[jake himes]

Jeff Schu(sp?) brought up a good point in another thread. There are those of us that love the idea of Group F, those of us who don't. All the discussion is about the lack of 2wd competition.

What do you guys think it would take to pump more life into the P, G2, and G5 classes. It would be great to have fields of at least 15 or so in each class.

I know that there are a ton of answers out there, some of which are very obvious but the discussion is important. I also know that there will be a few new ideas to come of any substantive discussion.

 

[Doug Woods]

>What do you guys think it would take to pump more life into
>the P, G2, and G5 classes. It would be great to have fields
>of at least 15 or so in each class.
>
>I know that there are a ton of answers out there, some of
>which are very obvious but the discussion is important. I
>also know that there will be a few new ideas to come of any
>substantive discussion.

Jake:

Here is an excerpt from my post in another thread about the rules for the 2006 ProPicks competition:

"Finally, what to do about the three undersubscribed classes of Group 5, Group 2 and Production? Some data first. In 2005, at the 8 events, the average number of (National) cars entered, at each event, was G5 (2.25), G2 (1.375) and P (1.625). So, the average number of 2WD cars entered per event was 5.25 with a minumum of 2 at Cog and a maximum of 8 at Pikes Peak. Based on this data, I propose that we drop the G5, G2 and P classes in ProPicks and institue a new 2WD class composed of the former G5/G2/P cars (BTW, I think that RA should do this also, but that is another discussion ). For those who think that G5 cars will run away with the 2WD class, if we had had a 2WD class in 2005, the winners at the 8 rallies were G5 (5), G2 (1) and P (2)!"

So, my proposal is very simple. Run all of the 2WD cars in one class for 2006 and see what happens. Make adjustments, if necessary, after the season.

BTW, I would propose the same thing for AWD cars. Thus, two classes only, AWD and 2WD. Eventually, make the preparation rules for each class reasonably free (along the lines of what is now allowed in Group 2) so car costs are acceptable and the cars are loads of fun to drive and watch.

Doug Woods

 

[Dave Clark]

Get a huge sponsor that will pay start money to 2wd cars. I'm serious, that's what it's going to take. Almost by definition the people that are running 2wd cars are less well funded than the AWD teams. Usually much less well funded. Therefore they can't afford to run the national series. They run their local club events. 2wd is more popular at the regional level.

 

[PPMcrew]

Almost by
>definition the people that are running 2wd cars are less well
>funded than the AWD teams. Usually much less well funded.
>Therefore they can't afford to run the national series.

That is it right there.

 

[Eric Burmeister]

Some data first. In 2005,
>at the 8 events, the average number of (National) cars
>entered, at each event, was G5 (2.25), G2 (1.375) and P
>(1.625). So, the average number of 2WD cars entered per event
>was 5.25 with a minumum of 2 at Cog and a maximum of 8 at
>Pikes Peak. Based on this data, I propose that we drop the G5,
>G2 and P classes in ProPicks and institue a new 2WD class
>composed of the former G5/G2/P cars (BTW, I think that RA
>should do this also, but that is another discussion ). For
>those who think that G5 cars will run away with the 2WD class,
>if we had had a 2WD class in 2005, the winners at the 8
>rallies were G5 (5), G2 (1) and P (2)!"

You can never base future class decisions based on past turnout...with wild disregard for the rulebook concerning said cars.

As soon as you do this, everyone's P or G2 car becomes obsolete.

Classes go up and down regularly. Just a few years ago, G5 was on the brink of extinction and then Mopar came along and bolstered it. A certain SCCA high-up convinced Mazda to NOT build a G5 car in 2001 in favor of a G2 car because that "was going to be the top 2wd class next year." Then Dodge came with 2 nickels and a stick of gum (and 1, then 2, then 3 cars) and the class was suddenly ressurrected.

If you wanna combine the NA cars, I could see that. And that is what GroupF supposes to do...and I like it.

Then what of the turbo cars? Canada must've seen some possibilities, as they talk of adding G5. I see some possibilities, too, as nearly all the car companies are building the next generation of muscle car as a four-banger turbo (SRT-4, Cobalt SS (supercharged), Mazdaspeed3, GTI 1.8T, etc.)

There are lots of reasons you saw few 2wd cars running nationals this year. Some recooperating financially, some in perpetual development, etc. I suggest that you will see more next year, as Leon has already said he is running 2wd, I plan on running, and now Mark U has a V8.

Perhaps some of the guys in 2wd are running more for grins than ego and that has kept them from entering the nationals. I don't know.

I am looking forward to seeing what 06 has to offer, though.

And I have learned that when it comes to spending my sponsor's money, I have to get class commitments from sanctioning bodies in writing.

 

[JC_595]

We are going back to 2wd also. I have no ambition whatsoever to run National and pay the addtl entry fees that go along with it now. In order to run National again, it would take a written promise of TV time to approach potential sponsors with, verbal agreements with competitors within the class regarding class size & which rallies to attend, and serious budgetary considerations on my part.

We will be CENDIV Regional G2 or G5. And we will tear #### up. Watch yer back Jake. }(

JC
#595
www.gnimotorsports.com

 

[Eric Burmeister]

In order to run National again, it would take a
>written promise of TV time to approach potential sponsors
>with, verbal agreements with competitors within the class
>regarding class size & which rallies to attend, and serious
>budgetary considerations on my part.

Don't hold your breath for THAT! TV will (and should) show what's interesting. If you ain't interesting enough to get on the show, then don't expect to get on the show.

 

[mattjohnston]

>In order to run National again, it would take a
>>written promise of TV time to approach potential sponsors
>>with, verbal agreements with competitors within the class
>>regarding class size & which rallies to attend, and serious
>>budgetary considerations on my part.
>
>Don't hold your breath for THAT! TV will (and should) show
>what's interesting. If you ain't interesting enough to get on
>the show, then don't expect to get on the show.

Is this interesting?

http://mattjohnstonrally.com/matt/civicstage5.avi

Or are 2x repeat clips of PGT cars more interesting?

 

[rallytaff]

Why not expand on Doug's proposal slightly, 2wd n/a, 2wd turbo, 4wd n/a and 4wd turbo? Cut down on other prep costs, ie, no replacement of panels with non-metal products, parts must be obtained across the counter or from a junk yard not made or machined etc.

Fire away, 2wd rules!

Can't see me in your mirrors?
I must be in front of you!

 

[Eric Burmeister]

I get no video. Just audio. And a black screen isn't very interesting.

 

[derek]

The biggest waste of money I did last year was to enter the National at Oregon Trail.

Being in Washington there is no chance I will bother with a RA National campain, just look at a map to see the problem.

That said the classes are fairlly well supported at the local level and most of the time I have a number of cars to run against.

DKB

 

[mattjohnston]

>I get no video. Just audio. And a black screen isn't very
>interesting.

Bah! you need to install Divx.

 

[Rich Smith]

>"So, my proposal is very simple. Run all of the 2WD cars in one class for 2006 and see what happens. Make adjustments, if necessary, after the season."

>Doug Woods


I'm with Doug woods. One 2WD Class and let the results tell the story.

Rally needs to be in survival mode right now. Open competition is more important than splitting hairs and arguing about hardware.

Rich Smith

 

[JC_595]

hehehe... that doesnt read like I meant it to...

no, I mean promise of class coverage, no promise of covering ME. Jeesh, I've been pretty boring lately. I was was more interesting in the Golf I bet...

JC
#595
www.gnimotorsports.com

 

[bentmettle]

>Is this interesting?
>
>http://mattjohnstonrally.com/matt/civicstage5.avi
>
>Or are 2x repeat clips of PGT cars more interesting?


Funny me, I just kept turning left there

If we want people to be impressed with Group 2, we have gotta improve our driving.


***
Now, I don't care if I impress people with my driving, but I don't like knowing that I'm going too slow most of the time.

Spectators and the TV people don't care that the biggest problem I had at LSPR was the pre-amp between the intercom and video camera going out, but to me, that's a darn fine rally.

No one else knows that my co-driver's efforts have improved dramatically over the last 3 events, to the point where I've nearly stopped yelling at him (although being brothers, the yelling will never stop completely). Again, a huge gain for us, not interesting to anyone else.

So, it takes us about a year to where we can even lay enough base to start working on driving without fighting the car mechanically and dealing with driver/co-driver dynamics.

The vast majority of 2WD guys may not even be rallying enough, or long enough, to get to the point where they can concentrate on trying to drive the wheels off the car.

We've been pretty conservative trying to figure out what's going on, which is boring to watch.....now the next step is to make things speed up a little bit, figure that out, and repeat.

 

[2023maple]

Can someone please explain how combining all 2wd classes will increase the total number of 2wd entrants? 1+1 is still 2 isn't it?
I know this isn't the answer were looking for, but it just doesn't make sense as the answer to the original question.
Bryan

 

[Eric Burmeister]

And all those guys who had competitive G2 cars will suddenly think twice about entering if they have to run against turbo cars. Might be better to spend the time and money re-engineering their car with a turbo...they certainly won't be able to sell it to buy a turbo car, cuz it was just made obsolete and no one will buy.

 

[tifosi77]

Now and this is beating a dead horse believe me it is but you want more 2wd entries then just create a spec class/ spec series and no that is not what Production is. For example from my conversations with M-sport over the last few weeks the Fiesta ST is going like wild fire and they have already set it up to compete in 6 rounds fo the WRC and they are building regional championships everywhere (except here because well no Fiesta). It needs to be a new car and turn key but if you look at the Fiesta ST parts kit at 9k GBP it is worth every penny. You get a dogbox, ldsd, driveshafts, uprights, brake pads, ECU, brake lines, fuel lines, skid plates, recaro seats, roll cage, wiring loom, extinguisher system, Reiger suspension, modified rear member, and a few other odds and ends. Now that is approx. 17k but that is one hell of a parts kit, now I realize that for my idea to work the cost has to be less than that and based on other peoples responses to the "how muc hdid your car cost to build" most people spent 10-15k to get their car up and running. Now if you added the real cost of all the "free labor" that they put into it then yo ucan add a couple grand to the figure. Now that being said I would say that you have to have the basic car ready to run at 20k with a few add on bits like the fiesta st namely (roof vent options, hydraulic handbrake, kevlar underbody protection) essentially parts that are not going to win you a rally. The way to do this is if you have a spec series with one kit package and that only you can get people to sponsor the spec series and then subsidize the seats for example all the cars come with two choices of sparco seats you can then go and get the bigger break from Sparco as a series. Controlled tires you buy at the event everyone gets the same amounts of tires which would be included in your entry fee, once again because of uniformity it makes it easier to sell a spec series which I feel is vital to it's success. There are several platforms on sale in the US with cage kits and homologated parts: Civic, Focus, Yaris (coming any day now but on sale in canada), one of the new chevy platforms (it is the same as a homologated suzuki or opel but I cannot remember which one), suzuki swift. 2wd is exciting very exciting and I am not talking about sideways it is exciting because those guys are pushing and on the limit not because they do not care if they wreck their car but because to go fast you have to be on the limit constantly, not just the JWRC guys but watch all the civics and clio ragnottis that are running in the Finnish national championship. When you watch people on the limit it is exciting, because you can tell that somebody is pushing super super hard. The only place where they would suck would be at snodrift because of the no studs but the rest of the year I imagine they could surprise a pgt car or two. I have noticed that the suzukis in canada have done well and they are not world beaters, just have talented drivers. Instead of arguing on the internet we should use our collective energy to motivate the USRC and RA to get cracking on a spec class, you will be surprised at how many people will want to do it.

 

[mattjohnston]

RA Mentioned their desire to put together a spec class at the RA year end awards.

(IMO It would be a snoozer though here), unless there is something to WIN.

What do you win by winning a champ here? Not much, no-one cares. How many young guys want to win so bad they are willing to go 100% all the time? Like, 2?

Why are big one-makes like the new Fiesta WRC Champ (or the 206 super cup in the UK) going to be successfull (Or were successfull)? Becuase when you win it, you get a cool prize, and people take notice.

No-one takes notice here, and 90% of the drivers dont really care if they are noticed.

And ever since the beginning of every drivers career here in the states all you here is finish finish finish finish.

Finish = snoozer

Win win win win at all costs = exciting!

 

[Adrian Wintle]

>one of the new
>chevy platforms (it is the same as a homologated suzuki or
>opel but I cannot remember which one),

Aveo - same as the Suzuki Swift+ (the same cars Frank Sprongl and Bill Bacon are driving in the CARS championship)

It began life as a Daewoo (I think)

Adrian