RWD vs. FWD, which is a good lead into AWD?
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Thread: RWD vs. FWD, which is a good lead into AWD?

  1. #1
    i wanna go fast.
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    Default RWD vs. FWD, which is a good lead into AWD?

    Hello Drivers!

    I was not sure where to post this question, so I decided to pick here since I am looking for feedback from drivers.

    I am a newb, never drove any car for competition on dirt, and am trying my best to get into some sort of rallying this year. Like most people, I dream of blasting through the woods in a sweet AWD race car, and that is still my end goal. I have no problem building my own car, but with respect time and cost, my immediate goal is buying a used car in the hopes of getting seat time during the 2015 season.

    So this is my question, since I'm a soley focued on seat time and cost, I am looking at prepper FWD and RWD cars (honestly because they same cheaper). Since my goal is AWD, which car do you drivers believe prepare you best for the jump to AWD?

    I've done tons of internet (hopefully not full of lies) research on how FWD car control is focused on mastering left foot braking during the corner to control oversteer. This seems super cool, and a great way to practice car control.

    RWD I haven't much as much research. In my head, I feel that AWD and RWD are similiar in corner entry use the rear brake bias to iniate oversteer and maintain it via throttle.

    I could be horrbily wrong with my research, which is why I am posting this question, which car handles similiar to AWD car and best prepares you for the jump?



    My goals for 2015 are buy a used rally car, attend local rallyx's, then possible enter one NASA rally event with the car (not sure on this part). Then I want to go to Rally school (here it is team O'neil) so I have at least a little expierence before heading out there.

    First part of this involves the car, any input guys?


    thanks for your time!

    p.s. I want to clarify I am not trying to find which is faster, FWD vs RWD, just which is a better learning tool for AWD.

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  3. #2
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    The majority will say FWD, there will be a few minorities who will rant and rave that RWD must be the best.

    However, it's whatever will get you on stage, keep you happy, and let you get more seat time. General feeling is that RWD is a lot more fun, and in the right hands will be just as fast as any FWD car.

    Whatever car you can find that is already prepared, whether it is FWD, RWD, or AWD will be best. Seat time is king, not drivetrain layout.
    #542 - 1991 Subaru Legacy Open Class

  4. #3
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    Doesn't matter what kind of car...seat time is the most important...
    So doesn't matter is you use a


    Or a



    Or a



    Or a


    or a



    Doesn't matter, seat time is king.....that's what everybody says, that's excellent advice and it's repeated often enough on the Intra-web so it just has to be true..
    Has to...


    So don't bother saying how old you are, what budget you have, what skills you have, what other sports or motorsports you may have done, none of that matters, just seat time is king...just get any car and enter events and the sooner the better...
    John Vanlandingham
    Sleezattle, WA, USA
    www.rallyrace.net/jvab
    www.rallyanarchy.com

    Telephone +1 206 431 9696
    Rememeber the time zone difference

    Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

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  6. #4
    Uh Oh, UH OH, UHH OHHH!!! johnhuebbe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by desant78 View Post
    My goals for 2015 are buy a used rally car, attend local rallyx's, then possible enter one NASA rally event with the car (not sure on this part). Then I want to go to Rally school (here it is team O'neil) so I have at least a little expierence before heading out there.

    First part of this involves the car, any input guys?
    Either FWD or RWD. Both have good points on how your future AWD will handle. But, I wouldn't get hung up about it. You'll need to first learn general car control.

    IMHO, the best car for you would be something that is cheap to maintain, well built & sorted, and something you are comfortable with. You will need to balance your rally goals, the car (upfront and ongoing maintenance costs) and how much money you have each year. If you want to drive a lot yet have little money, don't pick some uber Subaru.

    Quote Originally Posted by John Vanlandingham View Post
    So don't bother saying how old you are, what budget you have, what skills you have, what other sports or motorsports you may have done, none of that matters, just seat time is king...just get any car and enter events and the sooner the better...
    Tongue firmly in cheek?
    Behold the POWER of cheese! www.huebberally.com
    Organizer: 100aw.org & perryville.100aw.org/ | Rally Cars: 1970 VW Beetle & 1991 Subaru Legacy

  7. #5
    your other left, you idiot
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    Welcome to the looney bin.

    Read the stickies.

    Come to some events. Work/volunteer at those events so you find out things work. Crew for somebody.

    Don't get hung up of what letters the event is (NASA/RA/CARS/whatever - well, maybe the whatever one...).

    Get a passport/enhanced drivers license (if NJ has those), so you can go to Canada.

    Don't worry about which end drives the car. Soon you will see the light and get that AWD out of your system...

    Have fun.

    press on,
    just a poor, dumb, Michigan(now Wisconsin) navie
    KC8YHT
    jimmy

  8. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnhuebbe View Post
    Either FWD or RWD. Both have good points on how your future AWD will handle. But, I wouldn't get hung up about it. You'll need to first learn general car control.

    IMHO, the best car for you would be something that is cheap to maintain, well built & sorted, and something you are comfortable with. You will need to balance your rally goals, the car (upfront and ongoing maintenance costs) and how much money you have each year. If you want to drive a lot yet have little money, don't pick some uber Subaru.

    Quote Originally Posted by John Vanlandingham View Post
    So don't bother saying how old you are, what budget you have, what skills you have, what other sports or motorsports you may have done, none of that matters, just seat time is king...just get any car and enter events and the sooner the better...
    Tongue firmly in cheek?
    Oh no not all all.. All the experienced Subaru drivers always tell every single persons the exact same thing and none have EVER asked the poor innocent bastid that wander in here full of hope and excitement what their skill level mechanically, age, budget, previous motorsport experience is, nothing, so obviously they know, in advance GREAT TRUTHS learned in their 2 or 3 or 4 years of rallyracing their near stock Subarus and installing a few stockish parts in same..
    Clearly attempting to find if there is something in a noobs background that they may not even had thought is potentially relevant is folly..

    Taking the time to attempt to discuss with noobs as humans, questions and answers leading to the next questions, known as dialog in places where there is the concept of "discussion" is stupid... Its ranting and raving as your buddy said. Who needs discussing when they know it all---before meeting the innocent noob?
    So doesn't matter who the guy is, seat time is king, doesn't matter what car, build anything because the guy has already decided he's ready to throw away $5-6-8 thousand dollars because he wants to drive an AWD car...

    How about a stretched AND donked Suzuki Samuri? it's be unique...and that's important to be noticed. and so ironically named...You know what they do when they lose a battle!!!
    John Vanlandingham
    Sleezattle, WA, USA
    www.rallyrace.net/jvab
    www.rallyanarchy.com

    Telephone +1 206 431 9696
    Rememeber the time zone difference

    Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

  9. #7
    100 K right 2
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    sometimes i read this forum or any american rally forum and think to myself would i ever take financial advice from a person in the same exact position as me? I mean who here on this forum giving advice has actually won a rally outright against "good" drivers.

    I do not offer an opininion I just am pointing something out.

    I have not even rallied a car on a stage, so you can disregard what I say. I just merely am pointing out a fact of life, don't take advice from people that are just blowing smoke.

  10. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by koolaid View Post
    sometimes i read this forum or any american rally forum and think to myself would i ever take financial advice from a person in the same exact position as me? I mean who here on this forum giving advice has actually won a rally outright against "good" drivers.

    I do not offer an opininion I just am pointing something out.

    I have not even rallied a car on a stage, so you can disregard what I say. I just merely am pointing out a fact of life, don't take advice from people that are just blowing smoke.
    You bring up a good point..
    Reality: anybody with a keyboard is both an expert and a re-seller...

    But maybe you don't know but many people in motorsports where the results can to a large degree be 'bought'--most amateur racing on asphalt for example---smooth surfaces and non-physical---many of the "winners' really don't know shit about anything---they hire people to build their shit, bolt on crap out of the box and are totally clueless---and real swell fellas.
    An honest example....I have always maintained that it is important--a central thing in fact--to be able to optimise final drive for the task at hand...in the motorsport where i was one of those things we used to call "professional" because i paid the rent and bought food and cars and trucks and airplane tickets with what I was paid--before the word came to mean "somebody who throws around a lotta dough screaming LOOK AT ME!!!!!!!!"----I could change final drive ratio in a couple of minutes: a circlip and different countershaft sprocket, re adjust the chain and presto 4.41 becomes 4.1 final drive...
    Now when i started back in '84 there was Buffum and Kreibich in Audi turbo awd cars, Millen in his crazy RX7 and we just didn't really think too much about that, but after the end of the GpB days the cars at the VERY TOP of the WORLD looked like real cars and they had to make 5000 minimum and that meant they might filter down to "us" one day...

    So I built/and or supplied for various friends very good n.a. rally engines and shocks springs steering racks, brakes...they didn't know shit for anything, not a thing..Clutches, gears, final druives, Clutch plate diffs, brakes...clueless...typical car guys...Read "all the books" (all full of theoretical bullshit about poofter roadrace formula 1-2-3-3000-ford-VW junk--useless) where i'm talking tooth counts, setting diff braeak away, burning phone lines talking to guys faster than anybody here but Buffum and Millen maybe--

    Along comes a guy from SoCal with a Subaru Le-gassy in "Group A" oooooOOOOOOOoooooooo!,,AAAaaaaaahhhhhhh!! the car is Subies answer to Ford Sierra and Misterbitchy Gaylant, both excellent cars.....and fun to see at WRC and GB/S/SF level National level....
    Now one of the ways you learn things if your not from St Louis is you ask questions and COMPARE AND CONTRAST things.. I knew what the Fords had for box ratios and final drive but I was curious about the "Grooooooop A" Le-gassy. This guys had been around in the So-cal scene (which means squat) and could do OK like top 4-5 national results...so me being friendly guy and stupidly thinking people know what they spend money on I ask "Say ______, what you using in final drive ratios in that Le-gassy?"

    Stuttering , er um, throat clearing , er um more er um "Well you see this is a Group A car and its built to blah blah blah blah so it can't be changed cause its Group A"

    A moron.. I say "I understand Group A, I just built a Group A car myself 5 years ago, There was a choice in the Homologation papers of 5.85:1; 5.43:1, 5.15:1 and 4.88:1 final drives, and there were 3 options on the geasets on top of it... Do you not know what the final drive is? that's OK just say it"

    (I was also seeing what turbo 2.0 cars in general used--when people had the budget and the opportunity....Ford used 4.67 and 4.44, Subie used 4.44 it turned out--this being back in the 40mm days)



    "Its group A it has to be standard, it has to be stock blah blah Pro blah blah PRO blah blah."

    Obviously he knew nothing and like most under-deprived and spoiled people he could not conceive of saying "Gee I have no fawkin clue--shore as hell goes good though!"

    Often people have no even passing familiarity with the most basic stuff on this thing they piss away thousands and thousands of dollars

    The odd thing in these endless stupid which is better things is i stress I have only rallied a FWD car--but and exceptionally good one----and I have said, so if a guy is telling you NOT to do something he did---that ought to generate some questions...right?

    So a statement is not made truer of falser if some putz has come 4th or 5th or even 1st in a "National" or they claim to be a "Pro" because they hired a TV crew to make up some stunts for them, they need to stand up to comparison with logic and precedent.
    precedent in a wider context than a bunch of yahoos.
    Last edited by John Vanlandingham; 10-09-2014 at 10:14 PM.
    John Vanlandingham
    Sleezattle, WA, USA
    www.rallyrace.net/jvab
    www.rallyanarchy.com

    Telephone +1 206 431 9696
    Rememeber the time zone difference

    Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

  11. #9
    100 K right 2
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    you know this got me thinking, there seems to be a new thread of, hey i want to rally what should I get like every week. We need to just have a sticky list of people that have driven multiple cars in rally and ask them what they liked the best. Kind of like a Top gear Rally testing situation. Because with me sitting here on my couch I can see that Chris Duplessis won a 2wd championship a few years back in a ford fiesta R2 for like 50 grand? I couldn't find a good price on the R2 setup, but still 50 grand plus. So if I take the 20/80 principal and apply it to rally what do I get. I need to spend 10 grand on a car and I get 80 percent of the fun/experience/speed/learning. So if I can find a car that costs 20% to maintain and a car that can be kitted out with the basics then I can have 80% of the good stuff, which 80% is pretty damn good when you aren't trying to break the budget and you have never rallied before.

    Disclaimer I still have not ever been to a rally, just bought my first rally car. I have no real world experience. I am just speculating.

    So if you use the 20/80 principal then you just need to find a car that can be kitted out for 10 grand, and be maintained for cheap, meaning not hard to find parts/tools/tires and wheels. I have read some rally forums from different countries that have more rallies then we do. They recommend FWD for beginners or rwd E30's. The euro peons seem to have a better idea and the thing is yes the preach about FD as well to get that free HP.

    So here is what you do find a few cars for sale/or that you want to build. Then put that car in craigslist search and see how many freebie cars/parts you can get for it in your area.

    Now John has argued that volvos are awesome and snazzy, thing is I didn't find a single volvo near me on craigslist. So what would that do for me down the road when i need parts.

    Maybe in John's area he has volvos like crazy. Maybe they are cheap to build and maintain while making lots of power, but for me I would have to buy shit halfway across the country. I just don't know if that is a good idea to not have spares of your car within grasp.

    So to answer the original question, which is most like AWD, FWD or RWD I have no answer. I have only rallycrossed AWD and FWD. I can tell you that with both cars you have to do things differently. I can also tell you I would bet FWD just because Ford motosport academy uses FWD cars, but who knows. I need to drive RWD to give you an answer.

  12. #10
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    I think ACP has answered this question in other threads.

    He has a rallied anything from a FWD Lada to an AWD Mitsu and I think he is working on an old RWD Fire Arrow.

    If I recall correctly the answer was FWD skills are the most transferable to AWD.
    Dave Cotie
    VA3 COT

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