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I just caught this on the CARS Website (updated Sept. 2, 2003):

"NRR II.G.3Production Class Vehicles Classes
NRR II.H.4Group N Classes

There will be no changes to the number or names of the Production or Group N classes for 2004"

http://www.carsrally.ca/2003/enews.html

I guess the planned merger of P1+P2+P3 fell through (or was it P1+P2..?). No matter, I bet a few folks are breathing a sigh of relief and stability of classes is a GOOD thing for rally in Canada.

Cheers,

Bill
 

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N1, N2, & N3 are about useless.

There are no 2003 P2 champions nor no 2002 P1 champions. No one had entered the required 50% of National events. Merging them is not a bad idea.
Not so much fun when there is no one else competing in your class as was the case for me in the first two 2003 events in P2. Just drive or codrive to finish.
 

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Do you think the SCCA's Production and Production GT rules make more sense then? This is sort of the idea of putting P1, P2 and P3 together and leaving P4 (which is essentially equivalent to the SCCA's PGT class).

Harry
 

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>Do you think the SCCA's Production and Production GT rules
>make more sense then?

Trick question.
You'll never hear me admit that SCCA rules make sense.

>P1, P2 and P3 together and leaving P4.

If there continues to be enough entries in P1 (4 at St Agathe) then leave the class as is (old CARS 1750GT). Not many cars fall in the P2 class. P3 has always been healthy. Interesting that P4 is slacking now. No one qualified yet by doing 50% of events (M. LeStage maybe?). Pilons season over. Levac and Paynters (car modified to Open for Targa NF at least) now in Open.

So were any engine multipliers for electric hybrids added to the 2004 rules?
Can't say the old Prius expoited that loophole but the new Prius gets much more power from the warp-drive motor.
 

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keeping P1 as it is is very good...for us...and for the sport.

rigth now we were 4 p1..all justy at Défie...many more are starting in rally sprint...at least 3 justy and 3 Swift... they will soone graduate to national.

also...i have meat many people that are starting to built justy...its a great and fun entry level car...it make it possible to alot of people to rally...


Alain Lavoie
24Rallyteam
http://www.abikeonline.com/24rallyteam/
 

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It seems that Production class is having problems everywhere. Here in Barbados there is also a lot of discussion on how to reclass the group to get more people invovled in it.

However currently we run our production class based on BHP/Tonne

Class 1 <80bhp/Tonne
Class 2 80bhp to less the 110bhp per tonne
Class 3 110 to less then 140bhp per tonne
Class 4 over 140bhp per tonne and all 4 wheel drive

Currently we only have two cars running in P Class, a new Cooper S and a old Turbo Starlet, both in P3.
 

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Interesting views all around. In fact I feel that the class merging made a lot of sense until we started noticing all these Justys, and now the merger doesn't make as much sense. In fact these P1 cars could probably compete with most of the current P2 cars, except for the AE86 Corolla, which will always be the choice for P2. Where have all the Swifts gone (long time passing)? That's the car for which the P1750 class was written.

Let me ask this, though: are we missing a G5 and/or a 2WD P4 class in Canada? There's nowhere for a Cooper S or Neon SRT to go except against AWD turbos.

ACP.
Flirting with the laws of physics.
 

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Performance and engine size are definitely on the increase with the auto manufacturers right now. As Andrew points out, for example, the SRT-4 ends up against the 4wd turbos, and this instantly makes some rally-suitable brand new cars uncompetitive.

The scale is moving against the smaller motors, and every year, the existing pool of small motor cars get older, and smaller in number.

We should probably merge P1 and P2 (I have an MR2 going into P2, and I think it would be a fair fight with the 4wd Justys). This would make one class of the smaller motors, and provide enough competitors to actually make a championship competition.

P3 seems to be doing well, as a lot of manufacturers are coming out with 2 litre engines.

The P4 class needs to be split between 2wd and 4wd cars.

Maybe we need to make P1 an amalgamation of P1 and P2, P3 is renamed P2, P4-2wd is created and named P3 and P4-4wd remains as the P4 class.

This would not harm any current competitors or make their cars any less competitive than they are now, and will increase class sizes and therefore the worthiness of each championship (ie, winning a championship will mean that much more than it does now).

Those are my thoughts anyways.
 

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Slid'n around 'n havin a ball
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RE: classes are for losers

All classes do is make it easier for losers to cherry-pick and win a meaningless trophy.
Bah-Humbug!
I really like the Justys and Swifts having a tussle, that's so cool.
but...
If you go to an SCCA regional race, you'll see 30+ classes with 125 entries and that is just stupid. So watch out or class-creep will goof everything up you'll end up with too many classes. Getting them removed again is very, very hard to do.
rz
 

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there is a VERY big step betwen a Justy....and a P2 car...

Justy's only have 60 HP...its unbeleivebely SLOW.....a swiftGT that fit in the same P1 class is 100hp and sometime more... the 4wd of the justy can sometime make it up on the 100hp fwd but...not all the time..

having justy in the same class as a MR2 ,GTS ,eagle summit or even accent is not faire... those cars are horspower monster compaire to Justy's...

i totaly scared my self driving a accent doing the road book for the summer maniwaki rally....(not really but it was way faster compare to our justy ) i even did the stages faster in my Rwd toyota previa minivan...LOL!!!!

some justy have manage to do pretty good results, but its not becose its a fast car....

from all the feed back i get here in Quebec...we will see new Swift and justy team pretty soone...

to my eyes....the key to get people to start rallying is by showing them that its possible and fun...even if you dont have the new WRX STI....



Alain Lavoie
24Rallyteam
http://www.abikeonline.com/24rallyteam/
 

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RE: a classless society

I knew I saw it somewhere.
I found it in Historic Conference, talking about the ageless rules thought up by the SCCA for historic class:
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"... A classless field has a lot to recommend for it. Really. Much (maybe most) of the contingency (and prize money) money was paid out by seed. If I remember right (and someone will correct me if I'm wrong) Cooper Tire used to pay $100 for the best finisher in each of the top 3 seeds and $50 for the best finisher in each of the other three. As a competitor, this meant that you were only competing against people in your seed unlike today where you might be competing much more experienced drivers in your class.

But this meant if you were a Seed 6 driver, you could actually win some money and pay some of your expenses and keep coming back.

At least a couple of events paid prize money much the same way. For some events, prize money was a percentage based on the number of entries in the seed. The percentages were usually a little higher for the higher seeds, but the events that gave prize money usually wound up distributing across all seed levels. The amount of prize money available to a Seed 5 driver was dependent on the number of entries in Seed 5.

If you got a better car or became a better driver, you moved up in your seed and competed against faster cars and faster drivers...
Eric Anderson "
 
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