RWD vs. FWD, which is a good lead into AWD? - Page 2
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Thread: RWD vs. FWD, which is a good lead into AWD?

  1. #11
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    everyone's right.. lol

    ya awd cars handle as a mixture of rwd and fwd. fwd techniques transfer over to awd turbo really really well. (not the jump i made) I've only raced a FWD 1.8 impreza, awd 2.5 impreza (non turbo), and awd Turbo . (have driven rwd around in a drift practice, some dirt and snow playing around, but not in a serious on the lock way)

    ya final drive makes a BIG difference in your cars acceleration, and thus makes it easier to be competitive.

    Ultimately you do need a pick a car that's affordable for you to campaign , like a few people have said. look at your local pick and pulls, and craigslist, cars.com blah blah to make sure your area has some. you can definitely go out of region to buy your car. despite being in tahoe (loaded with subarus) i went 4 hours away to SF to pick one up , cause that was the best deal i could find.

    if your pick and pulls have a lot of volvos driving off far to buy a running one isn't a problem. (same for any other make/model that works)

    really we can't give the perfect advise with out knowing what cars are in your area, if you have access to cheap labor for any particular car , what past driving experience you have (or didn't) , cash to throw at rally per month, etc... how patient/determined you are is also a big factor.
    Welcome to Rally Addicts anonymous! Hi I'm Alex Rademacher, and i have a Rally problem..... 23 rallies and counting....

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  3. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveCotie View Post
    I think ACP has answered this question in other threads.

    He has a rallied anything from a FWD Lada to an AWD Mitsu and I think he is working on an old RWD Fire Arrow.

    If I recall correctly the answer was FWD skills are the most transferable to AWD.
    No he didn't answer, he, like all the others, simply asserted an opinion. And based it on "authority"..."Ive done everything" is hardly a reasoned explanation.

    That's one person's opinion, and an opinion missing any previous even amateur level of RWD rally experience...I seem to remember on a phone conversation we had years ago when he was just beginning he said he had an old Volvo Amazon 122 that he did some "road rallies" with when he was in University in England...

    And, since it is pretty well established that the level of competition in North America is approximately equivalent to a bunch of people finding an empty lot at the corner and having a informal baseball game, the opinions formed SOLELY in that level of competition are, mildly put, by any larger measure.......not worth an awful lot.

    but it is a moot point. The "received wisdom " here in North America is driving anything ---no matter what the specification, size, length, width, power or lack of, gearing--and lack of---is paramount. "Just get a car and learn to drive" has been the line thrown out since the last 30 years...

    I foolishly thought--until very recently---that people wanted to drive rally cars---and thought that there were things that defined a RALLY car...

    Now with the wisdom from all the Subaru drivers I understand that sticking a cage and some seats and slapping a zoot capri paint job and lots of stickers, and buying the same firesuit and helmet as they see on You-tube is all that is needed to make people happy...

    And that Anders Green's shocking statistic that 43% of all people do a total of 3 rallies (and 26-27% do 1 event) before disappearing from the sport forever has other roots than the poor bastards building boring, warmed over Econc-boxes and not having enough excitement to carry them over the down time from their noob blunders..
    In other words the horrible hemorrhaging of participants is explained by "Shit Happens" so the only reasonable conclusion is
    John Vanlandingham
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    Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

  4. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by koolaid View Post
    you know this got me thinking, there seems to be a new thread of, hey i want to rally what should I get like every week. We need to just have a sticky list of people that have driven multiple cars in rally and ask them what they liked the best. Kind of like a Top gear Rally testing situation. Because with me sitting here on my couch I can see that Chris Duplessis won a 2wd championship a few years back in a ford fiesta R2 for like 50 grand? I couldn't find a good price on the R2 setup, but still 50 grand plus. So if I take the 20/80 principal and apply it to rally what do I get. I need to spend 10 grand on a car and I get 80 percent of the fun/experience/speed/learning. So if I can find a car that costs 20% to maintain and a car that can be kitted out with the basics then I can have 80% of the good stuff, which 80% is pretty damn good when you aren't trying to break the budget and you have never rallied before.

    Disclaimer I still have not ever been to a rally, just bought my first rally car. I have no real world experience. I am just speculating.

    So if you use the 20/80 principal then you just need to find a car that can be kitted out for 10 grand, and be maintained for cheap, meaning not hard to find parts/tools/tires and wheels. I have read some rally forums from different countries that have more rallies then we do. They recommend FWD for beginners or rwd E30's. The euro peons seem to have a better idea and the thing is yes the preach about FD as well to get that free HP.

    So here is what you do find a few cars for sale/or that you want to build. Then put that car in craigslist search and see how many freebie cars/parts you can get for it in your area.

    Now John has argued that volvos are awesome and snazzy, thing is I didn't find a single volvo near me on craigslist. So what would that do for me down the road when i need parts.

    Maybe in John's area he has volvos like crazy. Maybe they are cheap to build and maintain while making lots of power, but for me I would have to buy shit halfway across the country. I just don't know if that is a good idea to not have spares of your car within grasp.

    So to answer the original question, which is most like AWD, FWD or RWD I have no answer. I have only rallycrossed AWD and FWD. I can tell you that with both cars you have to do things differently. I can also tell you I would bet FWD just because Ford motosport academy uses FWD cars, but who knows. I need to drive RWD to give you an answer.

    The question is not about finding the road car to start with...or the knowledge to keep a road car going.
    Our problem is in finding the PARTS that make a road car into a reasonable facsimile of a RALLY car...at an affordable price for the non-millionaires and trustafarians..

    They can go out and buy---the key to happiness in America---a ready built Ford Fiesta with a fantastic Sadev gearbox with close ratios and the right final drive and decent soized CV and drive axles, a good LSD, a great little 1.6 motor and, if they are any good do 3rds and 4ths overall...
    do you have $70,000?

    You don't have to do a Volvo---there are plenty in the country---there are roads going to and from Oklahoma City...You may have to drive a bit.the point is between Volvos, Xratties, and even Fox bodied Mustangs there are nice 2300cc engines with EASY power potential to make more than enough power for anybody very easily. N.a. or turbo...and --if a person bothers to glance a little at them--utterly reliably.

    There are gearboxes which are excellent gearsets when coupled with the powerband of a warmed over 2300 motor, and final drive ratios and diffs can actually be found at junk yard prices... (I've got whole MkIII Supra diff units with LSD and 4.3 ratio for prices from free to $32.75 to $50 and $75....or maybe as much as $125----you will never find a Honda, Golf, Focus, Fiesta, Sentra, ANY rally-worthy FWD gearbox, diff or final drive in a junk yard for those kind of prices)

    But as i now understand, its not important..

    Get any car.. Get one of these...its FWD so everything it does will transfer to AWD




    which is the only point of driving a 2wd car.

    Right?
    John Vanlandingham
    Sleezattle, WA, USA
    www.rallyrace.net/jvab
    www.rallyanarchy.com

    Telephone +1 206 431 9696
    Rememeber the time zone difference

    Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

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  6. #14
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    If your heart is stuck on ending up in an AWD car why not just start out in an open lites NA AWD car. It won't be crazy fast and you'll have to work hard to keep up good corner speed to get good speed on the straights. Then when you have enough coefficients, you can turbo it. Any format of drivetrain will require a different skill to make it fast and if you understand how to feel speed well you will adapt to anything easy or if not you will adapt over time. Having more traction initially will probably make you pretty lazy on keeping good corner speed, but as you start to compete and push harder you'll learn how to scrub just enough speed and corner faster.

  7. #15
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    k so how i understand it john,

    volvo/merkur/mustang (which is what you pointed out)

    VS the competition

    LB for LB and price for price will be better than anything out there, plus it will be more "exciting per $$$"

    So lets say that those cars follow the 20/80 principal perfectly and they can keep the excitement level of the 20/80 up for longer. Whereas the 20/80 principal of a honda/golf is more of a 30-40/80 principal

    Makes perfect sense.

    Yes there are roads from OKC, yes I could have purchased said cars. I just went the way I did because that is what happened.

    Still I have not rallied before, I am as new as the OP. I also made my purchase of a honda because I had honda's in high school and I know that I can replace parts for it super cheap as well. I also feel like I will not exceed the cars potential for a very long time.

    But yes john i finally see what you have been screaming about.

    10,000 dollar volvo/mustang/merkur = 15-20,000 everything else rally car

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    if you start FWD you'll be itching to get to AWD, if you start RWD you'll never want to campaign anything other then RWD.

  9. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by koolaid View Post
    k so how i understand it john,

    volvo/merkur/mustang (which is what you pointed out)

    VS the competition

    LB for LB and price for price will be better than anything out there, plus it will be more "exciting per $$$"

    So lets say that those cars follow the 20/80 principal perfectly and they can keep the excitement level of the 20/80 up for longer. Whereas the 20/80 principal of a honda/golf is more of a 30-40/80 principal

    Makes perfect sense.

    Yes there are roads from OKC, yes I could have purchased said cars. I just went the way I did because that is what happened.

    Still I have not rallied before, I am as new as the OP. I also made my purchase of a honda because I had honda's in high school and I know that I can replace parts for it super cheap as well. I also feel like I will not exceed the cars potential for a very long time.

    But yes john i finally see what you have been screaming about.

    10,000 dollar volvo/mustang/merkur = 15-20,000 everything else rally car

    Exactly.. I really and truely love and believe in my old Saab 96...Its 2020 lbs with 6 gallons of fuel and a spare and a jack++way overbuilt.
    Stock is 2,2 turns steering, stock is bigger discs than the Xratties and Volvos---which go waaaaaaaaaaaaaay faster as turbos and weigh 800lbs more.
    Used to get 2-3 a year for free. Super easy engine---cruse all iron and pushrods but stock 90mm bore and either 56.8mm or for the "Big Block 1700" 66.8mm stroke so room for huge valves (37mm in and 31 mm ex was stock and I used 42/36 for a long time then when I got gaskets and bored to to 94mm I use 44.5mm intakes and 38mm exhausts---cheap! Pistons I used VW forged which used to cost (retail) $152/set (under 130 for me and I'd sell the barrels back for $5 each)
    The close ratio box, all steel clutch plate diff and a 5.85 ring and pinion factory rebuilt cost $345 (+ $365 to fly it in)
    And I love how it goes...

    I know that there is ONE major FWD advantage cause I used it (what I know best in the world is what I devoted 20 years to and became pretty good at--and spent 2 seasons travelling all over Western Europe --mostly France---and even as far as South Africa and living on 9and saving) Start Money and all those moto-cross bikes were all RWD) and that is you can really get the car insanely sideways and its OK cause all the rear wheels are going to to is scrub, and since my car was a rally car, and thus had a GOOD clutch plate diff (set at 95-120 ft/lbs breakaway torque) while the rear end is scrubbing and slowing down, I could concentrate on gassing it and exiting....
    Get that sideways in a RWD car and you flub the application of gas, you are going to rotate....done that enough times.

    That is THE one advantage for learning..
    Thing is 99% of the noobs getting into the sport aren't getting crazy 90 sideways on entrances, they fucking around worrying about jerk-off crap like "Left foor braking" and "trying to maintain momentum thru the corners" since they read forums and all the so called schools hammer that line of shit into people's heads...

    I din't worry about LFB--as my old friend Dave Clark said once while co-driving "Well gawddam you don't have to LFB. You have the brake balance just right 9and I brake hard enough to lighten the back--and a leeeetle twitch will send the ass end out and we be sideways--(and all it does is scrubs).
    I din't worry about "momentum thru the corners--because I braked later and harder--in a straight line---and then I had some OK power (11:1 comp and either 5.85 or mostly 5.43:1 final; drive) and the car jumped back up to speed OK (the place I gnashed a lotta teeth was at higher speeds like 80 to 100. when I'd back off at those speeds, it hurt cause it took more time to get back UP to speed vs the turbo cars which were increasingly popular--first the 323s and then the 2.0 Mitsubishi Eclipses and Talons.. Different class but I always shot for as high Overall as I could...

    You siad you got a Honda--GOOD!.. The chassis aren't the greatest and the suspension is weird but you can get those M-Factory half gear kits, final drives and diffs....and threre's things that can be done for the morphodite suspension (just did a set for a local guy, and we will be working on making junk stronger. And year they cost something but at least there is SOMETHING pretty damn good....not end of the world but who the fuck are we to imagine we need 'end of the world stuff"? And the engines...aaaahhhhh, such nice engines....such Lego-ability, that's a great advantage for a club guy..

    See all these numb-nuts guys do what 'Merikuns always do : they speak in abstractions and theoretical hoo ha--and plain bullshit..
    Get into the details and then one can learn--and gawd knows we all have a lot to learn---except that clique in St Louis.
    measure..make notes, count teeth, do some math. weigh junk... Everything in life should be a continuous learning experience...and there is nothing wrong with saying "derp derp! I dunno COMMA!!! let's find out..

    So while I lurv my Saab 96, and I helped friends make some kick ass 99 and 900s, TODAY there's some actual dollarsd and sense reasons for vigorously advising people to get into a car they can make into a "pretty damn good" rally car..

    By the way, just helped a "cousin" of mine in Houston Tex-ass get a nice stripped out oragne Volvo 240 this summer. he doesn't know for nuthin so it'll get a cage locally before he brings it back....All he had to do was call, fly up, I picked him up and we went and paid for it---and he drove home in the 740 turbo wagon--with manual trans I'd found him... easy.
    Now all we need is for him to send the gawddam money for cage material--along with the other 2 numb-nuts who are getting 240 cages at the same time..
    gawddam kids!
    John Vanlandingham
    Sleezattle, WA, USA
    www.rallyrace.net/jvab
    www.rallyanarchy.com

    Telephone +1 206 431 9696
    Rememeber the time zone difference

    Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

  10. #18
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    but ya, if you are hell bent on a turbo open car. start with an impreza or legacy... there's one on here for sale that is currently in open light trim, but comes with an open (tubo) motor and stuff needed to make that swap work.

    boiling it down, is a good way to look at it. 20/80 principle or just "what's fast enough to keep me interested, but still cheap enough that i can keep showing up"

    I grew tired of racing in a 1.8 before i made the switch to a 2.5. and that dialed up the fun factor a lot for me.. but now i want to make my car handle differently (for more fun) I want a bit more torque so i can slide the car around with the throttle alone ... and i already have a 10k rally car... so now i have to drop like 2K into the motor to hopefully get enough TQ to drive around like the mad hatter. (not sure if that made any sense)

    so picking the right car off the bat is good. for me it worked great cause i got to train with a slower car , that was upgradable. i actually stayed with the sport past 3 rallies, and haven't totaled my car yet... both are a bit rare . while my plan worked out amazingly well ... for me , its definitely not a 1 size fits all deal.

    I sorta ruined my budgeting by buying better suspension before i could afford it, and then buying a spare set after i lost out on a 3rd OA at a national (Nasa.. so like a JV national lol) due to no spares .. then i made other bad choices got off track and blah... now i'm on a (financial) time out... lol
    Welcome to Rally Addicts anonymous! Hi I'm Alex Rademacher, and i have a Rally problem..... 23 rallies and counting....

  11. #19

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    If you're ultimate goal is AWD then why bother with FWD or RWD? Just build a Subaru and go rally.
    Grant Hughes - 1985 Merkur XR$TI Group 5
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  12. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by granthughes View Post
    If you're ultimate goal is AWD then why bother with FWD or RWD? Just build a Subaru and go rally.
    There you see the way knowledge is transmitted, Grant... Do you see?

    That is logical and direct....But the "Greek Chorus"* didn't sing a droning lamentation to "use your brains", they sang "FWD IS BEST TO START WITH---FWD is whachoo want if you want to be like the Heroes you saw on You-tube fwd fwd fwd fwd fwd fwd fwd fwd fwd fwd fwd fwd fwd fwd fwd fwd fwd fwd fwd fwd fwd fwd fwd fwd fwd fwd fwd fwd fwd fwd fwd fwd fwd "

    The question that puzzles me is WHY anybody would want to dream of AWD before they have even experienced rally in a GOOD---well prepared---2wd car.

    *It has been explained to me that most even slightly gear headed 'Merikuns have less than zero idea of any what is commonly called "cultcha" (culture).
    thus many metaphors, or metophorical references, very appropriate, mildly funny are read as confused irrational "ranting" by they crude, primitive louts.
    So I will footnote or link to 'splain the cryptic literary and "cultcha" reference, so that maybe these poor "head in a whole in the groud" ignorant fawks can finally begin to be exposed to something other than their bleak inchoate, consumer product driven lives
    Greek Chorus:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_chorus
    Last edited by John Vanlandingham; 10-12-2014 at 10:12 AM.
    John Vanlandingham
    Sleezattle, WA, USA
    www.rallyrace.net/jvab
    www.rallyanarchy.com

    Telephone +1 206 431 9696
    Rememeber the time zone difference

    Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

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