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Pros and cons of the NASA Pallysport timing and scoring program

16K views 27 replies 13 participants last post by  rallyxr4ti 
#1 ·
Inquiring minds want to know how this comes together for the rally volunteer. We are searching for a better way to do timing and scoring, and the volunteers are integral to a successful scoring program. This was brought home this year at STPR, and we want to make it easier. We have a line on some relatively inexpensive 7" tablets that could work.
 
#2 · (Edited)
1) 919.697.5282

2) Which part of "the scoring system"? As in nrs.com/the_confusion_behind_the_rally_scoring_system

3) So many training videos. Limited selection:
http://www.nasarallysport.com/d734/VolunteerTraining
http://www.nasarallysport.com/d734/rallyscoringtraining

The main con is you're not going to be able to replace three decades of experience with Timewise clocks. Training reduces this con, but doesn't eliminate it. Not until it has been in use for several events. If the software does "feature X" but you haven't taught people about "feature X" then in effect feature X isn't there. You can tell people there's a manual hard button to capture split times, but if that person gets swapped in the field and doesn't tell the next person, well, they won't know.

As far as the Android software goes... it's public and available to loads of devices via the official Google Play store because NRS believes things we build should make rally better. Over 1,000 people have installed it around the world.

The Nooks have been used at 12 rally events now, so the number of people who are familiar with them in the US is slowly growing. The user interface has evolved a lot (and still is) based on user feedback. Hopefully some of them will chime in with their "first timer" experience, since that will be most relevant to you. Some have been frustrated by dealing with new hardware/software while in the pressure-filled situation of working a rally control, many found it so easy to use they had no comments on it at all. (As in "I did my job, the device did its job, therefore all I have to report is rally cars are awesome".)

Using any electronic device there will be issues of power. Have spares, and plan to charge, and it works out.

Anders
 
#3 ·
Meredith,

I think you would be wise to use Ander's software. While I haven't actually used his nooks in the field, I have tried early versions out at Rally WV HQ. Also many of the PRIMO peple have used them. Ask Kent and Sandy Gardam for their input. Kent is definitely old school, but I think he has used the nooks on Sandblast and Magnum Opus. Should give you a prospective on "can old dogs learn new tricks".
 
#4 ·
It works

I just used the Nooks at Magnum Opus.
For the first time.
"Training" was in the field, and I had to teach some with no prior rally experience, who were almost as old as me.
They work. And a LOT more reliably than some of the vintage RA stuff.
The app is available to load to your smartphone to experiment with.
We were in an area with no cell coverage (kinda like some places at STPR), so sweep could not electronically (magically) upload the times from our Nooks to the great scoring in the sky. Thus they had to swap Nooks with us, so they could then upload results when they had coverage...
Even though Anders is an engineer, us regular folk can understand and use the Nooks.

press on,
 
#7 ·
Here's the feedback I sent Anders after MO:

This past weekend I had the chance to use the Nook for the first time to run starts (3 stages) and finishes (1 stage). I found it challenging at times, and thought I would provide a bit of feedback.


My first problem was with durability. I think I managed to break the screen before the first stage started (bottom inch of the display quit working, and then the touch functions were horribly unreliable). As a result, I found that the touch screen wouldn't register a touch reliably. I ended up having to hand count down about a third of the cars on SS3. At one point, since I was repeatedly touching to try to get times logged, I accidentally took it back to the home/main screen and was forced to hold the start until I could at least get back to a screen with a clock. This did cause a minor three minute delay in the middle of the stage.

This brings up my first improvement: Every screen should have a current time clock on it. Especially the main screen. Even if we can't figure out how to use it, or if it stops recording touches, if it has a visible clock, we can use our backup paper logs.

Saturday, I got a replacement nook and was back at a start.

The first stage (SS8) went relatively smoothly for me. The nook worked well, and only a couple times did I have issues with it picking up touches, or touching too many times. For me, being relatively young (38), and in tech, the app does seem well designed and I can navigate around to make it do want I wanted at any of the start or ATC screens.

SS11, we had rain, so I had to add the ziploc over the nook. I filled it with air, but being that ziplocs are not really designed to be balloons, I found it lost air over time, and the second half of the stage was much more difficult with many more false touches.

The last stage of the weekend for us was SS13. Here we got the chance to work our first finish. Dave took the FTC, and I was at flying finish. Due to the narrow, high-speed finish, I had to stand on the edge of the road to see the cars approaching, then move up to countdown and mark the finish. Here, the touchscreen was really problematic, as I had to always look down to see where to press, while trying to watch the car and get my "mark" correct as they barreled across the line at 80+mph. Also, since at a finish you only have one chance to mark the correct time, you need 100% reliability in your stopwatch. I had a plastic bag over the nook again, for dust and rain, and ended up missing 3 cars out of 20...a pretty high failure rate. And this was a relatively easy finish, with two minute windows and no cars closer than a minute together. I'd think on a long stage where you get cars stacked up, the problems would be even worse.

My last issue with the finish application was the interface to edit numbers. I found, more than once, that I ended up in the wrong time entry, and sometimes even edited that number before I realized it (and I was just recording sequences, as I had no chance of catching bike or car numbers). I think an automatic sequence number or some other identifier on each entry would be helpful to make sure the time entry that pops up in the edit screen is the one you want. Also, having larger/fewer entries in the finish log for the active screen would reduce the chances of getting into the wrong time. If we had 4-5 entries on the main finish screen, and could tap the bottom (like at the start) to get a "full" log screen, that would be better.


Thanks, and I hope some of this is helpful in improving it for future rallies.
 
#8 ·
I had no previous training or anything and started using them the first time after playing with it while waiting for the cars to arrive at 2014 ESPR at a stage start. I found it very easy to use though we had no weather or dust issues. I was able to teach a few others and they seemed to understand the usage easily. We never had power or any other issues and I found it helpful and easy to use both days. At Magnum Opus, we had issues with glare (was competing) seeing the countdown clock on at least one stage...
 
#9 ·
The app itself seemed to work great. Easy to figure out (being "techy"). It was just the device used that gave me issues with entering (Nook). From playing with the NASA app on an android tablet and my phone, works awesome. As fast as your little piggies can move. Be nice if there was a way to use your own tablet or smartphone, and export the data (bluetooth/NPC) to the crew collecting it.
 
#10 ·
Be nice if there was a way to use your own tablet or smartphone, and export the data (bluetooth/NPC) to the crew collecting it.
This totally works, by the way. Uploading from any device all goes to one central spot. So if you had a huge bright tablet and used that, when it uploaded (either via they sweep's hotspot or your own 3G) the scoring guy would get it right next to all the other data from the "official" Nooks.

Anders
 
#11 ·
Anders, what happens if a worker enters a wrong time either by clumsy fingers or say a guy enters control ON TIME and is at the desk/whatever ON TIME and the workers is for whatever reason, slow and enters the NEXT minute..
How can that be corrected or FLAGGED? For correction..
Can it be set up to correct on the spot?
I've heard of this happening...and it does seem that back east there are significantly more booking in early/late penalties than saw out here in the PNW
 
#12 ·
Anders, what happens if a worker enters a wrong time either by clumsy fingers or say a guy enters control ON TIME and is at the desk/whatever ON TIME and the workers is for whatever reason, slow and enters the NEXT minute..
For cars entering controls, the software will let you "bump" the time it saves up or down a minute (or multiple minutes). So you can either correct it before you even capture the time of the car coming in, or if you realize that it's a problem after you hit the split button, you can bump it up or down then.

It would be easier to show you... oh wait, yes, we have online training videos! :) Here it is in under 90 seconds:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0mfRtPGdFWk&index=1&list=PL9P7uHuYJsWdKi29elx4BDUfWVgcF-qBQ

For anyone worried about abuse... the ACTUAL time that the button was actually pressed, down to the millisecond, is recorded also and saved right along with whatever gets edited. So the scoring guy gets that data too. Now that we have that, we end up looking at it a couple times each rally to decipher "what really happened" out there when we get inquiries claiming "oh, the control was so backed up". We call it "forensic scoring". ;)

and it does seem that back east there are significantly more booking in early/late penalties than saw out here in the PNW
Unsurprisingly, when you use computer software that automatically finds and calculates check-in penalties, it finds them all. The NRS scoring software is the only system in the US that does this. In the other systems, your check in time is never even entered into the computer, it's just a human looking at cards. Maybe they find it, maybe they don't. Maybe they only find the big ones, or the ones they saw happen in person. Even "back east" you'll see that the "more penalties" happens only at events with this automatic detection.

Gotta do your math right people. ;) But the penalty calculation part of it is actually at a different level of "the scoring system". The Nook clocks are "data collection" only and don't decide on any penalties... they just record times and car numbers. They rely on someone further up the chain to take responsibility for that. ;)

Anders
 
#18 ·
Glad to hear that Anders. Guess if what some people are saying about some workers not being rigid with following the rules and scoring possibly not time barring people who exceed MPL are correct, you need to remind your volunteers to follow the rules and avoid making decisions that may break your rules. Rumors abound about NRS rallies being liberal with time bares and penalties at ATC's and MTC's so sincerely hope the rumors and what has been posted are incorrect but, reminders are a good thing especially with new volunteers. Thanks,
 
#19 ·
Dave, I can only suggest you read NRS's time barring rules as from your statement, it appears you think they are the same as SCCA/RA. They are significantly different. With NRS, volunteers in the field or in sweep or at service don't declare anyone over MPL, so they literally can't be liberal with time barring, as they don't get to do it. That's a function of the higher ups.

Anders
 
#21 ·
Dave, I can only suggest you read NRS's time barring rules as from your statement, it appears you think they are the same as SCCA/RA. They are significantly different. With NRS, volunteers in the field or in sweep or at service don't declare anyone over MPL, so they literally can't be liberal with time barring, as they don't get to do it. That's a function of the higher ups. Anders
I am aware of that Anders and with RA it is the same and need a higher authority to time bar somebody and since they all are volunteers, it is still the volunteers or the higher ups if some people are being paid that need the reminders about enforcing the time bar rules unless there is an unusual situation and a bulletin is issues or something is posted on the notice board that time bars are being waived for everyone. Would never want a volunteer who is not an official time bar anyone. Even officials are volunteers. Have seen cases of lateness exceeding 30 minutes yet the competitors were considered finishers.
 
#23 ·
I am aware of that Anders and with RA it is the same.... Have seen cases of lateness exceeding 30 minutes yet the competitors were considered finishers.
Sigh. No, it's not the same as RA Dave. And exceeding 30 minutes lateness (or whatever published number) and still being a finisher could absolutely happen AND BE WITHIN THE RULES at NRS. As I've already said, the rules are different.

You're worrying about something happening at an NRS event that is completely legal for NRS but would not satisfy RA rules. I really can't help you here: the NRS events operate on the NRS rule book, not the RA rule book. On the topic of MPL, the philosophy and implementation of these rules is significantly different between the two organizations. Print them out. Put them next to each other. I don't know what to tell you. It's like you're standing on a street corner yelling at some kid for driving on the wrong side of the road... but you're in England. That's the side they're supposed to drive on there.

Anders
 
#20 ·
There is an underlying thought that I've heard for a couple years, mostly from the RA camp that NRS runs a loose ship. I've heard it from several people and in several areas of conversation. While both Anders and Kris put on their own events, NRS technically doesn't organize an event neither does RA. The events are all put on by organizers and volunteer help, regardless of sanctioning bodies. As such each event will have general guidelines to run under but will have its own flavor and 'personality' . As one of the few organizers to actually have sanctioned the same event with both sanctioning bodies I can say I have not seen any significant differences in desires or procedures over a 10 year period of doing so. I've bent a few rules with both sanctioning bodies to keep things flowing smoothly and I've seen Stewards from both sides bend a few rules also. Life without flexibility wouldn't be much fun after a while.
 
#22 ·
Don't disagree at all with you Gene regarding needing some flexibility being needed and I've done that myself at times. As long as they're done by someone with the authority do do that, that they are applied to all applicable competitors uniformaly and they are included in bulletins or at least posted on the official notice board or in an extreme case announced at the awards so everyone is aware of the situation.
 
#24 ·
I hope I did not give the idea that the NRS rules/behaviors are at fault for anything or in some way bad. To clarify: they are absolutely clear and right - *I* as a competitor just get complacent enough with them that I make mistakes. The ATC is certainly allowed to wave us in early and offer us our minute - it's very helpful in avoiding road blockages, etc, which is nice. Or if the rally is delayed, tell us to check in later and we will get proper minutes regardless - this can be good for dealing with stage situations that need attention more than ATC checkins.

They aren't obligated to do this, was more my point, and if you get complacent as a co-driver and assume they will, you suddenly find yourself with an early arrival penalty.

As both a control worker and a competitor - I prefer this to my experiences with RA. Which have been firmly rigid, even in the events of massive stage issues and queues of 50 cars on icy roads with no room, when I have to jump from the car and try to run 1/2 mi up the road to get to the clock on time for.. well, really no good reason at all in that scenario. It's a burden on the control workers who are trying to deal with the stage situation to get things moving too - and it does them no good either.
 
#26 ·
I absolutely think they should and should be empowered to. Net Control definitely doesn't need to be dealing with ATC problems if they're dealing with something like a red cross on stage. Unintended consequences come up either way - and the requirement for a chairman/control captain/etc to make that call when they are likely not present is not great.
 
#27 ·
A lot of your observations really depend on the control crew. When I work a control and there's a big backup, I'd rather keep the road clear than clog it up with competitors trying to check in on time. It's obvious that the competitor is at the control "on time" or would have been without the backup. I'll often walk back and just ask what time they'd like and record the answer. Just as in a normal ATC, as long as the math is correct- no penalty. A less experienced crew or one that's short staffed may not do that. They may not know that that's one way to solve issues such as you describe.
That said , I have seen controls where for staffing or other physical reasons, the control crew is unable to that. Then we're back to the "running of the co-drivers". In my mind ,it's better to keep the road clear of bodies and cars until the situation gets solved.
In the Upper Midwest- Michigan and Minnesota, it's pretty common to share the worker base. So a control crew could possibly work 2 RA events in MN., 2 or 3 RA events in MI and a NRS event in da Yoop. Without reviewing the rules , the usual difference is when the time is taken- pretty much everything else runs the same. Those differences should have been covered in the control crew briefing before heading out to the stages. It's least confusing to the crew if the procedures between sanctioning bodys are as similar as possible. Let the scoring crew fix the differences. Ander's scoring system makes it easy to sort those issues out.
 
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