[MDBodnar]

It is time to share again. Lets define the issues.

1) Tell us what you want -- no need to design the system, but what is the goal.

2) Tell us what does not work -- no need to bash the system, just identify the obstacle(s)

3) Feel free to pontificate the virtues of what you like best.



My World:

1) My goals for myself: an affordable championship, soemthing a step above local clubrallies

My Goal for the series; Maximise participation at all events, minimize those participants left out

Expand the wealth of the series -- sponsors at a national level, event level, and team level

2) Obstacles: in Cen Div, no real obstacle: A Cen Div and A Super D championship will remain about the same.

Obstacles to Max Participation, minimize those left out: not enough events in the North East, no other area has a problem (yet).

Obsticles to expanding the wealth: Corporate America is slow to jump on the "hot new thing" that is 40 years old. Not enough good Marketing, not enough dollars to spend on good marketing, not enough national staffers to do good marketing, not enough cooperation with the rally community as a whole to do good marketing, not enough alignment in what good marketing might be (your idea is diffeent than mine, mine is good, yours is not so good...)

3) Pontificating: A 3 tier system makes sense, but does not change who, or how many can participate. A Super D system makes sense but does not change who or how many can participate.

A Super D system may encourage more participants at Club Rallies, knowing I can put together a 5-8 event season with something meaningful to win might encourage me to participate in a variety of events.

Designating a Super D Series might encourage organizers of national events to allow X number of Super D competitors (still eliminates the seed 8 guys).

Restricting the Super D series to a seed level/experience level might help determine who participates where -- I am going to get flamed on this comment :'(

Still need more clubrally organizers and events
Still need more clubrally organizers and events
Still need more clubrally organizers and events

Needed one more West coast national before RIM changed to club, now we need two.

Mike

 

[Jerry Brownell]

See my post #24 under George Plsek's thread. I think I made my opinions clear.

 

[MDBodnar]

Good Points in the other post. And I agree with the sentiment. Please note the below comments are directed at clarifications, not an attack and most are completely off topic.

I am with you: There was a time I thought I could be a top ten driver: 5th OA on Mandam on my first LSPR, 8th OA on the first stage of LSPR the next year, 15th midway through an LSPR before alternator woes, all in a normally aspirated Audi 4000. So running to be competitive in a national championship had a glimmer of reality for me. Today: no way, too much time, too much money, too many great cars with good drivers.

Do I back the SCCA and the changes made? RIM is the answer to that -- SCCA is the management and they lost one of the best pieces of the company. That screw-up was so easily avoidable it is pathetic, and basically impossible to overlook. It is completely beyond me why the management would want to alienate its volunteers instead of utilizing them like soldiers on the front line. We are already marching, just helps all go the same direction instead of blindfolding us.

For rules changes ect. the PRB is trying to act in the best interests of a rapidly growing sport. Yes at times people in "power" have been hijacked -- some, especially the newest power people (not the newest PRB people) will readily admit to being "put in a poor position." but they have learned quickly and I have seen a lot of black and white and a lot less grey.

I see lots of growing pains, but its not the third tier or the super-D that will solve them. It's not seperating the Manufacturers out either. The growth in the sport is, in my opinion, helping the sport. If the sport grows enough we may see viable local championships laddering into regional and national championships -- this is years and many hurdles away. In the short term events like Magnum Opus, Headwaters, Black Bear, The Dakota event, The LSPR ClubRallies, and a few more are great places to get seat time sharpen the skills and compete while saving pennies for improving equipment.


A couple of notes:

Gas -- only required for the manufacturers - 10.1.6.a
Gas -- Sunoco could be profiting by providing good fuel for reasonable prices, instead they overcharge for fuel I can buy at the pump cheaper -- a stupid set up for the competitors and the "sponsor" -- creates more bad will than good press. Just seems to be a piss poor relationship, and the manufacturers accept it because it is an easy way to police a potential advantage.


Pro Costs: just from one point of view, a professional event costs money. Competitors are still not paying even a tenth of what they should be paying to truely compensate the workers and organizers. And organizers of Pro Events only have a tenth of what they would like to have to produce a truely professional event.

Pro Costs = Insurance fees: part 9/11, part the increase of the number of "rally" folks in the SCCA (no thanks to the WRX owners here). Part of growing pains for the sport. The SCCA has actually done a good job of keeping club insurance costs down, I can't believe the actuaries believe the rookies are the group with less risk.

Pro Costs = Demand = Supply -- people are willing to pay, organizers are willing to take, if you can fill a field of 60 @ $1,000 apiece it makes organizing a lot easier. (And I am still waiting on my organizer paycheck...)

Comparing stage times to the top tier: you can do this as a club guy at any dual event, with the current seeding and starting system you could actually be first on the road as a club competitor if your the fastest after the reseed.

Non-dual events: my opionion is that there are a lot of people voting with their wallets. There is no reason for the fields at these events to fill up. The reality is that there are a lot of east coast entrants that enter between 1-3 events a year, 2 of which are Maine and STPR, it has been this way for many years.


Club Events: Cheaper to assemble, easier to assemble, potentially a better place to play because the event can be designed around the competitors and workers instead of the press stage, camera men, and awards-party. Also much easier to manage smaller fields than larger -- you want a good event plan it for 30 cars.

Stage Notes: I agree, no need, but everyone who has used them seems to like them, so it is an added expense, but one that many competitors seem fine with. Yes this was brought about by the manufacturers, but when the vast majority of competitors like to use them, you have to ask if it was the right thing to do. IN REALITY: someone is finally being paid for a huge part of the Organizers expense -- from a competitor stand point consider that you are finally being charged directly for part of the cost of the rally. Competitors should not complain about the pass through cost. Organizers on the other hand never got paid for the work ane now a private party is getting paid, maybe even making money.


Me I am looking forward to finding a garage here in Columbus so that I can get the Talon back on the road and hit all the events within driving and pocketbook distance.

See ya in the woods
Mike

 

[DaveHintz]

Mike,
Thanks for asking the question. I can't do justice to the entire subject with one brief response, but here are a couple of cents.

1) I think most rally racers in this country (I won't label them club or pro because they are all just people who like to compete and really don't need labels) want to be able to be published in the final overall results of a prorally. The various competitors have different goals. For some, finishing in the top half is a goal. For others, being top 2WD is a goal. Others want a podium finish or the overall win.

2) The National Club Rally Championship is a cool concept and it still has potential to become big. The Missouri location is promising. It might be a mistake to give-up on it.

3) Bruce Perry's specific 3 tier plan makes some sense and has quite a bit of support.

4) Super D was tried and failed, lets not go there again.

Flames anyone?
Dave

 

[GoetzingerMotorsports]

>For some, finishing in the top half is a goal. For others, being top 2WD is a goal. Others want a podium finish or the overall
>win.

No flames, but you forgot the "run at the back, have allot of fun, and finish the damned rally!"

>2) The National Club Rally Championship is a cool concept
>and it still has potential to become big. The Missouri
>location is promising. It might be a mistake to give-up on
>it.

I cannot stress enough how great the entire event is. I know that the CRNC was part of/independant of 100AW, but BOTH events are awesome. The location is great. The roads are incredible. The workers and organizers were wonderful. The townsfolk were great. 100AW is great all on it's own, but the CRNC was a BIG plus. I really think it took a great event and made it even better. I know that my SwDiv Gr2 "championship" was nearly honorary, since I was/am the ONLY Gr2 in SwDiv, but it did allow me the "illusion" of being special for a day at least! That is all this little, low-budget team can hope for...besides, I race a Blazer after all

>3) Bruce Perry's specific 3 tier plan makes some sense and
>has quite a bit of support.
>
From what I have heard/read, it sounds like a good idea to me.
>
>Flames anyone?
>Dave

 

[Bill Barfoot]

Jeeze Louise Mike.. get the heck outa my head!!!

You just said everything I was thinking, but I'm sure I would have screwed it up and sounded like an arse, where you were perfect...

so, "ditto to what he said, word for freakin word"

 

[Trevor Donison]

Super D as far as dividing the country into thirds is good. Its the way the points count that makes the difference. Whatever is developed needs to make sure that everyone competes head to head. Head to head competition is the most fun, and the most rewarding when you win.

Something will happen, its just the what, when and how that needs to be sorted out.

 

[DaveHintz]

Greg,
Yes there were several goals I forgot to mention! For example, some drivers just want to score some pro points and build their rally resume. Others want to try for a championship.

Trevor, For the Super D thing to be more successful than it was last time, it probably would need to have only 4 (or fewer) rally weekends that are part of any championship. In addition, I think the number of coefficients that count for any team would be best limited to 12. This would keep costs down, require head-to-head competition, and allow for a DNF without destroying all chances of a championship.
Dave

 

[Trevor Donison]

>Greg,
>Yes there were several goals I forgot to mention! For
>example, some drivers just want to score some pro points and
>build their rally resume. Others want to try for a
>championship.
>
>Trevor, For the Super D thing to be more successful than it
>was last time, it probably would need to have only 4 (or
>fewer) rally weekends that are part of any championship. In
>addition, I think the number of coefficients that count for
>any team would be best limited to 12. This would keep costs
>down, require head-to-head competition, and allow for a DNF
>without destroying all chances of a championship.
>Dave

What if I picked 12 coefficient one events that were only attended by a very few teams? This is the problem with Super D.

4 weekends is about what we might run in Clubrally already. It should be a little harder than your regional championship. It should require at least two long trips to be meaningful

 

[DaveHintz]

When I say 4 rally weekends only, I mean the same events on 4 specific rally weekends for everybody in the west. This means some travel would be required but it wouldn't be outrageously expensive. It also means none of this stuff of going off to some lightly attended event to score easy points. The qualifying events would need to be designated in advance (very few events should be championship material). I really think this is the only way Super D could become a big deal - otherwise why bother? Sticking with the CRNC is better than most alternatives.
Dave

p.s. Counting the best 12 coefficients (within those 4 weekends) simply means each team would be able to drop one or two lousy results. I doubt many (if any) coefficient 1 events would be designated with Super D status anyway.

 

[Lurch]

Here are a few points I think are important:

1) Take a look at the entry lists for the east coast rallies and the west coast rallies. East coast folks (generally) hit all the east coast rallies and none of the westies. West coast folks (generally)hit all of the west...you get the picture. It looks to me that the new middle championship is ALREADY MADE UP! The SCCA just needs to recognize it!

Many folks have the money to do the stuff on their side of the country. (I might as well do PA or NY since it is closer than my in-division MN.) Some divisions have a lot of rallies...some have none. I think it makes a lot more sense to have an East Coast Championship and a West Coast Championship (btw...look at...dare I say...AMA professional motocross. They have a National 250 class and a feeder 125 class that is divided up into east/west...ie, it has precedent.)

2) This middle tier could be like ClubRally with regards to no age limits, no course notes, etc., but would provide for a MEANINGFUL championship. Meaningful for competitors, organizers, AND potential sponsors. (Tell the guys at the office/potential sponsors/etc. you're CENDIV champion and they shrug their shoulders. Tell them you're East Coast champion and they may take notice.)

3) So who would run what? Well, like I said, it is nearly already decided for us. Obviously, Subaru, Hyundai, Mitsubishi, AVSport, a few TAD cars, Vermont Sports Car, and a handful of privateers with talent, machinery, and $ will run the true "Pro" series (much like they do now). The folks who run one half the series will do just that and be in the middle tier.

There was a time when you could win a national championship in some of the classes on 5 or 6 rallies. You can't do that anymore. That is a good thing. It IS a "national" championship afterall, right? But there needs to be something for the guy/gal who wants to go for a championship using the rallies nearest to him. Many times, the divisional schedule does not provide that opportunity.

4) Finally...I don't have an old rulebook here so I can't even tell for sure exactly what SuperD was. But the basic concept was similar to what we are proposing with a middle tier, I do know that much.

My observation is that the concept was introduced in a time when it was not necessary nor beneficial to the competitor. When SuperD was alive, I said "Why would I care about that? I can go for a NATIONAL championship by running 6 rallies for about the same amount of money and have the potential to be on TV (which, btw is a saleable item to potential sponsors) and its a lot more meaningful championship." At that time, however, the cost of running a national championship, even a FULL national championship, was not nearly as high.

Different plans work or don't work in different climates. Then it was a redundant championship. Heck, I got 2nd Central SuperD O2 CoDriver and didn't even know it till I got the extra label glued onto my Cendiv trophy. I think people would pay attention to it now. They want it.

There's my 3 cents and a bag of smelly fish.

Lurchipoo
Burmeister Rallysport

 

[Adrian Wintle]

Thanks Lurch;

That's about what I had in mind too. An eastern and a western championship that scored the ProRallies and select (Co.3?) ClubRallies.

I would suggest a scoring formula that allowed you to count the scores of about 70% of the qualifying events. This would recognize the fact that these are championships for amateurs who sometimes can't make events due to various reasons like vacation time, personal/family events, work (my problem this year) etc.

Adrian

 

[Bruce Perry]

EXACTLY!!!!!

Bruce Perry
#992 PGT/P4 Talon

 

[Brian Scott]

Regardless of what is done, it needs to be announced before the end of the year. This is usually when vacation schedules are turned in and plans are made for the following year. If something is announced in March or even after Sno*Drift it's too late.

Brian

 

[Bruce]

>>That's about what I had in mind too. An eastern and a
>western championship that scored the ProRallies and select
>(Co.3?) ClubRallies.
>

Sorry to be provincial about this, but just having an eastern and a western championship disenfranchises those in the middle. Further, the east and west would flourish, while the middle of the country would suffer small turnouts and no new events.

One thing that came to mind: Would you really want to count ProRally results in this new tier? Or would the attached ClubRallies be sufficient - assuming, for you east coasters, that they exist?

I'd be interested in suggestions for financing the new championship(s) too.

Bruce

 

[Jon Bogert]

The current National events would have to be an integral part of the middle level--whatever you call it. Since there's no current, planned or even imagined financial support from the SCCA, the organizers will still need the entry fees from the "second tier championship" ProRally teams.

 

[Lurch]

Okay Bruce,

I've heard this "disenfranchising the middle" argument from you for a while, now. Here's the facts. (Thanks to Ed et al at RRN)

2001 ProRally season-
East coast entrants: 116 (NY, MI, NJ, VT, PA, OH, MA, VA, IL, GA, NC, SC, DE, FL, TN, ME, MD)

West coast entrants: 40 (CA, WA, OR, AZ, NV)

"Middle" region: 16 (MN, WI, CO (this one could be West,but I gave you the benefit of the doubt), TX (ditto), OK)

But wait...There's more. I smoked my calculator for 2000, too.

2000 ProRally season-
East coast entrants: 114 (same states)

West coast entrants: 42 (same states)

Great Plains: 15

Furthermore, it seems to me that when Minnesotans are not running a full schedule, they tend to travel eastward before westward. Correct me if I'm wrong, brothers from MN.

I don't see it. You wanna talk about disenfranchised? How about the (at least) 20 rally teams from lower Michigan who have to travel to Bemidji (14 hours) to run an in-division rally when TN and PA are only 7-9 hours away? Why didn't I run Headwaters in the Golf? Too far to drive for too little seat time. Don't get me wrong...I love the event, but I thought the seat time elsewhere was worth more than a crack at a Cendiv trophy.

Look...It sucks. Somebody has to drive farther than somebody else for some events. How about those 2 in FL who have to go to ME for their East coast championship? Bummer. Look at the US map. The country, as I'm sure you know, is pretty darn big.

Don't dare me to get more scientific about this and punch up every entrant's hometown in Mapquest to see how far they are traveling to the events...I've spent too much time defending my position as it is.

Regards,
Lurch

PS...yes, I still love you... ya big ogre.;-)

EDIT- Oh yeah. Regarding your last statement--Not much to pay for since it runs along side the nationals.

 

[Lurch]

>The current National events would have to be an integral
>part of the middle level--whatever you call it. Since
>there's no current, planned or even imagined financial
>support from the SCCA, the organizers will still need the
>entry fees from the "second tier championship" ProRally
>teams.

Exactly. The top level Pro Rally entity can't exist without the entry fees from the middle level.

 

[saywhat]

I'm confused

Could someone explain why exactly there is a need for a "third tier".
Is it to promote traveling to a new event?
Is it because everyone is good and stomps the competition at the local club events?
Is it to promote various "club" regions mixing it up against each other like the run offs?
Is it to have another trophy?
Will it create new events?
Will it increase participation at exsisting events?
How many must enter in a class for the class to be scored?
Is there really a need?

Not trying to cause trouble rather trying to understand the motivation and what problems are being solved. The problem I see is time and money to run "Pro" and I'm not sure how another championship helps those lacking either or both. Thanks

 

[Over Exposure Racing]

RE: I'm confused

The way I see the third tier is as a level for those that have the time, money, and desire to travel across the country to compete against other like minded and skill level people in a larger variety of events than is offered by simply staying in their local region. There are a number of truley club type people who fit this description and depending upon where they live, they may only have 3 or 4 events in their area but a national club rally series (or perhaps something like the SuperD) would give them perhaps 10 events in a great variety of venues but they would be competing against other small personal operations rather than Prodrive etc.

THis other level wold also not have the restrictions (such as age limit and VIP) that the Pro level has. Finally this would allow the Pro level to truley become a Pro series with any and all the restrictions they want to have without interfereing with the Club.

At least that is how I see it.

Bradney A. Boli
Over Exposure Racing
Honda Accord #311