My beater e36 rallycross car - Page 2
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Thread: My beater e36 rallycross car

  1. #11
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    Last weekend was the first rallyx of the year for the AZ rally group.

    I drove AWFUL, but I had a blast. My buddy and brother in law both went and drove my car as well. The way the run groups worked out one of us got to drive in the first run group, and my buddy jumped in and took second in our class behind this beautiful fully prepped MG:



    Driving in the first run group was a huge advantage. Very few ruts, a smooth graded surface, etc. By the time the second run group got out there it was blown out pretty good. Plus they decided to run the water truck pretty heavily between groups, so our first 2 laps were a swamp. The tires grabbed much better than even I thought they would. I had been working like a madman the last few weeks, and working on various things on the car, which led to not much chance to get out and actually DRIVE the car, so I was over-steering a lot. One massive oversteer in a tough section led to an off course donut on lap one. Fun times





    While I personally drove terrible, I think overall the suspension and tires are a huge upgrade over the last event. There was definitely a noticeable difference in the gearing, so I am going to be on the lookout for something a little smaller in the same tread style. It was fun to drive but I had to downshift a lot, and never got out of second.

    Lucas Oil and a local Subie dealership provided prizes for the winners, first time this region has had anything other than plastic trophies. Pretty sweet.

    Tons of photos from the event here if anyone is interested.

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  3. #12

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    In case you are interested, we are running the following spring rates on our E36 rally car:
    350 lb front
    150 lb rear
    This is with rally-valved Bilstein inserts.
    Good luck with it!
    Dave
    Last edited by DaveHintz; 03-02-2014 at 02:49 PM.

  4. #13
    Left 4 into beachball DaveK's Avatar
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    Dave - are your rear springs on the shock bodies (coil overs) or are they in the OEM location?

    I'm running 300f 200r on my e36 hatch (coil overs in the rear).

    Dave

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  6. #14

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    Coilovers with Sellholm strut bodies and Bilstein inserts. Not sure of the valving, but I asked Rikard at Sellholm to use Rally-GB-like valving.

  7. #15

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    Bump!! I'm getting ready to build an E36 M3 sedan into a rally-x car, and I wanted to bounce suspension ideas off some of you guys. The spring rates that both of the Dave's mentioned seem to be very different from normal E36 rates. Are those rates calculated at the wheel taking into account the motion ratio, or are they straight spring rates? All other E36s (granted, they are street cars) seem to run rates roughly 100 to 150 higher in the rear than fronts, but both of the Dave's run much higher rates in the front. Can you explain how you guys came to those rates? Are they more tailored to real rally, or for rally-x? After taking to some knowledgeable E36 people, I seem to think that something like 250f/350r would be a good setup, but after reading your rates, I'm reconsidering. Stock rates for the M3 is somewhere between 105f/335r to 100f/240r to 120f/335r, depending on who you ask and how you measure it.

    I'm currently taking with the guys at Ground Control, who recommended a 500f/600r setup with 8" springs all around. I also talked to the guys at Rogue Engineering, who said they might be able to make a TC Klein setup work. I then called up Bilstein directly and they said they could also put something custom that would work, but they weren't sure about how to set up the spring rates and lengths.

    Another issue is whether to use progressive or linear springs. A bunch of the E30 guys I run with swear that linear springs in the back make the car much more settled compared to progressive, but I can't help but think that the softer initial travel of the progressive springs would help keep the wheels on the ground better.

    I'll post up more complete thoughts later, but I wanted to get the discussion started!
    Nick Drymalski
    http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i1...psa9150958.jpg
    '88 528e Rally-X Car Build Thread- Caged, head swap, etc
    http://www.mye28.com/viewtopic.php?t=116113
    1996 Infiniti I30 DD/Auto-x/Track Events
    http://forums.maxima.org/members-rid...ld-thread.html

  8. #16
    Left 4 into beachball DaveK's Avatar
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    My springs are out at the hub in a coilover mount. Keeping the springs in the OEM location means you'd need a much stiffer spring to equal the 200# spring I'm using.

    On a traditional E36 (meaning NOT a compact), I believe you want to try to keep the spring in the stock location. This saves the knuckle from taking all the forces during a big hit. Brandenburg, Hintz, and possibly Nelson have all had failures at the shock mounting point when running coilovers.

    My JVABS, Ohlins, and others all use linear springs, so I don't see any reason to reinvent the wheel (or add more complication) by messing with progressive springs. I'd bet with progressives, you'd just eat up a bunch of travel easy and be more prone to bottoming out. Unless you lift the car a bunch, there isn't that much bump travel on these cars.

    My $0.02, stop messing around by talking with shops that do primarily road race and street car setup. If you want to keep it on the cheap side of sturdy enough, give JVAB a call, he's built me both 40mm and 50mm bilstein stuff. Not sure what current costs are, but I thought prices were very reasonable for what you get.

    Dave

  9. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveK View Post
    My $0.02, stop messing around by talking with shops that do primarily road race and street car setup.
    Copied for emphasis. Those guys have NO clue on what will work on gravel. Most have no clue what will work outside of a parking lot. Many others are simply repeating or mildly modifying what they heard from the few that were road racing but often trying to find a cheaper setup to poorly mimic a proper one.

    If you are just doing rallycross, just stick with stock springs and Bilstein replacement struts for now. Isn't the M3 slightly shorter so maybe get the base 325i or 328i setup, but make sure to use the M3 top mount. The Bilstein HDs are a little stiffer but also a little pricier.
    Spending more money will just be spending more money. Stock stuff will perform better at rallycross, still performs more than sufficient on street, you'll save money, and you don't have to deal with the harsh ride.

    Sometimes cheaper products that mimic a nicer product are just a cheaper product that will cost you more in long run. Eg. Hot Bits or K-Sport.
    Grant Hughes - 1985 Merkur XR$TI Group 5
    rally.build
    885 Parfet St Ste C
    Denver, CO 80215

  10. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveK View Post
    My springs are out at the hub in a coilover mount. Keeping the springs in the OEM location means you'd need a much stiffer spring to equal the 200# spring I'm using.

    On a traditional E36 (meaning NOT a compact), I believe you want to try to keep the spring in the stock location. This saves the knuckle from taking all the forces during a big hit. Brandenburg, Hintz, and possibly Nelson have all had failures at the shock mounting point when running coilovers.

    My JVABS, Ohlins, and others all use linear springs, so I don't see any reason to reinvent the wheel (or add more complication) by messing with progressive springs. I'd bet with progressives, you'd just eat up a bunch of travel easy and be more prone to bottoming out. Unless you lift the car a bunch, there isn't that much bump travel on these cars.

    My $0.02, stop messing around by talking with shops that do primarily road race and street car setup. If you want to keep it on the cheap side of sturdy enough, give JVAB a call, he's built me both 40mm and 50mm bilstein stuff. Not sure what current costs are, but I thought prices were very reasonable for what you get.

    Dave
    Thank you! When you talked about keeping the springs in the stock location, I assume you were referring to the rear? I did a quick search of JVAB and the website didn't really inspire confidence. What's the best way to get in touch with them? Were those guys with the failures doing real rally stuff with jumps?


    Quote Originally Posted by granthughes
    Copied for emphasis. Those guys have NO clue on what will work on gravel. Most have no clue what will work outside of a parking lot. Many others are simply repeating or mildly modifying what they heard from the few that were road racing but often trying to find a cheaper setup to poorly mimic a proper one.

    If you are just doing rallycross, just stick with stock springs and Bilstein replacement struts for now. Isn't the M3 slightly shorter so maybe get the base 325i or 328i setup, but make sure to use the M3 top mount. The Bilstein HDs are a little stiffer but also a little pricier.
    Spending more money will just be spending more money. Stock stuff will perform better at rallycross, still performs more than sufficient on street, you'll save money, and you don't have to deal with the harsh ride.

    Sometimes cheaper products that mimic a nicer product are just a cheaper product that will cost you more in long run. Eg. Hot Bits or K-Sport.
    Unfortunately the M3 uses different sized springs than the non-M cars, so I can't just install their stock springs. Even at stock height, I'm pretty sure the M3 is way too low. I feel like coilovers are the only way for me to get a little height back, but I'm now wary after reading that they can cause the shock mounting point to fail. What else can I do to raise the car up a bit? Throw on some rubber spring spacers like I did on my E28?

    I spoke with a guy from BW about setting up a Ground Control/Koni setup for me. He said I can spec it with stock length (not shortened for lowered cars) Konis, 8" f/7" r springs, 250f/350r. Total cost would be something like $1100. It seems pretty reasonable to me, but I've never built rally coilovers before. My main competitor in a 318 E30 just converted from stock style H&Rs to a GC setup, and he loves it.

    Let me pose one more question to you guys: generally speaking, where do you fall on the OEM/rubber bushings vs. poly vs. delrin, etc on a rally car? The more I read and hear about Powerflex and other poly bushings is that they can crack easily and break apart. After putting delrin on my street car previously, I'm pretty sure I don't want that anywhere near my rally car. I feel like some new/upgraded rubber bushings throughout the car would do a much better job of keeping the real tough stuff from being so abusive to the body of the car, and I would rather replace a rubber bushings than deal with ripped or bent sheet metal. Are there any mounts that you feel should get special treatment?
    Last edited by 95maxrider; 12-22-2015 at 05:11 PM.
    Nick Drymalski
    http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i1...psa9150958.jpg
    '88 528e Rally-X Car Build Thread- Caged, head swap, etc
    http://www.mye28.com/viewtopic.php?t=116113
    1996 Infiniti I30 DD/Auto-x/Track Events
    http://forums.maxima.org/members-rid...ld-thread.html

  11. #19
    400 flat to crest
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    I have a huge aversion to talking to made-up-names, it seems childish and immature that we should be TRYING to discuss something expensive and important but "wearing" a mask and hiding ostentatiously a name, still though 95max.

    What you read about coilovers damaging mounts is wrong....
    The thing that generates a lot of force--and thus stress on a shock mounting point is the degreee of resistance that the valving in the shock generates..
    Especially on the compression dampening side should somebody chopose to valve it overly stiff as most everybody does.

    The spring does not multiply or increase the force it is resisting--and in any case, its just a couple of hundred pounds per inch of force..Nothing for a M10 or a M12 bolt.
    But the damper can generate up to virtually infinite force if valving is wrong, design of adjusters dis-allows sufficeient pass thru on sqaue edge bumps causing what's called spiking...

    All this little subtle details escapes those who, despite probably never seeing inside one actual shock, go around on every forum speaking loudly, confidently, and wrong.

    And I bet they have race careers at least 3-4 hours long....(on one forum I occasionally look in on the self described "experts" who incidentally say the same BS about adding a 175 in pound spring will snap off mountts and ruin bodyshells brag about "In my racing experience...which is 100% in parking lots in maybe secondd gear for a minute and change at a time and totals perhaps 3 or 4 hours total in his life in a mainly stock--aside from his disasterous choices in springs-car.
    It would be funny if it were no so sad that he advises street/road guys to use springs---with ordinary out of the box KYB or Koni--that were more than 60% stiffer in front than the manufacturer did in WRC with the same basic car, and more than double and a half stiff on the rear than the manufacturer used on tarmac in the WRC. Maddnaess.---But I bet you would feel confidence to read his website...
    John Vanlandingham
    Sleezattle, WA, USA
    www.rallyrace.net/jvab
    www.rallyanarchy.com

    Telephone +1 206 431 9696
    Rememeber the time zone difference

    Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

  12. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by John Vanlandingham View Post
    I have a huge aversion to talking to made-up-names, it seems childish and immature that we should be TRYING to discuss something expensive and important but "wearing" a mask and hiding ostentatiously a name, still though 95max.

    What you read about coilovers damaging mounts is wrong....
    The thing that generates a lot of force--and thus stress on a shock mounting point is the degreee of resistance that the valving in the shock generates..
    Especially on the compression dampening side should somebody chopose to valve it overly stiff as most everybody does.

    The spring does not multiply or increase the force it is resisting--and in any case, its just a couple of hundred pounds per inch of force..Nothing for a M10 or a M12 bolt.
    But the damper can generate up to virtually infinite force if valving is wrong, design of adjusters dis-allows sufficeient pass thru on sqaue edge bumps causing what's called spiking...

    All this little subtle details escapes those who, despite probably never seeing inside one actual shock, go around on every forum speaking loudly, confidently, and wrong.

    And I bet they have race careers at least 3-4 hours long....(on one forum I occasionally look in on the self described "experts" who incidentally say the same BS about adding a 175 in pound spring will snap off mountts and ruin bodyshells brag about "In my racing experience...which is 100% in parking lots in maybe secondd gear for a minute and change at a time and totals perhaps 3 or 4 hours total in his life in a mainly stock--aside from his disasterous choices in springs-car.
    It would be funny if it were no so sad that he advises street/road guys to use springs---with ordinary out of the box KYB or Koni--that were more than 60% stiffer in front than the manufacturer did in WRC with the same basic car, and more than double and a half stiff on the rear than the manufacturer used on tarmac in the WRC. Maddnaess.---But I bet you would feel confidence to read his website...
    Hi John, thanks for chiming in, but I must be missing something because I really don't understand what you're hinting at with your first sentence. I take it you are JVAB? What kind of spring rates would you recommend on an E36 running a coilover setup? Do you build setups for sale? Where do you fall on the rubber vs. poly bushing spectrum?

    Edit: I took the hint and added my name to my signature. The reason I go by 95maxrider is because this is the name I chose when first joining a Maxima forum back in 2001 as a teenager, and although I sold my 95 Maxima way back in 2003, I still go by the name across multiple forums for simplicity's sake. I'm sorry to have offended you with my remark about your website, but when I viewed it last night, it didn't really load on my home computer, but it seems to be working fine here at work.
    Last edited by 95maxrider; 12-23-2015 at 07:32 AM.
    Nick Drymalski
    http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i1...psa9150958.jpg
    '88 528e Rally-X Car Build Thread- Caged, head swap, etc
    http://www.mye28.com/viewtopic.php?t=116113
    1996 Infiniti I30 DD/Auto-x/Track Events
    http://forums.maxima.org/members-rid...ld-thread.html

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