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What sort of setup are you rally hams using?

25K views 47 replies 23 participants last post by  RRR_K2 
#1 · (Edited)
Hey all,

I wrote the test for my licence 2 weeks ago and was curious as to what sort of set up many of the rally oriented hams were using. It was suggested (if budgets permit) that a dual band mobile with cross band repeat and a dual band handheld would probably be a good rally set-up howver I can't see dropping the kind of money required for that setup right off the hop. I only recently started volunteering at rallies so I never really thought to peak in the cars of the other workers to see what they have. So far I've been at an ATC so whether different jobs/tasks are condusive to a different type of set-up, I don't know.

Thanks
 
#2 ·
In theory the set-up you outline is excellent. In practice it does may work that well, but it seems to be an operator issue - there are others with better knowledge than me -- with cross band repeat you need to pause before speaking. We often hear clipped transmitions because of the cross-band and it often means we have to ask for the information to be repeated, so while this might be easily solved and the operator is in full control, it does seem to be a consitent issue.

As a stepping stone to the above, a good two meter with a speaker than can be placed outside the car works very well. As long as you can hear, and you are listening, you can dash back to the car to respond.

Someday I will probably investigate the cross-band set-up and do it myself, when well executed it (should) work great. In the mean time, I am happy with the unit in the car, a speaker on the windshield and the mic typically strectched to hang out the window.

I don't have my radios permently mounted and typically secure them in the back seat nearer a door to make access thru a window easy - not a setup that everyome can do or would like to do.

The radios are mounted to the old-style plastic cup holders that you used to buy to put on the center-hump of a car, this allows me to move the radios from car to car or around the car easily, I then try to bungee them in place. I used to have a dedicated power-point run from the battery and semi-permenantly installed in my vehicles, I have found that I can work straight from most vehicles standard powerpoints, on occasion I have found a PP that does not let me broadcast on 50-watts, but have not had this issue in awhile.

Having been around awhile I am a little spoiled with equipment, my opinion is the Mobile unit is the priority, followed by the handheld, and then you can get gluttenous and have a second mobile or more... :)
 
#33 ·
In theory the set-up you outline is excellent. In practice it does may work that well, but it seems to be an operator issue - there are others with better knowledge than me -- with cross band repeat you need to pause before speaking.
This is probably a good place to note that when using repeaters with PL tones (which these days is most of them), it's *also* often necessary to pause between keying up and speaking, to give the tone squelch time to recognize the tone and switch on the transmitter. Just hesitate for a beat between pressing the mic button and talking. When operating simplex this doesn't usually come up, but it's a good habit to get into.
 
#3 ·
KDev, what you describe will work and will be very flexible for any ham situation.

Total overkill for rally though, in 99% of the situations. I've had that setup for, oh, six years, and I've bothered to connect it all up that way twice. Dual band is also nice... and you will use it very, very rarely unless you're net control, or perhaps a course car. Sure, if you have it, you might use it more, but would you need it? Nah.

My recommendation is one of these:



Yaesu FT 2900R. Single band, 75 watt. No fan (so no dust can get in), the case is just a big heat sink. You can literally drive over it with a truck and it will be fine (they've shown that in some ads). linky

I've lent one of these out to two zero car guys who had just gotten their ham licenses... both ended up buying one right after the rally. Available for $160-$200 :D

Cheers,
Anders
 
#5 ·
My recommendation is one of these:



Yaesu FT 2900R. Single band, 75 watt. No fan (so no dust can get in), the case is just a big heat sink. You can literally drive over it with a truck and it will be fine (they've shown that in some ads). linky
I second the Yaesu recommendation - they seem to be indestructible. One thing to remember, is that if you get to higher power rigs, you probably WON'T be able to run them at full power from a car power plug. And I'd worry just a little bit about having no fan - it means you have to provide it with some ventilation. Of course I've been known to use a radio in 10-12 different cars in a year...if you're permanently installing, you only have to address these things once.

Bruce
 
#4 ·
caveat: I have not yet worked a rally running radio - but I did use mine to listen, while working controls at one, and crewing at another.

I've just got a simple mobile 2m (Yaesu 2900) - with the volume cranked all the way up, windows on the car down, I didn't have any trouble hearing it from 20-30 feet away, with it crammed in between the e-brake and seat of my 4runner. I was just using a cigarette lighter adapter, but I wasn't transmitting, so I was confident I wouldn't have any issues there.

Semi-long term, I'm planning on building a fixture to attach it to the glovebox, and will be running dedicated power direct from the battery. I'm torn between an external speaker, and just hooking it up to the car stereo (lots of speakers!).

(and I need to get busy on that, so that I can get some practice using the radio before I forget everything that I learned for the test, and before I actually have to use it...)
 
#17 · (Edited)
\I'm torn between an external speaker, and just hooking it up to the car stereo (lots of speakers!).
One advantage that communication speakers have is that they are typically designed for flat frequency response in the voice frequency range (i.e. approx 300 Hz - 3400 Hz), so they cut out some of the hum & hiss that can be present when using full frequency range speakers, as is typical & desirable for a car stereo. This can make them less tiring to listen to for long periods. The particular mobile radio speaker that I like is the Kenwood KES-5 (or older KES-4) as they are rugged, weather resistant, and have a higher power capability than many other mobile comms speakers. The only slight downside is that they typically come with just pins on the connector end, so one needs to cut the pins off, and solder a 1/8" mono mini plug on the end, so that they can plug into the typical mono mini plug jack on the back of a mobile ham radio. However, that is a one time fix, and easy to do. Ask a friend to help with this if you don't have the skill or equipment.

Edit: if used inside a vehicle, or only moved outside the vehicle when the weather is fair, mobile comms speakers or PA horns that are cheaper than the Kenwood KES-5 exist that will also do the job acceptably.
 
#10 ·
It does really depend on what you do.

I basically have the setup you describe. I'm a bit of a rally jack of all trades though. I think about the only thing I haven't done at a rally is sweep, so the flexibility has been great. But the radio is more complex, and the tiny buttons (with so many functions they can only be so large), it's really hard to operate in a moving vehicle, and easy to get into a mode that's not going to work (thanks for the "Internet" mode button Yaesu. Literally not once have I wanted to use that, but it has it's own button dedicated to it, right where it's easiest to hit).

There is a lot to be said for KISS. I'm planning on running an FT-2900 or similar, very basic, unit in the rally car. The FT-8800 has been installed in the service/working vehicle. Handheld (VX-2) will go with me either way, it's just too handy.
 
#11 ·
I have the Yaesu 2900R at the top of my radio list, based on seeing it mentioned more than a few times here. Can a few people using that radio provide links to the antennas they are using, so I can reference those as a starting point for what to buy for an antenna also? Thanks.
 
#13 ·
For years I've used a combination of a Comet B-10 1/4 wave for at home and a SBB-5 1/2 wave for out in the forest, with a variety of mounts (thru-roof, roof rack, hatch lip, mag-mount)

Those are going on the rally car now, and the service rig/worker vehicle got a thru-roof NMO mount, and mounts a Comet SBB-1NMO 1/4 wave for casual use and a SBB-5NMO for rally use.

I've got an Optek 5/8 wave around too, but it has generally had poorer performance than even the 1/4 wave Comets, so it's mostly good for fishing stuff out from under cars or behind cabinets . . .

Something to keep in mind is when you hit a branch at speed, there are a few possible scenarios.

The antenna can bend just enough and snap back.
The antenna can bend a lot and whip around. This can result, and has among people I know, result in a smashed window if the antenna is long enough.
The antenna can not bend, and break. I had a very expensive, very pretty multi-segment Comet Challenger 1/2 wave once. Than I ran 00 at Shooting Star, and by the end of the rally I had a stump of an antenna left (but it still worked well enough). I don't do multi-segment antennae anymore. I've had a shorter 1/4 wave get caught and snap off the antenna at the base.
The mount can break as well.
A mag-mount can be simply flipped over. Or it can be knocked clean off the car. I've seen two cases where this happened, and then the antenna swung around like a pendulum on the cable and smashed out a window in the vehicle.

At this point I go with hard-mounted (thru-roof), single segment antennas that are not rigid, but not whips either. Hence the antennas I listed (except the SBB-1NMO which is a "rubber ducky" type, and mostly there to protect stuff when I'm not actively using the radio).
 
#18 ·
A mag-mount can be simply flipped over. Or it can be knocked clean off the car. I've seen two cases where this happened, and then the antenna swung around like a pendulum on the cable and smashed out a window in the vehicle.
Though less desirable than other more permanent mounts, a mag mount can be useful in certain scenarios due to the quick install e.g. unplanned vehicle pressed into service at last minute. For situations when that occurs, one can help mitigate the chance of a mag mount coming loose, by utilizing a 5" or 6" diameter mag mount with a heavy duty magnet that has a higher holding power than some of the wimpier 3" diameter mag mounts. Also, one can mount the mag mount at the edge of the roof (rather than the center), and then zip-tie the coax where it comes out of the magnet to a roof rack rail, or similar, if such exists, reducing the amount of distance the mag mount can move if it becomes unstuck.
 
#15 ·
Short version: Yaesu FT-8800R (dual band 2m/70cm, dual receive, with remote mount head), Larsen NMO 2/70B antenna on roof rack mount, with Kenwood KES-5 speakers inside & outside on roof rack. I also have a Yaesu VX-170 and a Yaesu VX-7R handheld (both with upgraded Diamond SRH77CA antennas).

Long version: I currently use a Yaesu FT-8800R in my service vehicle, with the body mounted with a large slab of heavy duty velcro under the 2nd row seat, and the remote mount head installed up front in an open dash spot. The mic connects to the remote mount head, which is convenient, and the remote mount head receives its power from the radio body via the remote mount cable. The main radio body receives power via either 2-gauge or 4-gauge cable (I can't remember which) hardwired directly from the battery (via a 100A fuse at the battery) to a fused distribution block under the 2nd row seat, which is then run with 6-gauge cable to a Red-Dee-2 PS-75/45-4 (1 75A PowerPole input, 4 45A/30A/15A PowerPole outputs), and one of the Red-Dee-2 outputs is then run with dual-fused 10 gauge cable to the radio body under the 2nd row seat.

Sidenote: the other 3 Red-Dee-2 Powerpole outputs run a Kenwood 110W business band 150 MHz radio (also with remote mount head, and NMO single band roof rack antenna cut for 151.625 MHz Weatherman frequency) for offroad races in Baja, a 400W continuous inverter, and there is one spare output for future expansion, or powering an additional radio if need be. Each of the 4 PowerPole outputs have 10 gauge cable runs with the appropriate fuse in both the positive & negative runs of the cable. I like this setup, because it uses the appropriate size cable & fuses at each step of the way, and is flexible, since e.g I can unplug all aux equipment by simply unplugging the 75A power cable connector from the Red-dee-2, or just one piece of equipment by unplugging its corresponding output cable run from the Red-Dee-2. And since it's properly fused at each step, even if one fuse blows, the other equipment should still function properly. Also, if I plan extended use for rallies, and don't want to run my engine or risk draining the batteries, I can throw an extra charged AGM battery in the back, and I have a 10 ft 8 gauge power cable with battery ring terminals on one end, and a 75A Powerpole connector on the other end, which I can plug into the Red-Dee-2. So I can run all my aux equipment off a second battery or power source, instead of vehicle power.

I have Kenwood KES-5 weather resistant 4 ohm speakers, both inside the vehicle and outside on the roof rack. At the moment, I have to manually plug in either the inside or outside speaker into the back of the main body under the 2nd row seat (both speaker plugs are routed there). However, I am considering rigging up a switch harness that would allow me to switch between inside or outside speakers, or both at the same time. But that is an optimization, and manually plugging one speaker or the other into the back of the radio works fine for now.

Since I have a roof rack, with a huge spare tire & other obstructions on the roof rack, I currently use a Diamond K series roof rack antenna mount, with a Larsen NMO 2/70B dual band antenna, that is half wave on 2 meter. Despite being roof rack mounted, as opposed to the preferred install of being permanently mounted in the center of the roof with the whole roof as a ground plane, so far this setup has worked fine for me.

What I like about the Yaesu FT-8800R is that it's dual band receive, which means that one can listen to e.g. net frequency on one side, and stage frequency on the other (when working a rally), or e.g. net frequency on one side & rally car frequency on another (when servicing at a rally). However, as pointed out previously, cramming 2 radios worth of buttons onto a roughly single DIN sized remote head makes for a slightly cluttered interface. And there is also the annoying Internet WIRES function which gets activated if you press & hold the left side lower control knob which sticks out (a lot of people accidentally activate this when they first get the radio). Luckily it's easy to deactivate by just pressing & holding again, but it would be nice if it were possible to simply disable the WIRES function via a menu. Anyway, it sounds like I am complaining a lot about the Yaesu FT-8800, but really it's a great radio, with great performance, and lots features, that has a user interface that is fine when the vehicle is at a standstill, but for certain features can be a little fiddly in a vehicle at speed on a bumpy surface.

I also have a Yaesu VX-7R handheld (quad band, with upgraded Diamond SRH77CA antenna), which I could use to cross-band repeat with my Yaesu FT-8800R. However, I have only made use of that feature once. Most of the time it's possible to park the vehicle close enough to the stage start / finish / blockage area where it's possible to hear the radio, and easily step back over to it if necessary. I also have a Yaesu VX-170 single band 2m handheld (also, with upgraded Diamond SRH77CA antenna, predecessor to the current Yaesu FT-270R), which I actually prefer using to the Yaesu VX-7R since it's single band and therefore has a less cluttered interface that is easier to use, though it obviously doesn't have some of the fancy functionality that the Yaesu VX-7R does. Having a handheld can be useful in a number of scenarios e.g. I throw one in my bag when competing as a co-driver so I can listen in if a rally is delayed, or I can walk around service & still hear what's going on, or even use when working a rally away from my vehicle (though one's transmit range won't be as good as a mobile, unless using cross-band repeat, due to the lower TX power of a handheld, so not quite as useful as a full mobile in that capacity).
 
#19 ·
Thanks for the info guys, most helpful (once again). Printed and stuffed into my AES catalog for further review. I had some tax refund money tagged for a few things (including new tires & a radio). But it is slowly dwindling away...
 
#20 ·
ICOM V-8000 - straight 2m rig - no flipping cross-band repeat - 75W and inexpensive - I have had some mic problems, but otherwise has been absolutely relaible. I attach it to a piece of plywood that rests in the passenger footwell.

Larsen Mag-mount 5/8 wavelength antenna.

Used Yaesu Hand-held for when I am out of the car - less than $100.

A cross-band repeat radio will cost you north of $500 in Canada. If you go that route be careful - there are dual-band radios that DO NOT have cross-band repeat. The ICOM I have is down around $200 and the Larsen antenna is under $100. All set-up for less than $300. Even less if you can find some used equipment.

Bring your manual and spare fuses. Wire it directly to your battery - no cig-lighter plugs or that crap. Duct tape to hold the antenna cable so it can't flop around. It also stops the antenna from falling off the car and smashing anything!
 
#21 · (Edited)
Since I'm going to be hooking up some aux. lights to my truck I'll just run an extra 14 or 12 ga wire through the firewall at the same time, do the radios have their own fuses or would I need to have an inline fuse holder in the power cable. I have a backrack on the truck so I should be able to find an antenna bracket for it fairly easy (I hope).

Like this >


Unfortunately for me hamfest is when I'm at work and the local ham clubs all seem to have their meetings when I'm not around either. I'll have to keep an eye out on ebay or kijiji. (Or bite the bullet on a new one)

On another ham note, just checked the RAC site, looks like Industry Canada finally processed my application.

Thanks for all the info, more is always welcome.
 
#23 ·
do the radios have their own fuses or would I need to have an inline fuse holder in the power cable.
Since both the power and ground could carry quite a bit of current if something went wrong, it's recommended that you have fuses in both, with those fuses being inline just near the battery. Make sure it's a blade-type inline, not anything with a spring (for those glass/ceramic cylindrical fuses). The springy ones can bounce and yield intermittent contact, leading to very annoying resets. As usual, guess how I learned this lesson. ;)



Cheers,
Anders
 
#24 ·
Every radio I have seen has its own fuses in its power leads. But, if you are running additional wire from the battery, I would fuse it at the battery (especially if you are going through the firewall). Fuse both the positive and the negative.

press on,
 
#25 ·
Fuse both the positive and the negative.
To explain, this is to protect the radio for becoming a convenient path to ground should something else have a problem. From a protection of the vehicle standpoint, fusing the ground is no more necessary than on any other piece of equipment in the vehicle.

I suspect this came about when ham rigs could be a sizeable portion of the vehicle's value. My in-dash DVD/Navigation/Handsfree/Reverse camera has a lot more various cables running throughout the truck (GPS antenna, microphone, parking brake signal, VSS signal, reverse signal, sperakers, power to and signal from reverse camera, speakers, XM radio, and the entire GMLAN bus), so it's potential for becoming a path to ground is much higher than the radio (as well as it's value) and nobody ever suggests fusing the ground of the car stereo.

Not saying it doesn't serve a purpose, I just think it's purpose is pretty miminal these days. I don't bother.
 
#30 · (Edited)
Being an EE, and therefore knowlegable about many named physical laws*, you know that the wire would then melt in either the most inaccessible place or right next to the most flamable thing...

*Ohm's, Murphy's, etc...

My setup is a Yaesu FT-8500 (dual-band) with a dual-band handheld (Yaesu FT-51R), and a Yaesu FT-1500M as a backup.

Adrian
 
#29 ·
Another option...

If you can, try out a friend's/rally worker's radio -- or at a store. Some folks find some of the menu systems to be more intuitive than a competitors, etc.

As an option, may I suggest the Kenwood TM-281A -- It can be had for $140-145 - due to discounts from Kenwood.
65 watts, compact, MIL-spec, front mounted speaker, larger mic buttons (easier to manipulate)... Good reviews at Eham.net. Not against the Yaesu rig -- I have 4 Yaesu rigs... Just providing an alternative that I recently suggested to another new radio op/rally fan.

So depending upon shipping and your final budget, you should be in good shape for a mid to low-end, but serviceable antenna and external speaker.

Here are some install ideas:
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showpost.php?p=31230062&postcount=442

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1762247&page=19

Best wishes!
 
#34 ·
IMHO I would not buy a used radio.
Radios are so inexpensive (especially the single band 2 meter rigs) and the prices of used radios are so high that the loss of reliability is not worth the risk.
In my (decades) of experience the highest wear point is the microphone cable and connectors. Also common are stress cracks on the printed circuit boards (aka PCBs) that may not show up until you expose the radio to some vibration.

Personally I use the Yaesu radios and while the other brands certainly make quality gear it is worthwhile to have a system that is similar to what others are using in case you need to borrow a mike or need help in programming.
73...
 
#38 ·
IMHO I would not buy a used radio.
Radios are so inexpensive (especially the single band 2 meter rigs) and the prices of used radios are so high that the loss of reliability is not worth the risk.
In my (decades) of experience the highest wear point is the microphone cable and connectors. Also common are stress cracks on the printed circuit boards (aka PCBs) that may not show up until you expose the radio to some vibration.
73...
I'm going to respectfully disagree at least to a point. I've had good luck with used radios both from ham swaps and the large auction site. While Jim is correct that a used radio may cost as much as a new one, to me that indicates that the market values an older radio more. Yeasu FT1500s are selling for a 25-50% premium over the cost of what they were new. The occasional NOS unit brings large money. That radio has a history of mic cord problems yet always sells and never less than the cost of a new radio.
Newer radios have more features but rally hams typically use a small portion of them. I'd argue that there is a perceived quality difference between new and old radios. At least that what I got from reading reviews on e-ham. Newer radios, like most electronics, are built in China. Older ones in Japan. The market seems to value where the radio was built. Modern construction does much less expensive radios. My first 2m rig was over $200,in 1985 $s. Used, 20 memories and no PL.
I will allow that buying a used radio is not for everyone. One has to evaluate the rig. Ham swaps that have a test bench available can help. Ebay sales which are tradeins at a radio dealer are good. Sometimes a crapshoot on a really cheap radio from a seller who really doesn't know what they're selling is good. YMMV.
 
#36 ·
One of my Audis was wired for a cellular phone (before the car mounted phone became obsolete) and included a dual voice coil speaker in the drivers door.
One coil was for the stereo and the other was for the car phone. It was a simple matter to use the second voice coil for the ham radio. You could run them both simultaneously.

Despite my current setup (Yaesu FT-8800R) having the main chassis in the rear it still wreaks havoc with my glovebox mounted iPod. But only on some frequencies - must have a resonance somewhere in the circuitry that triggers the madness.

I've found the cross-band repeat to be handy in a few situations.
Like the end of Concord Pond in Maine where sometimes I'll park the car a mile from the finish at a high point (by the power lines) to give solid simplex coverage to the start.
But those situations are rare and hardly warrant the investment solely for that feature.
 
#37 ·
ON the crossband repeat issue.
I bought some 2m only radios as my first investment. Within a year I had replaced my mobile with a 8800r and my handheld with the FT-60r for the cross band ability. I don't use it a lot but I do use it and it is almost always been for good reasons. The lag and having to wait for the repeaters to drop is a pain ... but still workable a long as everyone on the net 'gets' it.
In short, spending more now might well save you from spending even more in the long run.
 
#42 ·
Taking a break between assignments of RNY - some quick thoughts.

Some of those new radios you see going for more then the typical dealer prices have been modded for out of band operation (MARS mod) and the technically challenged are willing to pay the premium.
Some people buy those modded radios for thier business uses - a cheap (illegal) way to get a business radio.

Some folks pay too much because they want to have the same radio in each of their vehicles for consistency sake - or may have the programing software and want everything compatible.

And of course, lots of people get caught up in the frenzy or just don't have a clue.

jb
 
#44 ·
#47 ·
I recently installed a Kenwood D710A in my truck, have the control head mounted above the mirror, and at least for the 100aw which was its first use I had the main body of the radio itself attached to my back seats. Used the speaker output to the aux in on the truck radio to pipe all communications to the trucks in door speakers which was handy during 00 operations, also allows the truck to be used as a PA like system by opening the doors and turning the volume up.
 
#48 ·
For my main rig I have a Yaesu FT-8800R. Since I don't want it in the car all the time I mount the main unit on the back of the center console/arm-rest, zip-tie the remote-head to the hand-brake, and plug the audio into my car stereo. I also have a Yaesu VX-127 that I cross-band with the 8800 so that I can get out of the car and still be in contact. As a chief of controls and a stage captain I find this extremely invaluable. In fact, the mobility of the HT combined with the power of the mobile rig became a real necessity when all at once I had to do FTC timing, radio, and traffic control at Black River Stages last year.

Matt
 
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