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Getting Started Co-Driving Tips

53K views 41 replies 36 participants last post by  Rallykitten 
#1 ·
Hi everyone,my name is Vartan Davtian,I'm new in the forum and in co-driving too. I'll be co-driving in CRS this year..I'm looking anyone to give me any tips or any help please. I did attend Ridgcrest school in february, but I need more help from some well experienced co-drivers or drivers. Please feel free to contact me: My e-mail is natanwrx@yahoo.com
Thanks
Go Rally
 
#3 ·
>Hi everyone,my name is Vartan Davtian,I'm new in the forum
>and in co-driving too. I'll be co-driving in CRS this
>year..I'm looking anyone to give me any tips or any help
>please. I did attend Ridgcrest school in february, but I need
>more help from some well experienced co-drivers or drivers.
>Please feel free to contact me: My e-mail is
>natanwrx@yahoo.com

I think that there are two fundamental things that you should do.

1. If you know you want to compete, but don't have an exact timeline as to when, volunteer to work at events. This will give you experience about how time controls work, so it will be second-nature when you actually run an event, rather than learning it for the first time. Plus, organizers can always use help. And, while you are on that one...

2. Just talk to drivers and co-drivers. Rally folks are a friendly lot. Don't be bashful, walk up and start asking questions. But be mindful of when you do this; if a team is in service and has a lot of work to do in a short period of time, much as they would like to talk to you, they have other more pressing concerns. Usually social time after a rally is a good time for talking to folks.

Do you have some specific questions that you would like answered, or are you just looking for general information?

Ben
Sometimes Co-Driver
Sometimes Organizer
 
#4 ·
It's been about a year since I've co-driven, but I have some of my tips on my web page:

http://homepage.mac.com/jeremyrowland/tips.html

"Rally Navigation" by Martin Holmes is a popular recommended read, but I think it's a little overrated and it didn't do much for me other than being an interesting rally read (lots of war stories.) A book I liked better is "Rally Co-driving" by Phil Short, a little out-of-date in places (1992) but still surprisingly useful.

Ideally you should work a few rallies and maybe crew once or twice before co-driving, but then again, I co-drove on the second rally I ever attended (the only previous experience was spectating 2 stages at Maine and watching the Oquossoc service.) Look for shorter (60-70 miles or less) rallies to cut your teeth. It will be a less intense, lower pressure experience all around.

Prepare as much as you can. Pack heavy for the service van and light for the rally car, and don't try to replicate everything that your driver/mechanic is supposed to already have. Read up as much as you can find on the internet and books about all the tricks of the top co-drivers, but remember that you will forget it all as soon as the countdown starts and you'll probably already be lost after a couple turns -- I know I was :) The only thing to really worry about on your first rally is staying on time and on course on the transits, a driver shouldn't expect any more on a navie's first time out.

Communicate with your driver! That's probably the most important tip of all. If there is even the smallest possibility that you think you're lost, tell him. At least then he won't be getting bad info from you and can "drive the road." Ask him for feedback, and ignore him whenever he raises his voice :)

Relax, have fun! It'll be a while before you move into the competitive ranks, and there will be plenty of stress then ;)

--
JP Rowland jeremyrowland -at- mac.com
http://homepage.mac.com/jeremyrowland
 
#5 ·
I agree with the comments above. I would sugest that you and your driver try a TSD type rally before trying a performance rally. This is especially true if you can find a "Brisk" TSD rally like the Coast to Coast Rally on Vancouver Island which was on gravel.

There a several reasons I say this.

1. The environment less intense and more forgiving. The speed you are traveling at is more controlled and if you miss an instruction the driver should not wrap the car around a tree. This is probably the main reason and has a big influence on all of the other reasons listed below.

2. It will allow you to get comfortable with using the computer in your car.

3. It will give you a chance to work with your driver and the dialogue that he wants or needs.

4. It will get you familiar with route books, including using them on the road(the instruction will be different than "stage" notes) and maintaining you position in the book while bouncing down the road. It will also help you develop the skills that go along with reading the instructions like looking for instruction reference points and if your stomach will handle the bouncing around while reading.

5. It will get you familiar with event check in procedures, Tech and registration.

6. It will give you a chance to experience working with the rally clock and timing of arrivals/departure at check points and service.

7. If you are unfortunate to have a tire go flat it will allow you to work with the driver to get the task done as quickly as possible. It may even reveal that you do not have the equipment required to make a tire change on stage.

8. The final reason is to get you and the driver to feel comfortable in the car. The driver get some experience with the car in controlled conditions and you get to get comfortable with the way the driver handles the car. You also get to find out if the car has been preped properly for a performance type rally.

After completing a TSD rally or two you will find differences between a TSD rally and a performance rally. However, the differences will be mainly in the route book instructions, and the procedures used at time controls. You will also need to learn how to interpret the instructions in a manner that is meaningful to your driver and make your notes so that they can be read quickly on stage.

I am a somewhat a newbie in the right seat myself. I have been working with my son for a little over 1-1/2 years in rally. I have been co-driver for 3or 4 events now. After the C2C rally I found that I was a lot more comfortable in the right seat. I will find out how much this next weekend.

Good luck.
 
#6 ·
Gotta agree with TSD as being a great place to learn the co-driver side. Slower pace, emphasis on accuracy and organization. Learn a computer, learn driver/co-driver interaction, learn what to have when.

But those brisk gravel TSD rallies at night are especially good }(
 
#7 ·
I would go out and navigate in a TSD first. This will be a good test to see how you interact with your driver and think while your moving. it is also a good way to test your ability to resist motion sickness. Either way, keep a decent sized zip lock bag in the car for those rare cases.
 
#8 ·
Gravol, Its all about gravol

but dont eat too many before the event. we drivers dont need you falling asleep on us. ( as if thats even possible)

some folks prefer gravol patches instead.

you can never pull the car over fast enough to let the co-driver out.

better safe than stinky!

AW

IMPULSE RS.
 
#9 ·
Wow Vartan you have received some excellent advice. I think I can help fill in the cracks for some useful information for you.

1. Your local TSD series is largely handled by the fine people at the Santa Monica Sports Car Club (www.smscc.org). There are no gravel TSD events in your area, but if you're up for some adventure there are wonderful ones in western Canada, Washington state and one in northern California (just past).

2. The single greatest piece of advice ever offered to me was from Bill Gutzmann, a legendary navigator and car builder. He said to me after my fourth or fifth rollover... "John, always navigate for someone who has more to lose than you do!" Haven't rolled since 1995 following that bit of advice. (Watch I just jinxed myself by putting that in cyberspace!)

3. When the car does roll remember two things always... A) Your hand out the window will not hold the car up! B) Fold your arms over mummy style hugging the route book and grab your shoulder harnesses. A flying route book can hurt you while the car does its gymnastics.

4. Go into your first event without worrying about car sickness. If you want keep a bottle of ginger root capsules in your co-driver bag, they work fast and cure motion sickness fast. They are available at any health food store or vitamin place at the mall. In the same vein try and avoid carbonated drinks before the event and at service, it can make you car sick if you're prone to it and more important, drivers hate belching noises though the terraphone.

5. Drivers. Well good luck there. They're all different but one thing they have in common is most don't listen to you anyway.

6. Your service crew knows nothing! At least assume that, as the navigator you are the one who is supposed to have your head on straight all weekend long. Keeping your service crew informed and educated on what to do will make the weekend much more pleasant for all involved. Go over everything with them, where to go, WHEN TO BE THERE!, what to do if you don't show up and are a DNF (wait for radio crew to instruct them how to retrieve you and not to move until they either have that information or you come in on a hook), and in the case of some events with service check in zones where they can and cannot touch the car.

7. Find a friendly experienced navigator around you in the starting order and be sure to ask questions so you have a good couple of first events. A mentor a car or two in front or back of you can lower your anxiety levels quite a bit.

Hope we all helped you just a little bit.
 
#10 ·
I thought that Martin Holmes' Rally Navigation was a little more geared towards TSD rally, but it was still a good read when I was first getting into co-driving. It gives the basic tips on basic turns and problem solving if something drastic happens (i.e. getting lost in notes, working rally computers, marking notes, etc.) I believe the best way to improve co-driving skills is to ask the veteran co-drivers. I got some of my best advice from asking co-drivers like Christian and Rebecca Greek.
Thats my .02... happy navigating!
Kippis!
 
#11 ·
So, I only have a couple of years experience, however, one thing that I am very familar with is the nausiated feeling of a co-driver whos driver thinks its fun to get the rear end of the car bouncing up and down and wont pull over because its not safe. Yes, my driver did not pull over and I vomited 5 stages in a row while we were racing. He tried once, but I yelled at him that we were racing and pulling over would only slow us down. So with that in minde here are a few crucial things a co-driver needs at all times:

1: Candied Ginger. Eat before each stage and after. Believe me it helps. I have not gotten sick since I discovered this beauty.

2: Extra water. Keep hydrated and drink cold, or hot, mint tea. It is great for an upset stomach, keeps you hydrated and you dont have to worry about putting a ton of crap into your body

3: A leak proof bag with a large opening. Helmet bags leak, learned from experience, and when you are vomiting while racing you dont want it all over your suit, belts and seat. It stinks.

4: Even if you feel fine, keep an extra leak proof bag with you. You will always have more in you to loose on the next stage. I though I was fine, didn't worry about another bag and there is only so much you can catch in your hands to try to put on the floor. The event workers don't want to look at a co-driver with vomit all over herself, seat, and belts.

5: Food, Food, Food. Even if you aren't hungry, eat. You will feel better all weekend. Eat when you first get into service. Start with a little to drink, then move on to solids. This will give you some time to digest before your next stage. Eat small amounts all day so you aren't overly stuffed. THis will also limit how much comes up later.

6: A good pair of shoes to push the damn car in. Starters go out ALL the time, at least they do in my car and drivers aren't worth a darn when it comes to that so you are on your own :D

7: A good warm hat to wear. After a stage, durring transit, roll down the window and put on your warm hat. It helps with nausia while the hat keeps you just warm enough. It is especially fun if it is a goofy looking hat. Who can not have fun when they look goofy?

Recap...
Remember to always have:
Candied Ginger
H2O, and Mint Tea
Leak proof bag
Food
Good Shoes
Warm Hat


And if you are ever uncomfortable with your diver, tell her. If she doesnt do what you say, "Slow down" etc. get out of the car and dont get back in until he listens. It is your life.

Good luck! And remember if you aren't having fun, what is the point?

~Randee

PS: I crewed twice before I co-drove for the first time. You dont need to do a TSD if you dont want to, however, I still dont know what the heck I'm doing sometimes.
 
#14 ·
This was my first season codriving: I got lucky and ended up with a fairly established driver, so I had to catch up quick. I watched a lot of in car to get the hang of calling the notes. It's totally different from TSD when you are at speed, and there's lots of good in car stuff on youtube.

Also, the best codrivers I know do their calculations twice. And then they do them one more time. There is no sense in taking penalties for bad math.
 
#15 ·
Also, the best codrivers I know do their calculations twice. And then they do them one more time. There is no sense in taking penalties for bad math.
Not only calculate them twice but write them down in the route book so you don't forget or get your times wrong.

In three seasons of co-driving, I have never needed Dramamine or anything else for car sickness but I keep some in my co-drivers bag just in case someone else needs it. You may get lucky like me and not need it.

I also carry a pair of wool gloves with the finger tips cut off.
 
#20 ·
Hmm, I thought it was always a bad idea to have the driver to check my math. Its just that, counting and giving directions is supposed to be my role in the team (on transit) and then screaming out orders Serj Tankian style on stage to Mitch is usual protocol. His job is to keep the tire side down-- not to do math.
That reminds me-- Ill have to find the stage notes that I made to System of a Down's "aerials" ran of to... Good times...
Moral of the story:::: you count and add times once, twice, thrice and up to 'X' times until you have ultimately convinced yourself that you have counted correctly!!!
 
#24 ·
I like to have the driver double-check the math - the driver can win it, but the navigator can lose it - and if you lose over a simple math error, it's doubly embarrasing!

I recommend that you write the double-checked number right on the score card, now that R-A allows you to write there - makes it easier to communicate with the workers at the MTC/ATC, especially when in a noisy V8 beastie.
 
#25 ·
Always perform 30% more than what your job requires you. Your primary goal is obviously your duties in the right seat: Delivering the pacenotes perfectly and to the driver's likings, keeping the car on time and on route during transit sections, do overall a professional job inside and outside the car (before and after the event too) in that precise order.
YOUR GOAL for the end of the season has to be to have your driver, your team manager and your sponsors tell you have done a great job, it has been a pleasure working with you for the season and they are looking forward to the next one. If that happens you have done your job 110% and you are climbing the ladder the right way. The racing lifespan of a codriver is usually double the one of a driver and there is plenty of time to learn, but at the same time you must keep your eyes open for opportunities and grab them when they present themselves. Also, luck in the codriving world is less important than for Rally Drivers. If you are very good at it, you WILL make it to the top rides.

alexgelsomino.com
 
#27 ·
N American codriving/pacenoting manual

Hot off the presses!

I had several people interested in codriving ask me to give them a how-to seminar so I began writing one. Well, the final product turned out to be more of a book (100+ pages). While aimed at novice codrivers, the movement plan example and pacenoting information includes a couple tricks and terms that could benefit experienced teams. Some tidbits useful for drivers to avoid penalties.

So much for the cut and paste non-formatting of an outline but here is the glossary

1. Pre-event duties
A. Familiarize yourself with sanctioning body’s rulebook
B. Familiarize yourself with event supplemental rules
C. Movement plan
D. Checklist
E. Car setup
F. Codriver’s bag/Camelback
G. Dealing w/ motion sickness
2. During the rally
A. Registration
B. Scrutineering/Technical Inspection
C. Odo check
D. Parc Expose/Parc Ferme
E. Controls
i. Main
ii. Arrival
iii. Finish
iv. Regrouping
v. Observation
vi. Quiet zones
vii. Missing controls
viii. Quebec
F. Timing
i. Stage schedule
ii. Scorecard
iii. Reseed/regrouping
iv. Time penalties
v. Maximum permitted lateness/earliness
G. Following route
i. Routebook
AA. Routebook Contents
a. Stage schedule
b. Glossary of terms and symbols
c. Emergency contact #s
d. Maps
e. Blank inquiry forms
f. Blank withdrawal notice form
g. Blank incident report form
h. Odo check instructions
i. Blank competitor stage time’s comparison chart
j. Blank event competitor event evaluation form
k. OK sign/Red cross
l. Tulip instructions
BB. Routebook preparation
CC. Calling routebook instructions
a. Routebook instruction vocabulary
b. Routebook instruction timing
ii. Stagenotes
AA. Types of stagenotes
a. Jemba inertia notes
b. Human measured notes
BB. Preparing notes prior to start of rally
CC. Notes familiarization pass
DD. Preparing during rally, calling note and getting lost
iii. Pacenotes
AA. Recce
a. Be ready and equipped
b. 1st pass
c. 2nd pass
d. Rewrite vs. edit original
CC. Preparing notes during a rally
DD. Calling stagenotes
EE. If you become lost in stage notes
H. Service area
I. Emergency procedures
i. Use of warning signs
ii. Reaction to warning signs (and absence of warning signs)
J. Sweep
K. Results
L. Inquires
M. Competitor event evaluation
N Thank workers
3. Appendix
A. Sources
B. Movement plan example
C. Related websites

Includes for you photocopying pleasure; blank codriver event checklist, blank stage times comparasion chart and blank service checklist.

Includes 5 examples of pacenotes from well-traveled N American teams with notes describing each style.

$25 plus shipping. Can deliver to events I'm participating in. PM me here.
 
#28 ·
Breaking tons of rules here... I know this topic is dead and this is my first post, but since I co-drive this is the first thread I saw and thought of some simple first time co-driver tips. I've been to 5 rallies and codriven 3 so I am still very much a novice but this is some info that was given to, or would have helped me the first time. These are all assuming that since it's your first time you are at least friends with your driver. Also these aren't going to be as deep and meaningful as some of the other advice, these are just some super novice tips for your first rally.

1. As a co-driver you are responsible for time. Get a nice digital watch with seconds and set it to the rally clock as soon as possible. You can't place 100% of your trust on this watch (although you kind of have to) but as long as you are consistently checking its sync you will be ok. I bought mine for nine bucks at a K-mart in Blythe. It's pink and polka-dotted but it has a huge display and was still on the exact second when I left desert storm.

2. On my Route book/pace notes I use these little post it note tabs to mark the 1st page of each stage and transit. I actually put them on the back side of the previous page so I can just pull the book open by the tab and bam I'm on the stage we want. Just makes it easier to get to things quickly. I also dog ear every other page to help avoid skipping pages. It might happen so just be aware that it could and be ready to recognize it when your notes seem wrong.

3. I might have a slight case of ADD so this may only apply to me, but the biggest thing I remind myself of throughout the race is to FOCUS. I tend to go on autopilot normally so I have to really press myself to pay attention to everything I'm doing. So yeah, FOCUS. And stay FOCUSED.

4. Bring a ton of pens and keep them handy. I don't know how many I have lost so far.

5. This one applies more to a team like mine (me a buddy and his parents) but don't be afraid to remind your driver if you guys are running late for anything. 5 minutes in real time will seem much shorter than 5 minutes in I swear I can fix this right now time. Yell if you have to.

6. Outside of the car, help out as much as you can. Learn the routines of service and fuel and every other kind of down time. Learn how the car gets tied down on the trailer and where all the gear goes. It all seems simple but your driver has most likely spent a metric ton of money so far and it can get stressful when things dont go right.

As far as having a driver check math... In the 3 Southwest Regionals we have done, the transits so far have all been short (45 minutes was the longest I believe) and simple routes that we already had memorized after recce. So yeah I check my math with him every time and I check it several times after that. When you are on a 45 minute drive that you both have done several times you don't really have anything better to do other than talk about what kind of beer you want later or decide if you are going to check out the pool at the hotel. Keep in mind that we are nowhere near what I would consider proffesionals, just hobbyists that like to have fun, neither of us are getting payed and we are just happy to be racing.

Good luck, and again, sorry for reviving a dead thread.
 
#29 ·
4. Bring a ton of pens and keep them handy. I don't know how many I have lost so far.

Good luck, and again, sorry for reviving a dead thread.
Please do NOT use pens. Use only 2mm technical PENCILS (Staedtler Leadholder). Reason is, if the pacenotes get wet, ink will blurr itself and the notes will be unreadable, or even worse a - could become a + an < and so on. Besides, your driver WILL change 50% of the notes between the first and second run on the recce, so you will have to clean a lot of pages with the rubber.. :D

Also, you never know when you need to "erase your way out of a problem". In Wales 2010, on our way to Cardiff for the very last control (70 or so Ks transit), I accidentally wrote my check in reminder on the time card, where the marshall was supposed to write it, instead that on the Competitor allowance space..That would be a DQ, but I was simply able to erase it no problem.
I usually start the recce with 4 of those pencils and loose a couple between recce and end of the rally, as they can fly off your hands on jumps landings, bumps, rolls, etc.
 
#31 ·
Since this thread got revived, best bit of advice I have?

Put your driver on a leash at larger events.



I can't tell you how many times per each Parc Expose drivers think they have some right to walk away into a crowd of a few hundred to few thousand people without asking what time they need to be back.

Other option, lock the car from the outside with your driver inside. Be sure to crack the window and provide them with water every now and then.
 
#33 ·
Couple of things as a complete novice after my first co-driving experience. The two watch thing is important and this is why. I set my main watch to rally time. As I switched it over to 24 hour time, I inadvertently changed the hour and failed to notice. On the way to the first stage, I notice that I'm 1 hour off. ugg. So I went to go add the hour, and in the process mistakenly reset the seconds. I know I'm in the correct minute more or less....but know the seconds aren't correct. Look for my second watch....and it was sitting in the service vehicle, d'oh. Thankfully we arrived early enough I could ask another co-driver for a time check before entering the time control. So the experienced folks are probably getting a kick out of this. Anyways, my advice on the two watch thing. Make sure you have both with you at all times. Make sure they both match times. If you are wise, you'll check your watch with a competitor prior to it becoming important.

Using the route book given to you: The binding is fragile. In the excitement of the first stage, I pulled a page out. Turns out the binding let go. Do what it takes to make sure your route book stays together. Loose pages are no fun to deal with. Thankfully I was able to keep it together.

Drinks. Make sure you can figure out a way to take something to hydrate you. Either in your bag or a fixed cup holder.

Stash your writing instruments in a safe manner in as many places as you are able. Some Gnome will come take them during the stage. Have others ready.
I used a full face helmet. In retrospect, I'd use an open face, mostly because it will be easier to look down and see everything from where you dropped the pencil to making sure the harness straps are in place.
If you are helping build a car, make sure the co-driver side has a foot rest that works well for you. I would have never thought of that, thankfully my driver had. Made a big difference keeping me comfortable in the car.
As mentioned above if you get lost say you are lost, and let the driver know when you are back on track. If you repeat a note for emphasis, make sure you say it is a repeat.
Hopefully the experienced folks will look at this and advise the smarter way of doing things. This is just what I encountered on my first go around.
 
#34 ·
Using the route book given to you: The binding is fragile. In the excitement of the first stage, I pulled a page out. Turns out the binding let go. Do what it takes to make sure your route book stays together. Loose pages are no fun to deal with. Thankfully I was able to keep it together.
Had my binding come loose as well, put it back together without getting anything out of order, thankfully

Stash your writing instruments in a safe manner in as many places as you are able. Some Gnome will come take them during the stage. Have others ready.
Had 4 nonfunctional pens, and 3 functional pens. At the end of the day I had 1 barely functional pen.
If you are helping build a car, make sure the co-driver side has a foot rest that works well for you. I would have never thought of that, thankfully my driver had. Made a big difference keeping me comfortable in the car.
The footrest in the EVO IV was a little crooked, loose and carbon fiber... I think I would have preferred a sturdy aluminum or even steel footrest.

From novice to novice, I'd say your advice helps. :)
 
#35 ·
Bit of a revival of the thread here. I cannot afford a car and the financial burden of being a driver but would still love to compete. Is it possible to be a "mercenary" co-driver for one or two events? I've been marshalling *ahem* watching for too long. Some advice for those of us who truly don't know what we're doing is still missing here.

1) What equipment does the co-driver normally provide/need? What kind of budget would they need to participate in something like LSPR/Sno-Drift or Magnum Opus?

2) Just where do you learn Jemba and Tulip notes anyway and the proper way to read them to a driver?

Fortunately for me I'm going to attempt to talk a local co-driver extraordinaire/brew-master into passing along some of his teachings. I feel like I'll have some luck in that.

Thanks!
 
#38 ·
Maybe fill out your profile. Where are you?

Easier to go over books in person than over the interwebs.......

Watching in-car is a start.

Don't believe everything the Pirate tells you. Especially if brown pops are involved....

ymmv



press on,
 
#36 ·
Well, for someone with little to no experience you might be able to find a reverse-mercenary position. :)

If you offer to cover some of the event expenses it might make a driver seeking a codriver look at you a bit more favorably.

Good luck and, as Jimmy would say, welcome to the loony bin.

Simon
USUK Racing
 
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