Canadian PGT vs FIA grN
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Thread: Canadian PGT vs FIA grN

  1. #1
    TG Dog/dogbox /LSD for any car ktibi's Avatar
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    Exclamation Canadian PGT vs FIA grN

    After some studying of the PGT rules and FIA Gr N4 I realized that we are about 75~80 % identical to that class. Some wording is the same (was it copied from there?)

    any how, what is the general opinion to close the gap to favor Gr N over PGT ?

    biggest impacts: 1350 kg minimum weight or FIA homologations weight (homologated by manufacturer) or manufacturer curb wight (current PGT rule)

    33 mm turbo restrictor

    transmission: homologated gear ratios are allowed

    other than this is amlost the same, a bit more details on parts in the FIA regulations and allowance on homologated parts by the manufacturer(not too many)

    Toughts?
    rookie forevo

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  3. #2
    don't cut HiTempguy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ktibi View Post

    Toughts?
    Supposedly new classes are already in the works for CRC, probably not for a while but in the works nonetheless. I can't see why we would ever go Gr.N (been done before) instead of Super Production so our classes more closely matched the rest of NA.
    Adam

    Blew up the clutch at PFR, back at it for Big White!

  4. #3
    Dramamine is for DramaQueens Morison's Avatar
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    Like Adam suggested - CARS and RA both had N4 as a class in the early to mid 2000s. It was under populated and considered too expensive if done right. A properly homologated car needs to use SPECIFIC parts which tend to get expensive due to the homogation process. There was one event where the location of a water spray tank was inquiried as was, I believe, the part number of the tank used. (It was legal thanks to a homologation varient the protestor was not aware of)
    N4 would have made a lot of sense as the 'championship' class for both sanctioning bodies but as a grassroots class it doesn't work well at all. A proper N4 build would be more that 80% of the open class cars out there and more than most of the SP cars.
    If you want to keep Mexico open as an option (the only real reason to be concerned about Gn Homologation) then build it to N4 specs but with balast and a 32mm restrictor. When it comes time to run Mexico - remove the balast and re-tune.
    (Be careful though, shells that can be homologated often have to come from a specific set of VIN numbers)
    Keith Morison
    Morison Communications

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  6. #4
    TG Dog/dogbox /LSD for any car ktibi's Avatar
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    That is why I was writing, closing gap, to bring the the 2 class closer. if any of that helps to create a popular class, I was hoping to see more PGT cars after the rule changes took place at this year. So I tough ,it might need more changes, to make it more popular/interesting. For sure not all the hustle with homologization an all that stuff. (that I never liked back home)
    rookie forevo

  7. #5
    straight at T
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    Quote Originally Posted by ktibi View Post
    That is why I was writing, closing gap, to bring the the 2 class closer. if any of that helps to create a popular class, I was hoping to see more PGT cars after the rule changes took place at this year. So I tough ,it might need more changes, to make it more popular/interesting. For sure not all the hustle with homologization an all that stuff. (that I never liked back home)
    The real question, that was answered quite well by the experiences during the timeframe that Keith mentioned, is: What is the value of this exercise?

    Unlike most of the rest of the world, there are very few cars available in North America that match the homologated variants. This means that you have compromised the whole homologation process unless you import a car. Group N cars are defined by their homologations and the extensions of these, effectively limiting the modifications that can be made to a very specific set. If you don't follow the homologation process but allow changes to gear ratios etc., then all you really do is make PGT closer to Open by allowing more modifications. If you want to make performance modifications to your production car there is a class for that already.

    Adrian

  8. #6
    your other left, you idiot
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    To build an absolutely technically legal Group N car is a very difficult and $$$ proposition.

    Back in the heat of the GN competition, one of my competitors came up to me and, sort of in jest, showed me the list of what he said was illegal on my car. I pulled out my list for his car - it was 2 to 3 times as long. Now, most of the transgressions were trivial, and of no competitive advantage - but in FIA land, they would have been violations.

    The car I was sitting in had come into the States from New Zealand as a Possum Bourne recce car, so it was the most legal (or least illegal) of the GN cars running. To make a legal GN car of a Canadian or US shell is almost impossible.

    So, my point, why bother with GN (other than for Rally Mexico).

    Definitely - YMMV

    press on,
    Last edited by jimmy; 12-21-2011 at 07:22 AM.
    just a poor, dumb, Michigan(now Wisconsin) navie
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    jimmy

  9. #7

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    IMHO, the answer to production is for CARS to adopt Super Production ruleset from Rally America.

    This will give the current production guys a little bit more freedom to do what they want, and i suspect you'll also see some "open" cars make some changes and step back into SP.

  10. #8
    TG Dog/dogbox /LSD for any car ktibi's Avatar
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    yes , there is a class for modified cars, ,I was only pointing out the significant differences between the two classes, and asking if there is any interest to adopt something from Gr N to PGT, that would make sense,
    looking for a reason to still see a bunch of open class cars, that really nothing to do with open, other than small bits
    so just looking for inputs how to make PGT better,cheaper maybe? to create a better class/more competitors
    rookie forevo

  11. #9
    Dramamine is for DramaQueens Morison's Avatar
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    As Adam mentioned, there has been a committee working on a new class structure for CARS that is looking at a simplified structure that would probably make a lot more sense. The reality is that if you start allowing different gear-sets the cars may (probably will) get better but they won't get cheaper.
    I would expect the class structure proposal to be in public discussion fairly soon, but it's been on the go for a couple of years now.
    Keith Morison
    Morison Communications

  12. #10

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    From my personal point of view, it would be very interesting if CARS would allow US Super Production Cars to compete in the Canadian Super Production Class. Go for it. You got my support!

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