[KevinG5Hahn]

So Rally Colorado marked the end of the first year of the Colorado Rally Cup.

We certainly learned a lot. We tried a lot of things, some of them worked, some of them didn't.

We have a list of changes and tweaks for 2009 as well as some very exciting things that I am working on for you guys.

But this is a competitor focused and driven championship. We need you guys and your thoughts to make this better. Here is your chance to say whatever you want, no hard feelings feedback.

So what did you like? What didn't you like? What would you do differently? What would you like to change or add?

Not everything will be implemented but we'd like to see what you, the competitors, have to say. The flame suites are on, so have at it.

 

[rallydave]

Kevin,

You would look so much better in a flame suit than a flame suite. And suites are so big and heavy and hard to drag around

 

[flight120]

Much more protective though, wouldn't you think?

 

[Miotch]

-Check the schedule again and make sure you're not backing up events per weekend.
-Coordinate the shedule around the USRC so I can play next year (tall order but worth a shot). I have a feeling I'm not the only one who is going to chase the USRC from Colorado.
-No-Frill entry for regionals only but those who want to compete for national standing should be scored with the CRC regardless of frills situation. This will allow more Cup support from teams such as the Conleys who will run National anyway and probably would like to do both. However, no random National competitors are allows to score points in the CRC against CRC drivers. However, this would make scoring difficult for the year end.
-Maybe a USRC tie-in like the CRS... Maybe.

Congrats on a good year. I think things went really well for its first year. More funding should help make it a better year. More mid-season trophies/prizes would be cool should the budget allow.

 

[Miotch]

Much more protective though, wouldn't you think?

It would depend on how many exits are available.

 

[KevinG5Hahn]

-No-Frill entry for regionals only but those who want to compete for national standing should be scored with the CRC regardless of frills situation. This will allow more Cup support from teams such as the Conleys who will run National anyway and probably would like to do both. However, no random National competitors are allows to score points in the CRC against CRC drivers. However, this would make scoring difficult for the year end.

This is how it worked this year. It seems that a lot of teams didn't realize this?

 

[sleonard]

here's what I think:

- more stage rally events included - add Idaho Rally to the CRC
- don't include the pure hp hillclimbs - Monarch, GC
- OR more points for the rally stage-like hc's - Temple, Buena Vista, Grand Junction
- and/or option to drop or not attend an event.
- no back-to-back events - lots of people didn't go to the last HC because they needed the time or resources to prep for RC.
-what about an event at CORE? how about a Time Attack? cumulative of fastest time each way around... or most laps in 24 minutes.


overall, I thought it was a great series. it kept the racing interesting, it turned the CO rally scene into a viable media product that can be sponsored and used to drive business to sponsors and hopefully sponsors to teams.

it was disappointing how attendance dropped off after the first two events, but the turn out at COG was good.

good job Kevin, Erika, Steve, Brian, Grant and Mitch.

Scott

 

[DaveK]

All in all, I thought it was a great year, though I'm sure we all wished more teams had made it out to more events (myself included). Just a few general thoughts based on what I've seen from other groups I've run with.

End of year attendance bonus: Should we keep this? If you make it to all the events, you'll be awarded with the potential to score more points, both from finishing position and individual event entry bonus points. I don't think the bonus points made a difference in drivers standings but it might have in co-drivers...but I haven't looked closely.

Missed Events: not sure how to implement this one, but some series allow you to drop a low score or missed event or two. Obviously that's a bit difficult to score when you have some events worth 3x the number of points. I'm sure the chances of having a season that doesn't have any overlap/competing dates with other events is nearly impossible though it would be nice. I thought a few poeple effectively dropped out of the series once they had to miss one event because they knew they couldn't catch back up in the points race. This might encourage those of us with scheduling conflicts to keep at it.

Getting attendance up: If one of the goals of the series is trying to promote what we do to the newer folks, attendance at the rally-x is a good way to drum up interest in a group that's already predisposed to spending money on this silly habit. Might re-evaluating the points system for three different events types potentially encourage higher attendance rates across the board? Seems to me that attedance rates at the hillclimbs declined significantly after Temple Canyon, and we had quite a high turnout at Rally Colorado. The rally-x events were mixed, with great turnout at one, and nearly nobody attending the second one.

Pikes Peak: you guys knew I'd throw this one in there. Its a hillclimb just like the others, but does require more time off work. Some say its just too expensive to enter, but based on info I got from someone on the coloradohillclimb forum, if we approach the organizers, there's a potential for quite a good volume entry discount, as they set a precedent with the Vintage car class. In addition, this event gets a fair bit more exposure than the other hillclimbs, making sponsor hunting easier than normal.

Dave

 

[DaveK]

- more stage rally events included - add Idaho Rally to the CRC

If you want to run in a regional rally series, nobody's stopping you. Of course, if it makes sense for the organizers to progress from the CRC to a "Rocky Mountain Region Cup," then by all means. We skipped Idaho because of the conflict with PPIHC. Would it make sense to include an out of state event in the Colorado Rally Cup when 1/2 the cometitors are taking part in the oldest 'rally' event in the state?

- OR more points for the rally stage-like hc's - Temple, Buena Vista, Grand Junction

Interesting thought.

- no back-to-back events - lots of people didn't go to the last HC because they needed the time or resources to prep for RC.

Alot of people also skipped the 2nd rally-x, Gold Camp I, and Lands End too, and only 3 or 4 entries at each event could be attributed to another event going on. Something else is driving the low attendance, and its probably just lack of disposable income.

-what about an event at CORE? how about a Time Attack? cumulative of fastest time each way around... or most laps in 24 minutes.

That's a great idea! Hopefully CORE is still around next year. Could we possibly tie this event in with a rally-x so that instead of having stage rally cars come out to run a rally-x, we'd really be putting on a show for the new guys.

Dave

 

[granthughes]

My thoughts:
1. I'd like to see the CRC include more stage rallies, but in Colorado. I don't think Idaho should be included in a Colorado based series. Though I do think everyone should be trying to get out to that event.

2. I'm really mixed on the hill climbs. I almost want to say score Temple Canyon, BV, and Land's End. Maybe have a point bonus for attending GC and Monarch, but at those two events, almost 100% of the time you can order the finishers in the rally class by the horsepower of their cars, which isn't exactly fair competition. I'm not a better driver than Scott, but I beat him at Gold Camp thanks to the additional power I have.

3. I like the bonus for attending all events. It was meant as a motivator, and I believe it did change a little bit of stuff in the codriver points. Though I think if we did like I mention above about GC and Monarch bonuses, I'd say eliminate the all event bonus.

4. Ignore other series schedules. Sorry, but it's the truth.

5. There was an invitation to include one of the SCCA Time Trials events into the schedule. None of their dates worked except the end of October, but we wanted Cog to be the final round so that didn't work. I personally think it's a good idea as it's a different surface and provides exposure to a different crowd of people and I'd like to hear opinions on that as well.

6. I'm all for an event at CORE if people will actually show up. I also think we should keep at least one rallycross in the schedule, but maybe consider combining a rallysprint run on the same weekend as a rallycross and just hope the wind's not blowing the wrong way. The dust clouds could potentially cause real issues.

7. DNF and DNS rules need clarified/refined for each event type. Even if I DNF'd on the first stage at Cog I'd have gotten 2nd place and the full amount of points for 2nd place.

8. A better website needs developed. It was quick, but is quite rudimentary. Not to mention I have pretty much no graphic design skills.

9. We need a winter snow rally in Leadville or somewhere else that's fairly close to the front range.

 

[sleonard]

If you want to run in a regional rally series, nobody's stopping you. Of course, if it makes sense for the organizers to progress from the CRC to a "Rocky Mountain Region Cup," then by all means. We skipped Idaho because of the conflict with PPIHC. Would it make sense to include an out of state event in the Colorado Rally Cup when 1/2 the cometitors are taking part in the oldest 'rally' event in the state?


Interesting thought.


Alot of people also skipped the 2nd rally-x, Gold Camp I, and Lands End too, and only 3 or 4 entries at each event could be attributed to another event going on. Something else is driving the low attendance, and its probably just lack of disposable income.


That's a great idea! Hopefully CORE is still around next year. Could we possibly tie this event in with a rally-x so that instead of having stage rally cars come out to run a rally-x, we'd really be putting on a show for the new guys.

Dave

I know you like hillclimbs, but it's a rally championship. there's already a hc championship. rallying is a lot different than hillclimbing and I think the CRC needs to have more rallies. I think it's more likely to get the crew to mobilize en masse to go run Idaho than it is to get more PPIHC involvement - none of the gp2 cars will do PPIHC, nor will most of the AWD guys. every person I talked to last summer with a rally car wanted to run Idaho. if we could bring Jens 15 teams like we brought to RC, we might get a better entry fee or perhaps there could be a tow fund from the sponsor purse.

I know PPIHC is high profile and gets sponsors to sign up, but the competition at Temple Canyon was stiffer than at PPIHC. I'm more impressed by how Dave crushed the LE and GC records than how he mopped up at PPIHC.

I'd like to see less hill climbs in the CRC and more rallies and the most realistic way to add a proper stage rally is Idaho.

I totally agree about the rallycross participation - it should be mandatory.

 

[Miotch]

This is how it worked this year. It seems that a lot of teams didn't realize this?

OOOOHHHHHHHHHHHHHH! Thats cool. I thought the latter (ladder?).

There isn't really much I'd **** with. You guys did a good job.

 

[sleonard]

OOOOHHHHHHHHHHHHHH! Thats cool. I thought the latter (ladder?).

There isn't really much I'd **** with. You guys did a good job.

latter.

 

[Miotch]

I agree with Scott. I think the option to drop one event would be sweet or a make up event. It should still work as an incentive because you can still improve if you do shitty at say... Monarch because you have no power or you're running restricted. It wouldn't make sense if one team is winning the whole damn thing because their car is stupid fast because people wouldn't have a chance anyway. However, It would make it more competative considering the chances.

Possible examples:

1. Hi! I'm Dave and I took out my tenth mortage in order to purchase my GT30 hybrid turbo which puts out 38 LBS and 360 to the Wheels. I'm winning almost every race. But damn it! The cat got out and needs to go to the vet because she cought a kitty STD. So I'll mist BV.
Hi! I'm mitch and I'm running 204 restricted because of the USRC. Damn you dave you're going down! Wait! No BV for you. Now is my chance.

Or:

2. Damn squirrels at TC! Now I have to Run a full season... but ok.
Or:

3. I could have done better (stupid Dos Gusanos). I know! BV!

Or:
**** you Dave! I'm doing BV and MP! Yeah! Well **** you Steve! I am to! Yeah!? Yeah!

I'm just rambling now. But you get my point. Shit happens and I think it adds to the "Play of the Season". It's just another element you can use to help yourself out during the season.

 

[ziggy682]

This is the first I've heard of the SCCA Time Trials thing. I think that sounds like a pretty good idea for next year if the dates work out. I can just picture driving a race track with our codrivers calling notes. We'd get some weird looks from the road racer guys.

 

[DaveK]

I know you like hillclimbs, but it's a rally championship.

Good point. I guess the founding reason for the CRC was to get more people to Rally Colorado. It worked - didn't we have 2x the number of CO cars entered this year? If the next stage is to grow the press coverage we're starting to generate and figure out ways to turn that into $$, PPIHC will have more press coverage than any rally (with the exception of the X-games superspecial).

I know PPIHC is high profile and gets sponsors to sign up, but the competition at Temple Canyon was stiffer than at PPIHC.

Understood, but how many of us could benefit from the extra exposure that an event like PPIHC brings? I can tell you with 100% certainty, that if it weren't for my involvement with PPIHC, I would not have been racing at the hillclimbs this year, I would've been out goofing around on race tracks. If you play your cards right, you can end up coming away from the event with more support to get you through the rest of the season....that's where I think it has real value. In addition, the car that won Temple Canyon was at Pikes Peak along with plenty of other cars that on paper should've been really competitive, but they failed to make the finish line. PPIHC has other issues like running 2 classes with almost identical rules......

I'm more impressed by how Dave crushed the LE and GC records than how he mopped up at PPIHC.

You could make the same argument for LE and GC II. There were 4 cars and 3 cars competing in the AWD class, less than the 6 cars that made up Time Attack AWD at the Peak.

Dave

 

[DaveK]

no power or you're running restricted.

Pull that shitty restrictor and come out and play, rules say you don't need one, so why shoot yourself in the foot? We missed you out there this year! Have Steve & Brian put together a better turbo mount so swapping the restrictor is a 10 minute job, not a 3 hour one, and have 2 ECU maps that you can change between. I hear anti-lag kicks ass too.

Dave

 

[Todd TCE]

Didn't follow it all Kevin but you deserve kudos for doing everything you have in this often difficult sport. Nice job.

 

[sleonard]

I agree with Scott. I think the option to drop one event would be sweet or a make up event. It should still work as an incentive because you can still improve if you do shitty at say... Monarch because you have no power or you're running restricted. It wouldn't make sense if one team is winning the whole damn thing because their car is stupid fast because people wouldn't have a chance anyway. However, It would make it more competative considering the chances.

Possible examples:

1. Hi! I'm Dave and I took out my tenth mortage in order to purchase my GT30 hybrid turbo which puts out 38 LBS and 360 to the Wheels. I'm winning almost every race. But damn it! The cat got out and needs to go to the vet because she cought a kitty STD. So I'll mist BV.
Hi! I'm mitch and I'm running 204 restricted because of the USRC. Damn you dave you're going down! Wait! No BV for you. Now is my chance.

Or:

2. Damn squirrels at TC! Now I have to Run a full season... but ok.
Or:

3. I could have done better (stupid Dos Gusanos). I know! BV!

Or:
**** you Dave! I'm doing BV and MP! Yeah! Well **** you Steve! I am to! Yeah!? Yeah!

I'm just rambling now. But you get my point. Shit happens and I think it adds to the "Play of the Season". It's just another element you can use to help yourself out during the season.

competitive.

of course you agree with me...

in rallying, opposed to hillclimbing, the guy with the fastest car doesn't always win. that's why it's the best motorsport in the world!

in hillclimbs you are limited by your equipment - on a proper rally stage the only thing slowing you down is your better judgement...

the hillclimb courses are great roads (for the most part) and have helped all of us learn to drive pretty damn well, but I think the greater goal here is to rally - to make it up as you go, to hope that blind corner really is a 5 and not a 2, to limp back to service, to McGyver your gear back onto stage, to stay flat when all you want to do is lift, to guess where the braking point is and figure out how to deal when you're wrong...

goddamnit when is the next rally?!

I need to get back on stage.

what were we discussing?

 

[DaveK]

in rallying, opposed to hillclimbing, the guy with the fastest car doesn't always win. that's why it's the best motorsport in the world!

in hillclimbs you are limited by your equipment - on a proper rally stage the only thing slowing you down is your better judgement...

Have you been to a rally lately? When was the last time someone with a $20,000 rally car won an event? I'd argue that no one has showed up with a proper hillclimb car yet. We've had people with loads of power (A4 5-cyl), and proper stage rally cars with good diffs (Bullit), but nothing that's really been built that combines the two. We certainly have not seen anything on the level of what the rally guys use...like you know...the guys who win rallies? Pastrana, Block, Pinker, ACP, Faust...and the list goes on and on. Given equal equipment, obviously the better driver will win, but that's not reality. Everyone of us has to pick and choose where we spend the money on the car vs. spending money on going to events.

I'd like to think the ultimate goal of the CRC is to increase competition in Colorado, with hopes of bringing in a 2nd stage rally to our state as Grant eluded to. The only way we'll get there is if we can demonstrate that there are enough viable teams in or near the state who will come out and support it. So, if we've got 30 built cars in Colorado, are we over-extenting people to ask them to do a couple rally-xes, 5ish hillclimbs, and a stage rally? Personally I don't think so...but entry lists for this year might have shown otherwise.

In any event, I thought the series had a great first year, recognition at Rally Colorado, discounts for competitors, press in local news outlets, and even support from Red Bull. Congrats to all who had a hand in getting the CRC off the ground...you guys rock!

Dave