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FIA Seeking to Improve Rollover Protection

16K views 48 replies 16 participants last post by  John Vanlandingham 
#1 ·
Hello, I saw this posted elsewhere and thought I should put it up. http://vimeo.com/68704812 Quite interesting to see what 20MPH to zero in less than 1 second will do... I also found this argument for drivers to wear full face helmets, http://vimeo.com/16765493...
 
#7 ·
What did you see in the second video that made you think of open vs. closed face?
At 1:59 Driver hits the steering wheel hard. From the experts I've talked to, this is very common in big frontal impact scenarios. I remember seeing an in car crash where the drivers face hit the shifter in a big offset frontal crash (but I think that impact was pre SFI 38.1.) I've used a full face since about 2006. http://vimeo.com/16765493
 
#4 ·
If there hadn't been *any* closed car crash studies done, they need to start with single mode tests before mixing it up into more complex scenarios.

They did, I think, publish the results of the welding methods bending tests that they did. Er, NOPE, that was NASCAR.
 
#12 ·
What's is a big challenge for FIA and for us is : the manufacturer of the car like Subaru Mitsu and all the other are all trying to make deformation zone more than the older car.

By our roll cage we work against the manufacturer to stop the deformation.

The car manufacturer are helped in safety with 7-12 air bags to 5 stars safety
 
#13 ·
Sort of.

The manufacturers are required to improve side impact protection, roof crush strength, etc. The bags are a tool to get help get occupant accelerations down in impact scenarios because (particularly in side impacts) there is no extra room or crush space.

What we have working for us that the OEMs don't is that we're willing to tolerate invasive seating systems, helmets, and a lot of straps.

Most of the crush space in areas that I don't think the safety cages occupy.
 
#14 ·
Speaking of rolling and crashing etc, does anyone know how I can get info on how many crashes and/or rollovers occur in stage rally in the U.S. over a full year? I am trying to get some data on what vehicle types (AWD vs. 2WD...turbo vs NA) experience more mishaps. I am also trying to find out if rolling/crashes are more prevalent at certain events vs others; for instance, are there less occurrences at certain more technical (or lower avg speed events) than at higher speed ones? Are there some locations that have more space in case you go "off".
 
#15 ·
Curious. Have you ever been on a rally stage?

There are SO many variables regarding it that I think you could find the data, but it wouldn't mean a thing. Hell on one stage you can have a corner with plenty of runoff room, a corner with a small ditch on the outside, or a corner with a small ditch and a big rock hiding, or a narrow road section with berms on either side, or an exposed corner that has a big dropoff, all of which could easily flip a car whether it be an experienced pro, a first time newb, in FWD, RWD or AWD.

That being said. I've seen more rolled and flipped cars at Ojibwe, but they were relatively low speed, just caught a berm when cutting a corner and whoopsie daisy.

And seems lots of cars have high speed rolls or fall off exposed edges at Olympus and Oregon Trail.

100AW just slams into trees.

Sno*Drift everyone just gets stuck.

NEFR ????

STPR, same with 100AW, tree suckers.
 
#23 ·
yes! I need all the convincing arguments that I can get my hands on. Holding all things equal, I gotta think that there have got to be some events that might have lower average speeds or that might be more technically challenging vs an event that might be incredibly fast....or maybe events that might be more "forgiving" in the event of an off or roll.....no cliffs or sudden drops.....i am treading lightly here but hoping to build my case for when the time comes...
 
#24 ·
Who are you trying to build a case for?

Every event has its dangers... every event I've been too is probably equal they all have trees; sno*drift might be slightly less so depending on how much snow. Point is you're looking for safety which is good, but if you're really going to down to those specifics rally probably isnt for you. Have a good cage, you can do more than a minimum cage. Drive slow your first couple events, but you are racing and you will push yourself eventually and thats where things get tricky.
 
#25 ·
The only 'true' case to be had is that the dangers that are out there are being mitigated through a range of efforts from safety equipment required by sanctioning bodies to stage security and medic support arranged by organizers. The other thing you can do is to assure yourself, and others, that you only do events when the car is properly prepared and you are able to focus solely on the task at hand.
If you think choosing statistically slower events will do anything to make you safer, you're wrong. On of the most serious incidents we've had locally (small sample size, but still important) has been on our slowest road, on a slower corner, involving one of the lower mid-pack cars.
 
#27 ·
From what you/czwalga say, it sounds like the driver controls most of the chances of getting into an accident as a function of how hard he/she purshes the envelope. i guess its a balancing act between pushing hard enough to be competitive and being just cautious enough to not kill yourself. an experience i have yet to have...Thanks
 
#28 ·
..... Yes?

..... This isn't some sort of obstacle course where we throw random things at you, you can either push yourself to become a better driver, and probably experience a few excursions with the local flora along the way, or you can spend $10k+ on a car to putter through at a 35mph average speed and say that you are proud "just to finish". Your choice.
 
#32 ·
hahaha....i think its more of her not wanting to be made a widow. she is actually my #1 fan when it comes to pursuing my goals/dreams....but this rally stuff makes her a little nervous. i think i might have found a compromise with her after speaking with people and doing about 50 pages of reading.......5 day school @ TON. still working out the details.....i am hoping i can parlay that experience/education into giving me firmer ground to compete in a real event though.....
 
#35 ·
Ask her to compare the number of rally deaths in the US compared to the chance of you getting killed driving on the way to work. It's a risky world. You have the risk of getting hurt or killed yes, of course, just like in anything, but nothing much can make you feel more alive than hitting a blind R5/crest and feeling the car get light and sideways at 80-90mph.

Dammit. 100AW needs to hurry up!
 
#37 · (Edited)
If its your wife... take her to a rally. Watch a single corner; she'll freak out when she sees the top guys come through; she'll be like no way in hell you're doing that. Then everyone slowly gets slower... by the time she sees the last guy he'll look like he's going 3mph and she might change her mind.



The problem is... if you do want to race you will have to push your limits at some point otherwise you're just driving down dirt roads; sometimes you just never know where your limits are.



 
#38 ·
If its your wife... take her to a rally. Watch a single corner; she'll freak out when she sees the top guys come through; she'll be like no way in hell you're doing that. Then everyone slowly gets slower... by the time she sees the last guy he'll look like he's going 3mph and she might change her mind.
fking hilarious....and the reality is that I will probably be more like those last few guys buzzing thru @ 3mph! She was at NEFR in 12' when I was volunteering so she did get a taste but maybe she needs another visit!
 
#39 ·
The steady stream of improvements has always been in reaction to what are almost statistically insignificant events.

The changes are made because they can be and because the value of human life is elevated when it's gambled in some option entertainment pursuit.

The fallacious arguments that surround risk to commuters and normal day to day events are non-starters. A person can't remove themselves with the day to day risk pool, so these events are just accepted as part of the hazards of life.

When we choose to add additional appreciable discretionary risk, the hackles are raised, but little or nothing is done about modifying our baseline of usual risky activities.


Your only sensible argument is that you can only assume that the safety standards required by sanctioning bodies, when compared to world wide standards, represent the best current understanding of how to protect occupants engaged in this activity. It's not "safe". Bad shit will still happen to good people. The risk is unknowable, other than to look at past loss of life or injury, and accept that as possible, but probable only at the rate is has historically occurred.
 
#40 ·
The steady stream of improvements has always been in reaction to what are almost statistically insignificant events.

...... The risk is unknowable, other than to look at past loss of life or injury, and accept that as possible, but probable only at the rate is has historically occurred.
is there any source for me to look at that would give me some idea as to "the rate is has historically occurred"? Is there a place for me to download this data or will I need to go to each venues website and download final results and chop the numbers myself?
 
#41 ·
Is your wife a statistician or something? Common sense seems to prevail when people see how much safety is built into these cars. Show her pictures of Ken Blocks cars, of the FY Racing guys at STPR, the mangled up cars that were rolled multiple times (Nick Roberts) and then show the pictures of the guys laughing and smiling later that day. Hell I've got a picture of me and my co-driver standing on top of the car that I just wrecked with our thumbs up after my first rally.

When I tell people the premise of rallying, they think it's unsafe. Until I mention that we are in a full roll cage, full containment seats, 6-point harness, head and neck restraint, fireproof suit, helmet, and gloves. Then you realize that there is a lot of safety built in.
 
#44 · (Edited)
(DISCLAIMER: this isn't intended to be disrespectful, nor is it intended to be a complete list of fatalities in US rally.)

dunno why this is still going on in this thread, but...

I really wish that rally (hell, even motorsports in general) could be covered by something like "Accidents in North American Mountaineering" - http://americanalpineclub.org/p/anam
Unfortunately, it seems a lot easier to do that with "recreation" (with few if any "responsible bodies" aside from the participants), than it is once you're paying someone to insure events, set safety standards, etc.

If you want details, you're going to have to do a lot of digging - there are probably details in SCCA's archives somewhere, all of these incidents do have first-hand sources at least to the aftermath - whether they're willing/interested to share is a different matter. It's probably going to require at least a few phone calls - they're not just going to post here because you asked.

To that end, a list to get you started:

Matthew Marker, 2011, Olympus, Rally-America (http://www.autoweek.com/article/20110501/wrc/110509995)
Mark Lovell and Roger Freeman, 2003, Oregon Trail, SCCA (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Lovell)
Martin Reidy and Peter Smith (Spectators), 2003, Ski Sawmill, SCCA (http://irishecho.com/2011/02/2-irishmen-killed-in-rally-tragedy-2/)
Sandor Kovacs, Jr., 2000, Ski Sawmill, SCCA (http://www.rallyracingnews.com/rallyright/rallyright00-pr2.html)

From the last link:
In the 28 years of Sports Car Club of America's rally program, in which thousands of drivers have raced hundreds of thousands of miles, there have been six fatalities - four drivers and two co-drivers.
 
#47 ·
A friend of mine who snowmobiles, down the same roads we rally on, came up with a 1 to 10 crazy scale.

We each gave each other a 10.

Then things like jumping off bridges attached by just a vine, jumping out of an airplane with no chute (and letting your buddy catch up), and this (below) came up - these are way above 10 (YMMV):

http://vitaminl.tv/video/483

press on,
 
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