be done, those are the way the roads are built.

And, IMHO, I really think that guys tend to like these simpler faster roads because they can then delude themselves into thinking they are approaching the speeds they see on TV. And then by extension the skill level. I have heard such drivel.
But get the cars on slower, twistier and rougher roads and then
THE HORROR! _Skill_ rears it's ugly head, can't have that!

Driving skill and some semblance of mechanical sympathy can't be what we want to show, can it?

ONE OBVIOUS SOLUTION is to make the events longer than the current little sprinty type things.

Thoughts?















John Vanlandingham

 

[daphne]

I heard it was 18 over, if that helps.

After what happened at Rim, is anyone shocked that the organizers would take a hard line on this?

Too bad, as John Drislane had an amazing run. I look forward to him kicking some butt in Maine this year!

 

[Bill Barfoot]

not a problem.. we are now at 100,000 hits in the last 4 days... things might be slower than normal...

 

[Bruce]

>If the standard is any citation over 15 mph over the limit
>is deemed to be unsafe and results in DQ, then I would like
>to see it published in advance. Hmm...time to send a letter
>to the rule makers?

If you run ClubRallies in Central Division, that's the standard. I can't think of a justification for greater than 15 mph over the limit. 20 mph over is felony speed in some states.

We may not consider speeding a big deal, but we have to remember that JUST ONE speeding ticket issued to a rally car might lose us an event. Ojibwe Forests just about lost the use of the City of Akeley because of where people were PARKED, fergoshsakes.

Bruce
CenDiv ClubRally Steward
OFPR Organizer

 

[Guest]

Mark and John did well because of attrition? They were both setting top 5 times through the whole rally, I think their finishing places were due to a bit more than attrition.

 

[RallyBrat]

Mark DID have a pretty nasty tap with a tree, and didn't seem to turn it up until the night stages. Of course, that's just from the narrow view of a spectator (a couple corners)

Drislane seemed much better than last year, but seemed to be sprinting on the straights, driving into the corner, then powering out. It can work quite well at STPR, but not as well at Maine. I may be completely wrong though, and wait to be proven otherwise at there

Anyone notice how similar Drislane seemed to be to Burke last year around this time? Same style, there's a Burke on the window, a TAD prepped EVO VI, Irishman, etc. In fact, I thought it was Burke the first 2 corners I was at.

Putting my hand-me-down flame suit on...

Thanks,
Alex

 

[nialld]

RE: 3rd Place lost due to Speeding? organisers message

dear brat

"it does get the organisers message across"
how do you figure that???

it seems to me the opposite is in fact true...
if you get caught speeding by the organisers...you get a very small time penalty...as in Mr Lovells case

however if you get caught by law enforcement you get thrown out of the rally...

to me that clearly states the opposite to your theory..

however you clearly have a problem with theory..

Drislane.. 2002 National Divisional Champion
1st o/v Sawmill 2002 (lets not get into that again)
1st o/v 2002 Sandhills Sandblast
1st o/v 2001 Irishhills
1st o/v 2001 Blackriver stages

why would you put such emphasis on the attrition...when referring to his result...
he ran stages 2/3 with no fans..and he got faster with each stage

in regards to your slight on his driving technique....

maybe you could give him a few lessons...
and post how many rallies and or championships you have won since you have been rallying..??? you have rallied i assume???

humble regards
niall d

 

[nialld]

hi paul

15 over from the horses mouth...
downhill section out of service..
5th gear no throttle...no speedo...
officer followed to get his speed...

the sad part is ....that a fellow competitor turned him in...
a big play to gain a spot for no reason....as this particular competitor did not make the podium...nor was he eligible for M/F
points....

regards
niall d

 

[randyzimmer]

expulsion victim support group needed

Niall,
I'm no expert but I've looked thru the book lately...
---http://www.scca.org/amateur/performance_rally/02rulebook/Article8.pdf
---
look at the heading 8.2 "other penalties", it states these are typical but not binding penalties, so a ticket is suggested to get you 1/2 way to expulsion. I didn't even get a ticket but suffered the same fate as John.
I'm glad Mark got something for his efforts but the magnitude is pretty small in comparison isn't it?
If you keep going to 8.5C, "unsportsmanlike conduct" (that is what I was charged with for crossing a double yellow line) you'll see that I engage in "reprehensible behavior" and am under threat of censure so I'll quit typing now.
rz

 

[RallyBrat]

RE: 3rd Place lost due to Speeding? organisers message

>dear brat
>
>"it does get the organisers message across"
>how do you figure that???

Brushes with the law make the area allowing the event to happen less likely to allow the event to happen in the future; therefore, organizers/SCCA use the maximum penalty while caught by law enforcement.

>it seems to me the opposite is in fact true...
>if you get caught speeding by the organisers...you get a
>very small time penalty...as in Mr Lovells case
>
>however if you get caught by law enforcement you get thrown
>out of the rally...
>
>to me that clearly states the opposite to your theory..
>
>however you clearly have a problem with theory..
>
>Drislane.. 2002 National Divisional Champion
> 1st o/v Sawmill 2002 (lets not get into that
>again)
> 1st o/v 2002 Sandhills Sandblast
> 1st o/v 2001 Irishhills
> 1st o/v 2001 Blackriver stages

I didn't actually say he was slow. His entries into corners looked slow and understeery, but he was very powerful on the exits and got on the power early (maybe a little too early where I was on 6) and made sure he was in good shape for the next straight. He also had the balls to keep his foot down and go at insane speeds. Also, he has one of the best cars that are running the Club Rally champ.

>why would you put such emphasis on the attrition...when
>referring to his result...
>he ran stages 2/3 with no fans..and he got faster with each
>stage

There was tons of attrition. Choiniere, Lagemann, M. Higgins, Burke, Scheible, Lawless, etc. were all out, and Millen seemed to be quite slow until night time. By the end of the night, he had Nelson, Shepard, and Kemp (possibly, but way inferior car) to compete with. That's 7 good drivers taken out of the equation. (Well, Drislane did look faster than Scheible, and I think he was, except for at night. Scheible always seems faster then) However, I was unaware of the fan problem and I'm not sure how possible it is to tell how much it effected him.

>maybe you could give him a few lessons...
>and post how many rallies and or championships you have won
>since you have been rallying..??? you have rallied i
>assume???

Of course none, just look at my D.O.B.! (If I was in the car, I wouldn't be able to make these observations) Anyway, I don't just enjoy watching rallying, I study it too, and I'm a bit too analytical for my good. Now, the person who brakes in less distance is the person who slows down sideways (you can dig in to dirt) the person who corners fastest is the person closest to a perfect 4 wheel drift and with the straightest and fastest line (look how straight Ramana and Lovell's wheels are at the entrence of the turn)). Now, what I saw from Drislane at 3 out 3 places this year and the previous rallies I've seen him in, in his EVO IV (I may be young, but I've been around for almost 10 years now ) it was mostly straight braking, a little wiggle, a little understeer coming into the turn, then lots of power coming out. While it seems improvment is coming in the future (he's much faster than last year and like I said, I saw Burke doing this a lot too until about STPR/Maine last year) I don't think he's as fast as Lagemann, D & M Higgins, Lovell, Burke, Millen, Choiniere, Shepard, Nelson, Hadjiminas, McGeough, Perry, O'Sullivan, Havas, etc. etc. YET. And remember, I'm only talking about corner entry and cornering speed here. He's definitely fast on the straights and always had the right gear selected for a powerful exit, no doubt. I also watch these tapes when I'm bored (now you must figure I'm bored quite often ) and study different people's driving styles and who's faster where, etc. It all fascinates me!

>humble regards
>niall d

Also, another Irish rallyist, McGeough, took me by storm this past Saturday. He came into some of those corners faster than what I thought was possible. For example, check out my clip of him on stage 3, amazing entry, although he doesn't have the correct gear on exit it seems. Still wicked fast, and finished 9th in a PGT Eclipse!

Thanks,
Alex

P.S. Just remember, these are my personal observations from the rally and rallies previous, if anyone else has other observations, I'd like to hear about them.

 

[daphne]

Bloody Murder, I say!

Randy, what would annoy you more? That John Drislane was DQed because of a traffic violation or if he had not been?

I don't know the whole story, just what was posted here. The rules say that anything over 15 can result in being DQed. So, the decision to DQ John has some foundation in the rules.

If another competitor turned John in, that's unfortunate. Rally used to be more of a community, but I guess the more cut-throat mentality is a predictable byproduct of more "professionalism" in the sport.

Didn't realize that Lovell got caught, and based on his penalty, I suspect he got caught at the O-control going 6 over. The rules do not suggest disqualificiation for 6 over...they do for 15 over.

John Drislane had an excellent run at STPR. I can't imagine how he feels having that taken away from him, but I'm sure it's no fun. Based on Niall's comments, it sounds like his speedo was toast, which has to make it all the more difficult.

BUT...how would you feel, Randy, if the story was out that John was caught speeding and nothing was done about it? Would you feel that you were being singled out and excluded from an event for no reason? I sure would!

Seems to me that Drislane's punishment at STPR was in line with Randy's at Rim. You can agree or disagree with how traffic violations are handled by organizers and the PRB, but you certainly can't complain about them not being consistent.

Note:My comments in no way pass judgement on the actions of other members of the rally community nor do they condone nor condem those of event organizers and/or the PRB. This post is based only on the limited information at hand regarding this incident.

 

[randyzimmer]

RE: Bloody Murder, I say!

Being able to see both sides...
My cruel side says I hope they throw everybody but me out sometime and I'll take 1st, 2nd and 3rd and drown in a champagne drunk but the realistic/fair side says that there has to be a mechanism to bring all the facts together and make a fair and just decision along with the ability to appeal that judgement, (back to the old thread, like road racing does). At the run-offs, all this is accelerated so that the winners can be announced at the banquet but at the run-offs EVERYBODY is there, not just the Manager, Chief Steward, tech guy and the event organizers. That being said, I know that after hundreds of miles of running at such stupid slow speeds, the hum of the tires told me the speed I was travelling. 20 was 2nd at an idle, 55 was 5th at an idle. I also know that the 1st 1/2 mile of each transit - even at my heightened paranoia level, was the most dangerous - getting back into slow mode, listening for new noises and getting the route instructions. So to recap, I'm glad I wasn't the only one ever, but don't think I was delt with fairly and don't know about John's full situation but it seems extreme.
rz