Special Stage Forums banner

Unique Rally Cars and why we don't see more of them

24K views 35 replies 21 participants last post by  samk 
#1 ·
As a spectator, I think it gets a little boring to see everyone driving a Subaru or an EVO. This is really relevant when you see the top ones go by at Speed, then you see the rest of them just doing their best.

I would like to see more unique cars out there, racing and you end up cheering for the underdog who is trying his best.

We can discuss any point we want.

I wanted to start with my wonder of why no one has tried to create a new style Celica Rally car (year 2000+). Sure, its only a FWD, but should it not be able to race with some VW Golfs, Fiestas, SRT4 Neons, etc etc etc?

Are they just too fragile to even bother? I'd give it a go someday if it makes sense!
 
#2 ·
People pick cars that are cheap, easy to build/modify, have a history of rally (meaning parts already developed, tested, and for sale), have a familiarity with, or have a love for a particular car. Or, a combination of those.

I love seeing a lot of different cars rally, since you stand out in a sea of Subarus, but at the same time, I'd love to not mess with my car constantly and just have stuff work.
 
#4 ·
IMHO, one of the most important systems on a rally car is the suspension. If it can't be made to work properly for the conditions, you'll either bend or break (and replace) it frequently. Or be driving very slowly. Odds are if you pick one of these cars to prep, you'll be amoung the people who've built a car, entered one or two events, then never we hear from them again. So it depends on your objective and bank account.
 
#5 ·
I think it we be awesome to run a really unique car and to see more of them out there. But yeah, you need to be able to get parts. I bought a Subaru. :(

Not that I am really sad to have a Subaru, any car that gets me out there... Wouldn't be my first pick if I could race anything, though.

Tim.
 
#6 · (Edited)
I wanted to start with my wonder of why no one has tried to create a new style Celica Rally car (year 2000+).


New and different cars mean doing a LOT of development and custom fabrication. With Subarus and Mitsubishi there are global resources of knowledge and parts that are proven to work. (Similar for VW in the 2wd cars)

The celica above did fine, after a lot of development, but certainly didn't do anything extraordinary. (It was a P3 car, not Gr2)

(the 'proof' watermark is from the photog's site, not an ignorant statment of 'proof' that the car exists )
 
#11 ·
New and different cars mean doing a LOT of development and custom fabrication. With Subarus and Mitsubishi there are global resources of knowledge and parts that are proven to work. (Similar for VW in the 2wd cars)

The celica above did fine, after a lot of development, but certainly didn't do anything extraordinary. (It was a P3 car, not Gr2)

(the 'proof' watermark is from the photog's site, not an ignorant statment of 'proof' that the car exists )
Thanks Keith

This is almost exactly what I was thinking about in my head, a Production class Celica. So it is possible, just difficult.

At first, I was just imagining having a Toyota Rally car, and I originally thought about my old Corolla, but why would you start with a corolla when we all have an idea of what it has to offer.

The same question goes to why there does not seem to be many newer Civic rally cars, even if there are much greater numbers when you get into the mid 90's model years. I know I have seen 1 newer model civic in the US, but that is it.

It is just a bit shameful that the only new car you can convert into a reliable 2WD rally car is a Fiesta. I have not seen any others to date.

I agree with everyone saying that you want to have a reliable car and finish rallies. Its more fun that way, cause you get all the mileage. I was also thinking that Toyota is a reliable name, how could we make this work?

Another Idea I have is to start with a late 80's Mustang. RWD would be fun to drive, the class needs the competition and I would think there are several donor cars available for parts. I have not seen any Mustang Rally cars in Canada, and know of only 1 or 2 in the US.

Thanks for the great info guys, keep the ideas coming!
 
#9 · (Edited)
Didn't you just reshell said Celica? Not that I'm complaining, it'll be good to see you back out on stage.

The other, less spoken rule, is run something where there are parts in the parking lot. RWV required the acquisition of an overflow tank cap from a workers car, and the blatant stealing of a transmission mount from one of the guys who was on our crew. Having a popular car will make this easier, and probably means you'll be able to scrounge up crew who know your car as well.
 
#8 ·
Gosh! You all can't imagine the number of phone calls Bob, Mike, and I have fielded over the years from people asking if their "unique name here" would be legal for rally. I'd say the vast majority of those are being considered because they're sitting in someone's driveway. Almost none of them are ever built. Usually because the development would be too difficult and expensive.
JBN
 
#10 ·
X Mon™;420180 said:
Didn't you just reshell said Celica? Not that I'm complaining, it'll be good to see you back out on stage.

The other, less spoken rule, is run something where there are parts in the parking lot. RWV required the acquisition of an overflow tank cap from a workers car, and the blatant stealing of a transmission mount from one of the guys who was on our crew. Having a popular car will make this easier, and probably means you'll be able to scrounge up crew who know your car as well.

Well... kinda. I bought a donor car, but the cage was fine, had to chop off the roof rear quarters, front fender, hood bumper etc.

However for what I paid for the donor car, after the engine and other misc. parts i've sold from it, and the money ill get from the shell at the scrap yard, i'll be down only $200.

If the cage was bent and i had to redo it, I was probably done with the car.
 
#14 ·
The problem with the Celica you speak of, dream of, IMO, is it's low roof line. A car with a low roof line sucks for putting a cage into and after the cage is in place, it's hard to fit people wearing helmets into it safely. You would have to bolt the seat to the floor pan and have one that lays back a bit too, if you're taller than say 5'8". If you've seen my '84 Celica around the web, or the build thread in the construction section here, I can't comfortably even fit into it with a helmet. The seat is about as low as the floor allows and I only have a half cage, so nothing over head. I considered a Mazda MX-3, similar size to te '00-ish Celica, same trouble, too low a roof line for me.

-Jon
 
#16 ·
The yellow celica pictured was actually built buy davenport racing for Bob Olson to run production here in the states. DMS built the struts and seemed to handle pretty good. It's first event was snodrift and hit a tree. Second event was Cherokee trails with a second in class to Jeff fields celica of the same generation. Both celicas did quite well. There was plenty of suspension travel and plenty of power being the gts model. I think it's a pretty good choice. The yellow celica was sold from Bob Olson to th fellow in Canada after bob rolled it in Oregon. Due to rule changes they had to rebuild th cage to match Canadian rules of larger tubbing. They would not except the 1.5x.120 wall main and side hoops. If you like I say build it. Just be ready to put your thinking cap on!
Doug Davenport
www.davenportracingusa.com
 
#17 ·
I'm going with the Mini even though I would prefer a Impreza for all the reasons mentioned. The Mini is going to take a lot of development but as I know Subaru I'm converting most parts over to Subaru to save costs and development. Fitting STI struts was not easy but they work. The reason for the Mini was the topic of the this thread. It's different and will gain me much sponsorship down in Costa Rica. Even David Richards of Prodrive knows what I'm doing. I woundn't get the attention with an Impreza!
 
#19 ·
The Jeep has the durability and parts availability...but still doing the research (trial and error) in figuring out exactly which shocks and valving work has been a pain in the ass.

I do really like the fact that I stick out in the sea of Subarus...even if that means I'm sticking out at the end of the line...
 
#20 ·
OK, thanks for all the info guys! Maybe we could create a list of the things that you should look into first if you want to determine if a street car can be made into a good rally car! Maybe there's already a thread on that one. So far, you seem to need headroom, spare parts, and strong suspension that can accommodate travel. (I heard that is the problem with the new Mini, so that is what "Ugly" has to deal with).

Sadly I'm still broke (unless I sell my house and live in a cardboard box!) so it may be a while for me! If money were no object, I suspect that the new Sonic would make a good rally car too. This is of course based on the Rob Dyrdek kickflip video.
 
#21 ·
Using a 'new' car as a rally car means you have to buy one still. And I'd rather find $1000 civic shell on craigslist than have to shell out $15k on a Sonic.

The only truly important thing is it's what you want. Anything can be made into a rally car. If you want to win, well there are some that are better than others. If you want it to be cheap, there is another short list of those. If you want it to be competitive AND cheap, well then you are probably just going to build another subaru or vw like everyone else.

For more silly inspiration:
http://www.specialstage.com/forums/showthread.php?43295-Most-unusal-car-you-ve-seen-rallying
 
#22 ·
All my rally cars have been competitive and cheap! MK2 Escort, MG Maestro, Subaru legacy, Suzuki Swift GTI and now the Mini. I can't say how the Mini will be but out of my the Subaru was the most reliable. The Legacy never DNF'ed but saying that luck has a lot to do with it as the Swift is really competitve but DNF'ed 3 times due to bad luck.
 
#23 ·
Just got back in from Ojibwe and if anyone is fussing about "all the blue subarus" they haven't been to a rally lately. The only "blue" subaru I saw was a showcar from the local sponsering autodealer, and it looked more Gymkhana than rally. i didn't acually count but there were more Fords and Chevys there than Subarus and the crowd pleasing Fiesta wasn't the Block Hoonmobile, it was a pair of super excited boys from Salem in a 25 year old barnfind!

Unique rally cars are alive and well.
 
#24 ·
Just got back in from Ojibwe and if anyone is fussing about "all the blue subarus" they haven't been to a rally lately. The only "blue" subaru I saw was a showcar from the local sponsering autodealer, and it looked more Gymkhana than rally. i didn't acually count but there were more Fords and Chevys there than Subarus and the crowd pleasing Fiesta wasn't the Block Hoonmobile, it was a pair of super excited boys from Salem in a 25 year old barnfind!

Henry Krolikowski / Cynthia Krolikowski
2000 Subaru Impreza 1:30:28.2 0:00.0 0:00.0
2 339 SP 1 Chris O'Driscoll / Lori O'Driscoll
2007 Subaru WRX 1:37:44.0
3 787 SP 2 Wim van der Poel / Bryan Lord
2005 Mitsubishi Evo VIII 1:37:49.2 7:21.0 0:05.2
4 636 L 1 Samir Kaltak / Rachelle Kaltak
1997 Subaru Impreza 1:40:11.4 9:43.2 2:22.2
5 1 627 G5 1 Robert LaFavor / Derek Beyer
1990 Ford Mustang 1:43:19.2
6 1 92 G2 1 Derek McCorison / Paul Johansen
2003 Hyundai Tiburon 1:43:39.2
7 1 558 G5 2 James Cox / Scott Parrott
2004 Chevrolet S10 1:46:21.0 15:52.8 2:41.8
8 1 426 L 2 Scott McCarty / Alix Hakala
1996 Subaru Impreza 1:46:31.6
9 553 G5 3 Anthony Wood / Sam Wood
1983 Chevy Citation 1:47:25.8 16:57.6 0:54.2
10 128 G2 2 Mychal Summers / Ryan DesLaurier
1987 Mazda RX-7 1:49:12.6 18:44.4 1:46.8
11 542 L 3 Matthew Conte / Ron Erickson
1994 Subaru Legacy 1:49:19.2 18:51.0 0:06.6
12 710 G2 3 Mark Holden / Colin Vickman
1991 Nissan Sentra SE-R 1:51:18.6 20:50.4 1:59.4
13 973 G2 4 John Munroe / Ceilidh Munroe
1973 Toyota Corolla 2:02:43.2
14 654 G2 5 David Grenwis / Josh Cagle
1987 VW GTI 2:12:05.8
237 G2 Micah Nickelson / Tyler Ptacek
1987 Volkswagon Golf GTI DNF
26 G5 Cary Kendall / Scott Friberg
2005 Dodge SRT-4 DNF
911 G2 Ron Malott / Paul Malott
2001 VW Jetta vr6 DNF
661 L Kevin Young / James Dallman
1993 subaru impreza DNF
789 G2 Zach Williams / Kyle Williams
1992 Ford Festiva DNF
906 L Johan Bjorkquist / Eric Benson
1992 Eagle Talon TSI DNF
428 G2 Dan Drury / Timothy Anderson
1989 Suzuki Swift DNF
701 G5 Richard Miller / Juanita Miller
1995 Ford Mustang GT DNF
94 O Peter Fetela / Ray Vambuts
1998 Subaru Impreza STi DNF
242 G2 Mark Huebbe / John Huebbe
1970 Volkswagen Beetle DNF
635 G5 Robert Wright / Misha Avrushenko
1985 Saab 900T DNF
50 G2 Allan Dantes / Jennifer Majszak
1995 VW Jetta DNF
240 G2 Ian Seppanen / Christopher Gordon
1991 Nissan 240SX DNF
751 G2 John Kimmes / Greg Smith
1992 Volkswagen GTI DNF
171 O Carl Siegler / David Goodman
1996 Subaru Impreza DNF
852 O Christopher Cramer / Michael Handow
1991 Mitsubishi Galant VR-4 DNF
View Printable


Unique rally cars are alive and well.
 
#25 ·
It's not that my rally car is unique, it's just that there are only a small handful of us elite intelligentistas. What I mean is, it's not unique, there is just only a few of us smart enough to recognize the best platform available to rally in the US.
New cars are nice if your company provides one for you. Otherwise, it's a money suck luxury. Definitely not a good place to look for a potential rally car, especially not a first rally car.
I paid over $1200 for a car once. Twelve years ago...
 
#26 ·
Thanks Tony for the list of cars at Ojibwe. I still notice that there is quite a few Subaru's in that list, but at least they are unique!

It seems like Grant has the right idea for me right now, buy a inexpensive car. That is very likely what I would do someday soon. I believe what others say when your first rally car should be purchased. I will someday soon be in a position to be able to Buy the Lada that is for sale right now up here in Ontario. I don't think anyone wants to be the last one holding that hot potato. You'd have so many previous owners looking down at you for ending the life of the car!

I am still hoping this thread might get a little more technical in nature, to describe what may be a deal breaker in turning some standard street car into a rally car. Like X amount of Suspension travel, Y amount of control arm length. Z amount of ground clearance. Things like that could be useful to others who want to build a car.
 
#28 ·
I am still hoping this thread might get a little more technical in nature, to describe what may be a deal breaker in turning some standard street car into a rally car. Like X amount of Suspension travel, Y amount of control arm length. Z amount of ground clearance. Things like that could be useful to others who want to build a car.
Size and flimsyness or suspension components.
Twist style rear beams more likely to twist in a non-desirable way.
Balljoints should be larger. Replaceable and not integrated into arms can save money provided the arms are strong enough.
Ability to adjust camber, especially dialing in more negative in front means increasing ride height and you can fix the positive camber without need fabricated control arms or top mounts to fix.
Steel control arms and trailing/multi link stuff is able to be easily reinforced and is more likely to bend than break increasing chance of driving out of stage.
Geometry of front arms, tie rods, and mounting points on hub.
Size of CVs and equal length halfshafts to reduce torque steer.
Ability to obtain a clutch type LSD for differential.
Ability to obtain better final drive ratios for gearbox.
If turbo AWD and want competitive, must have an active center differential to be competitive.
Overall weight and weight distribution.

There's amazingly few options out there that really make sense to rally in my opinion. If you want AWD and have the kind of money to afford open or SP, an Evo or STI. If you still want AWD but don't have that kind of budget, an Open Light older Impreza. FWD a Honda Civic or Integra (see Billy Elliot Mann's build thread). RWD an E36 BMW, Volvo 240 or Merkur XR4ti. Of course, that is applying logic and this is a passion so you CAN build anything you want. :)
 
#31 ·
The old Jason Priestley car?

It's alive and well, living in the garage of Rodney and Lisa Maxwell, the super-volunteers (on here too!). It was driven in fury as the 00 car at Sandblast this year with an awesome Toyota WRC decal package.

 
#30 ·
Last time I checked rally is still supposed to be a competition - therefore people choose a vehicle that is competitive and hopefully safe/reliable in the interest of doing as well as possible. Picking unique or "quirky" cars for the sake of variety for spectators is a waste of time if they can't be competitive. And if more people spent more time learning how to drive faster and less worrying about the car they were in US rally would me more interesting to watch...
 
#32 ·
meh. maybe.

There's no prize money. There's, for all intents and purposes, no sponsorship. There's no TV, radio, pitifully little digital media, still haven’t seen one photo of my car from Ojibwe... So...

The "show" is for 2 groups, the few local, mainly rural people near where we rally and the participants. The few locals don't want to see formula STI. They want to see variety. The 5-10 seconds a stage they get to see the cars, It's hard to say how well the car's being driven, often through the ditch get more cheers than in like a lamb, out like a lion.

I of course want to be faster than the next guy in my class, but I'm a realist. Some driver with 15 years of national experience in a very well built SRT4 is going to kick my azz 99 out of 100 times unless my rally budget was 10 times what it is and I can go to Tim O's 3 times a year. So I like chevys and I rally a Chevy. Do I want to drive the Chevy to the best of mine AND it's ability, sure.
 
#33 ·
I have one of the US Mustangs.

Cool things about a Mustang:
- multiple class legality
- shells and parts can be found somewhat easily
- castoff stock parts from other racers
- wheels are free to $10 each
- even a stock 302 has enough power vs. available traction
- durable
- experienced drivers can really haul the mail
- RWD is where it's at!

Downsides:
- it's a heavy car and not distributed well
- limited suspension options
- hard on tires (heavy)
- doesn't fly well (I've heard, probably because it's heavy (in the front))

I bought the car for $500 as a driver, caged it, rallied it and have since thrown a bunch of parts at it, all on a strict budget.
It's held together and finished every rally I've put it in, aside from the off course-lake incident in 2007.
 
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top