Who owns the road?
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Thread: Who owns the road?

  1. #1

    Default Who owns the road?

    If it's listed as a county road going through a national forest, does that the county and not the forest service would be the one to allow a rally on that road?
    Grant Hughes - 1985 Merkur XR$TI Group 5
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  3. #2
    100 oversquare right
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    That sounds like both could issue permits for that road.

    Who currently Owns the road is much less important than who currently has "right of way" to said road. its varies from state to state, but Many states have laws to the effect of "agencies who have maintained the road no greater than X years ago, have right of way" . some states give right of way to every agency that has ever maintained the road !! (AZ i think)

    meaning if the county paid for maintenance even once, they may still (or forever) have right of way to the road, and can issue permits to close down the road for an event.


    the Forest service would also likely have right of way to the road. but there may be additional agencies that have a right of way. all you need is to find 1 Agency that will issue you the permits.

    one more item of Note, I know for sure , one rally in the US has that exactly situation you decribe. roads going into National Forest land, where the local national forest will not issues permits for rally, but the county does. the rally goes on. It does change how much from the center of the road is actually legal to use though. I believe that specific rally (PM/email/call me for more details) is "limited" to using 30 or 60 feet from the center line in either direction. (so setting up worker stations, spectators, refuel, etc, etc, ) you are more limited, Where as if the permits were issued from the forest service the rally would be able to use areas further from the center line of the road.

    Last edited by A1337STI; 12-09-2011 at 02:29 PM.
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  4. #3
    Uh Oh, UH OH, UHH OHHH!!! johnhuebbe's Avatar
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    The County if it is a county road through a national forest. At least that's how it works for 100AW. But we still need a permit with the national forest for spectator points, having people in the forest, etc.
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  6. #4
    100 K right 4 MN_Rallymaster's Avatar
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    In general, whoever is paying to maintain the road is the permitting agency you'll need to speak with since they'll likely be responsible for any repairing, or seeing to it that you get it repaired. Determining which of the many agencies is the correct one is usually something that requires contacting several to find out who is the one you need to negotiate with.

    You should be very wary of any situation in which several agencies claim simultaneous authority - usually it's a "power-play" on someones part, and it's almost always trouble for the event.

    Like most "General" statements - it may not be the case in your instance - due diligence is required, something that is best accomplished by discussions with local folks who have knowledge of the players.

    Brad
    Freedom is the lack of rally related stress.

  7. #5

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    Quote Originally Posted by granthughes View Post
    If it's listed as a county road going through a national forest, does that the county and not the forest service would be the one to allow a rally on that road?
    So the real question is why do you want to know? Grant, are you planning a new rally through a national forest?
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  8. #6
    The Scorpion King John Sundelin's Avatar
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    The answer to the question in your thread title is almost always the Department of the Interior (not the Forest Service) but that's really not relevant. The exception is if the road was built as a Federal Aid Highway a long time ago, at which point the Feds may have actually deeded the land underneath the road to the county or state, but you probably won't be that lucky. Beyond that, the answer to your main question is that it depends. If the county has a genuine Right-of-Way for the road, then you need permission from them, but that is a necessary but perhaps not sufficient condition. Even if the Forest Service wanted to, they couldn't give you a permit because rallies are within the scope of a highway Right-of-Way. However, the Right-of-Way only applies to a certain amount of land, which may only be the disturbed surface of the road itself. So, as was mentioned, for the road blocks, etc, you might need a Forest Service permit, depending on how they view the world. But, since your permit is not for a competitive motorsports event, you're in much better shape. This is about as close the the ideal situation as you will find.
    You can have problems in one of two areas. The first is that there is a legitimate disagreement as to whether the county has a valid Right-of-Way. This usually results from the County claiming that they got the Right-of-Way under RS-2477, which among many other things means the road was there before it was declared to be a National Forest. The catch is that the road had to be a legal public highway under Colorado law before it was declared to be a National Forest. Proving that can be quite difficult, which is why there tends to be disagreement. The other thing that is fairly common is that the Forest Service will sign maintenance agreements with counties, and the maintenance agreements don't provide the counties with all the same benefits as a real Right-of-Way. In both of those instances, you'll probably need permission from both parties. In my experience, that's not a worthwhile expenditure of time unless it is a really, really, nice piece of road.
    The easiest way to find out might be to look at the BLM Master Title Plat for the townships that the road is in. If it's shown on the plat, that's a good sign, and it should have a reference number that'll allow you to get some more information (PM me and I'll show you how to find it). If it's not, that's not necessarily the end of the world, but now you're going to have to rely on asking people that might not understand the subtlety of why you're asking, so you might get the wrong answer. First, I'd call the county and ask them. Make sure you talk to their Right-of-Way administrator, and not the guy who schedules the maintenance of the road (you'll need to make friends with him later). Assuming you get the answer that you want to hear, I'd call the Forest's District Office and ask for the person who handles Rights-of-Way, tell them what the County told you, and make sure that they agree. If they do, you're almost golden, if not, see the paragraph above.

    --
    John
    Last edited by John Sundelin; 12-09-2011 at 08:42 PM.

  9. #7
    eating dust taking photos KevinG5Hahn's Avatar
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    Grant,

    we can chat if its slow tomorrow if you end up coming by but send me a list of the roads and I can probably find out who the right of way holder is with an e-mail and a couple of days if need be...
    Kevin Hahn
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  10. #8
    your other left, you idiot
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    Default Chairman hat on here

    You are going to end up dealing with both - so play nice.

    This is NOT the place to try and play semantics, and temporarily "win" a battle, just to lose the war.

    If a car runs off the road, it ends up in the woods. Spectators are in the woods. "Fugitive dust" ends up in the woods.

    Also remember everyone, this is not a private forum. Lots of people read this, quote us, search us - so be careful.

    It is best to very open from the start. BTDT.

    DON'T SCREW THIS ONE UP !!!

    Best of luck.

    press on,
    just a poor, dumb, Michigan(now Wisconsin) navie
    KC8YHT
    jimmy

  11. #9
    codriveur
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    There was a case heard before the Supreme Court of the US this past week that may be worth knowing about so one can put up defensable argumentation on these kinds of uses. It absolutely will be twisted into land usage issues no matter which way the court rules.

    In Montana there is a huge go'round about the ownership of the riverbed, it's use and commerce related issues. In it's litigious and simple form it is seen as affecting only the opperator of the hydroelectric facilities, but there are 26 states that have submitted opinions on this issue which includes thoughts on docks, access,as well as recreational and commercial uses. Montana has an unusual (by my eastern US perspective) rule that all waterways must be accessable at any point, no matter what, Seems common scence is what has prevailed till now. This will become a land issue, no doubt.

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    Bernie

  12. #10
    The Scorpion King John Sundelin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jimmy View Post
    You are going to end up dealing with both - so play nice.

    This is NOT the place to try and play semantics, and temporarily "win" a battle, just to lose the war.

    If a car runs off the road, it ends up in the woods. Spectators are in the woods. "Fugitive dust" ends up in the woods.

    Also remember everyone, this is not a private forum. Lots of people read this, quote us, search us - so be careful.

    It is best to very open from the start. BTDT.

    DON'T SCREW THIS ONE UP !!!

    Best of luck.

    press on,
    I don't think anyone in the thread has suggested not being open about the intended use of the road. However, I disagree that the semantics aren't important, the difference between "trail" and "public highway" is what allows a significant number of events in the Southwest to happen without costs that would break most organizers.

    --
    John

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