Pros and cons of the NASA Pallysport timing and scoring program - Page 2
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Thread: Pros and cons of the NASA Pallysport timing and scoring program

  1. #11
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    Anders, what happens if a worker enters a wrong time either by clumsy fingers or say a guy enters control ON TIME and is at the desk/whatever ON TIME and the workers is for whatever reason, slow and enters the NEXT minute..
    How can that be corrected or FLAGGED? For correction..
    Can it be set up to correct on the spot?
    I've heard of this happening...and it does seem that back east there are significantly more booking in early/late penalties than saw out here in the PNW
    John Vanlandingham
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  3. #12
    NASA Rally Sport grassroots!!! Anders Green's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Vanlandingham View Post
    Anders, what happens if a worker enters a wrong time either by clumsy fingers or say a guy enters control ON TIME and is at the desk/whatever ON TIME and the workers is for whatever reason, slow and enters the NEXT minute..
    For cars entering controls, the software will let you "bump" the time it saves up or down a minute (or multiple minutes). So you can either correct it before you even capture the time of the car coming in, or if you realize that it's a problem after you hit the split button, you can bump it up or down then.

    It would be easier to show you... oh wait, yes, we have online training videos! Here it is in under 90 seconds:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0mfR...4BDUfWVgcF-qBQ

    For anyone worried about abuse... the ACTUAL time that the button was actually pressed, down to the millisecond, is recorded also and saved right along with whatever gets edited. So the scoring guy gets that data too. Now that we have that, we end up looking at it a couple times each rally to decipher "what really happened" out there when we get inquiries claiming "oh, the control was so backed up". We call it "forensic scoring".

    Quote Originally Posted by John Vanlandingham View Post
    and it does seem that back east there are significantly more booking in early/late penalties than saw out here in the PNW
    Unsurprisingly, when you use computer software that automatically finds and calculates check-in penalties, it finds them all. The NRS scoring software is the only system in the US that does this. In the other systems, your check in time is never even entered into the computer, it's just a human looking at cards. Maybe they find it, maybe they don't. Maybe they only find the big ones, or the ones they saw happen in person. Even "back east" you'll see that the "more penalties" happens only at events with this automatic detection.

    Gotta do your math right people. But the penalty calculation part of it is actually at a different level of "the scoring system". The Nook clocks are "data collection" only and don't decide on any penalties... they just record times and car numbers. They rely on someone further up the chain to take responsibility for that.

    Anders
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    Your question is probably answered in Rally University.

  4. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Vanlandingham View Post
    Anders, what happens if a worker enters a wrong time either by clumsy fingers or say a guy enters control ON TIME and is at the desk/whatever ON TIME and the workers is for whatever reason, slow and enters the NEXT minute..
    How can that be corrected or FLAGGED? For correction..
    Can it be set up to correct on the spot?
    I've heard of this happening...and it does seem that back east there are significantly more booking in early/late penalties than saw out here in the PNW
    We had this happen at a finish, finish worker entered our time with the correct seconds, wrong minute. We noted it on the card and to them, and as with all other rallys it was mutually agreed "yes this needs to be looked at later by scoring". It was automatically corrected later on, we never had to follow up on it.

    As to early/late penalties. I will give a theory as to why there are more, and why I got the only ones I've ever gotten:

    NRS is very good about the 'be loose about it' in dealing with the ATC arrivals. Which is really nice for anyone mid/back of the pack, because in RA events I get a marathon workout because of start delays I must jump out of the car at every single control and run to turn my card in. NRS, this generally doesn't happen. Until it does. Then it catches a lot of us at once because we're used to the relaxed approach, and intermittently one of the controls will be more rigid and give us the penalty minute.

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  6. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by ShadowImg View Post
    We had this happen at a finish, finish worker entered our time with the correct seconds, wrong minute. We noted it on the card and to them, and as with all other rallys it was mutually agreed "yes this needs to be looked at later by scoring". It was automatically corrected later on, we never had to follow up on it. As to early/late penalties. I will give a theory as to why there are more, and why I got the only ones I've ever gotten: NRS is very good about the 'be loose about it' in dealing with the ATC arrivals. Which is really nice for anyone mid/back of the pack, because in RA events I get a marathon workout because of start delays I must jump out of the car at every single control and run to turn my card in. NRS, this generally doesn't happen. Until it does. Then it catches a lot of us at once because we're used to the relaxed approach, and intermittently one of the controls will be more rigid and give us the penalty minute.
    Shouldn't the rules be followed by everyone including the volunteers??? What happens when a control worker isn't "rigid" with some competitor(s) and then those competitor(s) end up ahead of the competitor where a control worker is "rigid" and follows the rules and control instructions. Everyone has the same rules to follow and a control worker not being rigid can make a big difference in the final results that isn't fair to anyone. Timebar seems to be another area where NRS doesn't always follow their rules. While it is understandable to allow time barred competitors to be allowed to continue and get seat time, why should they get a finish position that might be better than someone who followed the rules when they should have been time barred and shown as a DNF but, allowed to continue in order to get seat time but, not be scored as a finisher?? IMHO, rules need to be followed by everyone and if an organizer or sanctioning body believe the rules need to be changed, change them but, nobody should make decisions to not follow the rules unless it is applied to everyone on the entire rally and published on the official notice board.
    Dave Weiman
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    Not suggesting it's wrong - just suggesting why you see the delta.

  8. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by ShadowImg View Post
    Not suggesting it's wrong - just suggesting why you see the delta.
    Wasn't directing my comments at you but, needed your post to explain where I was coming from with your example which IMHO shows what might be considered an unfair playing field.
    Dave Weiman
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  9. #17
    NASA Rally Sport grassroots!!! Anders Green's Avatar
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    Good, I believe everyone should follow the rules too, so we agree.
    NASA Rally Sport Director
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  10. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anders Green View Post
    Good, I believe everyone should follow the rules too, so we agree.
    Glad to hear that Anders. Guess if what some people are saying about some workers not being rigid with following the rules and scoring possibly not time barring people who exceed MPL are correct, you need to remind your volunteers to follow the rules and avoid making decisions that may break your rules. Rumors abound about NRS rallies being liberal with time bares and penalties at ATC's and MTC's so sincerely hope the rumors and what has been posted are incorrect but, reminders are a good thing especially with new volunteers. Thanks,
    Dave Weiman
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  11. #19
    NASA Rally Sport grassroots!!! Anders Green's Avatar
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    Dave, I can only suggest you read NRS's time barring rules as from your statement, it appears you think they are the same as SCCA/RA. They are significantly different. With NRS, volunteers in the field or in sweep or at service don't declare anyone over MPL, so they literally can't be liberal with time barring, as they don't get to do it. That's a function of the higher ups.

    Anders
    NASA Rally Sport Director
    Your question is probably answered in Rally University.

  12. #20
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    There is an underlying thought that I've heard for a couple years, mostly from the RA camp that NRS runs a loose ship. I've heard it from several people and in several areas of conversation. While both Anders and Kris put on their own events, NRS technically doesn't organize an event neither does RA. The events are all put on by organizers and volunteer help, regardless of sanctioning bodies. As such each event will have general guidelines to run under but will have its own flavor and 'personality' . As one of the few organizers to actually have sanctioned the same event with both sanctioning bodies I can say I have not seen any significant differences in desires or procedures over a 10 year period of doing so. I've bent a few rules with both sanctioning bodies to keep things flowing smoothly and I've seen Stewards from both sides bend a few rules also. Life without flexibility wouldn't be much fun after a while.

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