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Looking at Olympus data...

11K views 35 replies 19 participants last post by  Towona 
#1 ·
One person traveled from Colorado, one person from Canada, one from California. The rest were all from Washington and Oregon with the exception of the National Championship chasers.
Wondering what kept others away? I know there has to be more people in Canada and the west coast that rally 2WD cars that could have been there. Why weren't you/they.

We've been offering free video to all the Max Attack competitors. So far 25 people have requested footage from four events where that has been covered. Is it lack of knowledge that it's available for free to Max Attack competitors or lack of interest?

Who's planning to be at NEFR? We are still planning on coming but it is up in the air. I was told at lunch today that there is a very real possibility of me being laid off at the end of July. The $400 plane tickets do not help. We've also sold zero nada from Olympus so far. Last year we sold enough to cover two of three flights for NEFR after Oregon. Is $100 and $200 too much for footage?

Has Max Attack lost some momentum? There seems to be a lot less excitement about it these days. I know I personally don't think they are the best events in each region but I do think they are some of the best and they deliver a great value. Would attendance to MA events be better if the events were different even if it meant foregoing any purse? Or does none of this matter and it all comes down to the shit economy and availability of other cheaper forms of racing (GRC, Chump, Lemons, Rallycross, etc.) pulling privateers from rallying.
 
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#2 · (Edited)
For us it's the shit economy. We're running 1 day, 5 hour tow from home events.
Max Attack! is great, but $5000.00 to run one event in Washington, or 4 events in So.Cal., it doesn't take a Stephen Hawkings to figure that one out.
The purse is great, but as in any motorsport event you never know if your going to make it to the finish so you put the prize money in the back of your mind for the event.
I going to guess the disposable income isn't there for most teams these days, and it may be another year or two before it returns.
I'm going to guess the sport is a hobby for almost,if not all, all the Max Attack! entrants. After all the daily living bills are paid whatever is left goes into the "Rally Account". I'm also going to guess that with work hours cut back, laid off(Raises Hand) and increase in daily cost of living like food,gas,light and heat, most Rally Accounts have little or no balances.

Just sayin'.

Sean Gallagher
 
#3 ·
Grant,

I am hoping to enter a MA event at some point. The whole concept fits the US rally scene and its economy better than anything else and it also fits the majority of cars sold today(2WD).
-The MA organizers have to balance a lot of things and their choice of venues makes sense considering that they need stable events with good coverage. But, I would have been a lot more excited to run MA if the west coast qualifier was held at a twistier event(current Rally Idaho) and the final was back at Ojibwe. But who am I to talk, I have not made it to a single MA event yet... I am just thinking that location-wise, Idaho is closer to the center of the West than Olympus and Ojibwe is closer to the center of the country than LSPR. Weather would also be far less variable at those summertime rallies(cheaper, no need for mud tires).
-Bringing costs down needs to happen and I believe that very long, single day rallies would help a lot. One day recce, one long day rally. Less hotel rooms, less fuel, less wear on the car, less tires, less vacation time, less crew days. Entries are down but even a lot of regional events are still 2 days-how come organizers have not figured this one out yet?
-As far as footage costs go, I think you should charge everyone, including MA entrants, but less(50-75?).

My $.02

George
 
#4 ·
Grant,

I think you know my 2011 rally coin is going towards the build of Bella Blue.

For sure, the economy sucks and is hurting rally entry numbers all over the place.

Honestly though, I was surprised that some local 2WD heroes were not at Olympus. John Lane, Cody Crane and Nate Tennis are tops on that list.

Oly this year did schedule a bunch of super fast roads. I know I prefer the tight and twisty stuff. On paper, looking at the stage schedule before the event, I know I was shaking my head a bit. To win MA on these fast roads you really need a G5 car (or a seriously tits G2 car with Cody Crane driving it.) There are really not a lot of G5 cars in the PNW region. So in the past, when the SRT4s came to town for MA we knew (know) it would be tough to win at MA! Burress Bros have built a car to win 2wd and can pedal that car fast enough to win overall against the SRT4s (and Wyatt, as we saw on Brooklyn.) The Hintz Bros are certainly a threat in future PNW 2WD battles. However, we have a ton of PNW G2 cars that are really going to have a hard time getting on the podium at MA… This can be discouraging… I know that I want to at least have a chance of winning my class, or I’m throwing the towel. I’m a pretty competitive person though.

In my opinion, future MA events need to be run on the slowest roads North America has to offer us.

I think the $100 to $200 is a total steal for the high quality video your team puts out. I have begged other rally videographers for footage, and yet still they could never be bothered to produce it. So you guys rock, thank you! I only wish I would have been able to enter a recent MA event…
 
#5 ·
How many events, of any sort, are you driving in Charles?

I recently realized I don't practice driving, either karts, autocross, rallycross, anything, other than enter rallies. And it then became obvious to me why my skills progression was frustratingly slow. Before MA, the bar has sometimes been SO LOW, competitors start to expect unrealistic things for their overall driving efforts.

I've been able to do ok at various driving things based mostly on my competitive drive. In MA, I ran up against guys with the same drive, but that had made the effort to get the extra seat time, and devote energy towards practicing. It was no longer realistic to expect to be on the podium in that case.

Projecting out, I have been expecting to see others come to that sort of realization - when a series is created with the intent of getting dedicated fast guys to enter, the also-rans will soon get frustrated when they realize that aside from measuring how far behind the curve they are, it may not offer much value to them, or value they couldn't get at any similarly subscribed rally.

The value isn't in the podium finish, but in the intangibles.
 
#7 ·
How many events, of any sort, are you driving in Charles?
Yeah, not much for me the last two years either... Life has gotten in the way. I have done a hillclimb and a rallycross.. wooo...

I can get in my car and drive 20 mins in any direction and find great roads. I do this often but for sure, it's not like having a closed road.

Grant, I like the shootout format. I think we should keep the shootout format as is, for at least another season before considering a change.
 
#6 ·
So should Max Attack be ready to grow and move away from the shootout format and maybe lend support to regions to form their own championships to support newcomers and privateers and focus more resources on trying to build a National championship with 2WD and try to draw in sponsors and manufacturers? Focus on the Duplessis, Van Way, Knox, and ACPs of the nation? I bet a few more could step it up if it were more meaningful. Should Max Attack merge with the Rally America National Championship but follow the PWRC/WRC lead and select event that are part of the championship? Maybe something like 4-5 of 7 events count towards 2WD Rally America Max Attack Championship. Sno Drift, 100AW, Olympus, Oregon Trail, and Ojibwe or LSPR as the final. One of those events should be added back to the RA calendar anyhow in my opinion. Nothing against NEFR or STPR I was just looking more towards towing reduction for teams and mixed surface. That could probably be done at $10-15k for the year for a privateer team and 25-100k for a manufacturer supported effort.
Two close together east/central early in the year. Two close west events mid year. Final central event at the end of the year. The prize purse of Max Attack. The hype of Rally America. Overlap with the Fiesta R2 cup.
 
#9 ·
Idea:

Assuming another $15000 yearly prize purse is available for the 2012 season.

Reduce the qualifier prize fund to $2500 per event.

Keep the $5000 prize fund for the shootout.

Offer the top five finishing teams from the qualifier rounds a MA tow fund of $100 for every 500 miles of tow distance the competitor lives from the shootout event. Example tow from Oregon is 1700 miles, a $300 MA tow fund.

If 10 teams accept the tow fund, and said fund averages $300 per team, the total payout from the MA Organization is $3000.

The examples $2000 surplus could be used for any number of things, like advertising the series.
 
#10 · (Edited)
I think the series should be for Regional entries only,no dual National/Regional entries.
Have 2 qualifying events, for points only, on each side of the country. One at a National if you feel it is needed and one at good local Regional event.
Have the finals in the middle of the country somewhere. All sponsorship money goes to a tow fund for all the entrants, and prize money for the top 10 finishers in the finals.
Most RA nationals only get 5 or so 2WD entries, I going to guess the reason, is that for the most part you can enter the Regional and run the same roads for $500.00 or so less in entry fee. And the Regional usually has more entries.
Keep the $500.00 for an entry fee for an event later in the year, like your 2nd MA! event.
If I recall the series was set up for the grass roots, little guy rally teams. Having to run Nationals against funded, and some cases factory teams, defeats that point.

Sean Gallagher
 
#11 ·
The Duplessis, Van Way, Knox, ACP's of the nation are the guys who are going to be at the events regardless of MA (obviously as long as they are all RA events). So the question then becomes what is meaningful to the guys who aren't already chasing a championship? If nobody can make the tow, there's no sense in providing two championships for the same people. I relate it to the AMA Supercross series. The 450 riders have the funding for the national championship, while the lites have their own battles on the East and West. At the end of the season, the East and West lites have their own championships, then after that, they have their East vs. West race, however, it's not the focus. The focus is on being either the East champ, or the West champ.

Has there been serious discussion on having a regional Maxattack! series? In the grand scope of things, even the regions can be pretty big for many competitors, let alone the whole country. What if each region had their own MA series within it with 2 or 3 MA rallies?
 
#12 ·
the goal is to get the fastest 2wd racers in the US to all race against each other.

So splitting up the series won't achieve that. Also having a MA finale @ a RA national makes a lot of sense (esp if its also a ford fiesta R2 cup event)

switching the qualifier prize from a check for cash, to a Tow fund, redeemable only if you Start the MA shoot out. Should dramatically help your turn out the shoot out.

switching the qualifiers from a national to a regional Might help turn out.
if there are some teams who have a cost savings doing a regional only .
if some "big dogs" miss the regional allowing a smaller team to claim the tow fund
if it allows a more central (to the region) or a cheaper rally to be choosen

You could consider adding some verbage so that the top 3 or top 5 RA national (and usrc too , why not?) competitors also are invited to compete for the MA finale .

Now you could have a situation where 5 qualifier teams on each coast won an invite with tow funds , and the top 5 RA national 2wheelers are invited, and its a national. that **could** give you 15 of the fastest 2wd racers in the country, all racing to be #1, at the same event.

I think that achieves the goal the best .... but there's a lot of "Ifs" in my idea...... . :O
 
#13 ·
the goal is to get the fastest 2wd racers in the US to all race against each other.
Is it?

http://max-attack.com/about said:
The goal of the MaxAttack! Rally Series is to fulfill the mission of the RSGA by raising the level and awareness of meaningful two-wheel-drive competition in North America.
Seems to me that the goal that Jake had in mind was to encourage more competition among 2WD competitors, and by doing so, raise the level of competition. In other words, get more people into the category of "fastest 2WD racers."

Should Max-Attack! move to supporting regional championships? I don't know. But I'm pretty sure that in order to attract more people to the sport we need to focus more on regional than national overall.
 
#14 ·
Mark, I agree, MaxAttack was designed to be an entry for people TOO GO rallying. Personally I think MA should be involved at regional level in every region that has a viable rally series (CA, NE, PNW, etc) and maybe have final end of the year rally that has the top 5 from each series where they can have the prize money. stuart
 
#19 · (Edited)
Mark, I agree, MaxAttack was designed to be an entry for people TOO GO rallying.
Nope, not really. I mean, we always welcome newcomers! But to say it was intended as an entry level championship is not correct. Equal opportunity championship? Sure. The word Jake and I kept using was "INclusive" instead of EXclusive. A place where everyone is welcome, it pays down far enough to get a decent reward for a fine drive, it costs just 50 bux to enter, it's limited enough and spaced out far enough temporally to allow working men and women get their equipment ready between rounds and campaign an entire championship, and it's valuable enough due to the depth of competition and prestige that sponsors (team sponsors, event sponsors, and series sponsors) can all see some value for it. In short, it is (in my less than humble opinion) the first rally championship in America that was designed around the actual market of rallyists. It serves a greater contingency of the actual population of rally people than anything done by other organizations in the past.

Every time someone tries to make it EXclusive (either up the seed list or down it), I cringe. That's not what we set out to do, and an inclusive format is the ONLY way I see to continually make it successful so that all parties see benefit to help ensure it's future.
 
#15 ·
The RSGA organization is small. I'd guess five people probably. I think everyone should look to places like the PNW region and things that people like Charles have done to encourage more competition at their regional events by building prize funds for 2WD. Sno Attack at Sno Drift is another great example of a community stepping up support of 2WD rallying. Form a group of people, pick three regional events, start promoting those events as your local 2WD championship. Figure out an added benefit for those events. Tow funds, sponsor subsidized entry fee reductions, video production, free schwag, etc.

Some good ideas in this thread!
 
#20 ·
I think everyone should look to places like the PNW region and things that people like Charles have done to encourage more competition at their regional events by building prize funds for 2WD. Sno Attack at Sno Drift is another great example of a community stepping up support of 2WD rallying.
Agreed. I've had lots of organizers call and ask (or sometimes just tell me) they are planning on copying what we do in their region. I tell them to go for it. I realize we can't be everywhere for every rallyist across the country, so if you can do something to improve regional competition in your part of the world, do it! Perhaps it will inspire teams to want to try to go bigger for MA next year!

I've had organizers call wanting to have their rally be a MaxAttack! event and it just wouldn't work, but I've suggested to them myself that, though I can't make your event an MA rally, there's no reason you can't create a similar magic for your local guys. Just think like a competitor and ask what would I like? (Besides free tires.)

Does it dilute the competition or turnout for MaxAttack!? Perhaps a little. But the greater good to rallying is improved.

Some good ideas in this thread!
Agreed.
 
#16 ·
I don't think the whole "you NEED a G5 car" is correct. Yes, you do have an obvious advantage car wise, but good drivers have shown lesser powered cars can still be competitive (Wimpeys, Duplessis, Greenhouse, Bushore, Crane, Zedrils, etc).

When people run these 1-2 events per year, it's hard to develop as a driver so people choose to just build the "perfect car" it seems. You also might get the "fast guys with fast cars" who might only come out for these 1-2 events.

But it does seem that you get guys who will show up for their 1 MA event in their region and that's it.
 
#17 ·
I LOVE the no prize money switch to a tow fund idea!! That sounds like a great thing to try. Maybe $1000 at each qualifier, with a larger purse at the final. Now the east coast guys may complain that it benefits a west coast team due to the long tow, but it would be great to have those top 5 regional teams out there battling with the national guys. Epic would be 15 team sthat can win it. Could you imagine the top 10 all on the same minute half way through a rally? Epic.
 
#21 · (Edited)
I am really liking this thread.

I am also really liking this series as is and find need for very little change.

What kind of series is this? Tittle MAXATTACK! really says it all doesn't it? Run what you brung and peddle it faster than you ever have.

Who is the series trying to attract? Everyone, because it is the biggest party in town. MA! needs its smaller platform to make it a bigger deal. When there are only 1 or 2 times a year that you get this kind of field together it is exciting. Having people run their local MA! event as their only event of the year says good things about the series. On the other side of the same coin, it says great things, not only about the series, but about the state of 2WD rally in the US if that same all out attack and meaningful competition can attract big names and big money.

I do like the tow fund idea. What is to stop us from making a tow fund thread here much like the 2WD prize funds Charles puts together. I'd give gas money to the highest placing team at the west coast event attending LSPR if it meant seeing deeper competition at the final.
 
#22 ·
Holy Tow dudes!
gas is killer expensive.
I'm doing a bunch of events this year because I can, for the first time in awhile.
getting to some of the events has cost more than the entry fees. I've been lucky to couch surf a few times too.
I'm only going to mendicino, because it was cheaper to fly home from reno then drive the rig back up to seattle.
I feel that every event I do - I'm going for the 2wd win.
It felt great to get 5th at Oly. I also know that it was reliability that got me there.

Having said all that, I'm realizing that the car matters, on any event.
Idaho would have made a great Max attack event for the smoothest roads around, but because they were SOOOO smooth, the results shook out quickly and predictably.
Reno would make a better event, the roads were variable enough to give me a shot.

I'm not sure how stoked I am to be racing against nationally entered drivers.
people running the champ, are different than me.
I want to say that a month of prep could get me on the same footing, but they've invested more than I could on doing well.
group2 is where it's at. and I'm happy being able to throw down at one event for some cash, but
I'd rather do more events than fewer, and until I've WON some 2wd events locally, I'm not going dashing across the country.

This mumble might have been influenced by traveling out of the cozy PNW and being shown a thing or two by fast californians.
 
#23 · (Edited)
.

This mumble might have been influenced by traveling out of the cozy PNW and being shown a thing or two by fast Californians.
[/QUOTE]

When you're used to running on rough roads, a smooth route is a walk in the park.
There's a few fast 2WD California drivers that didn't go to NNR that could show you a few more things.
Just sayin'.

Sean Gallagher
 
#26 · (Edited)
Um, I'm pretty sure I was at NNR... :)

I've run up in the PNW, and swapped some times with Adam at, ummm...OTR 2008? And maybe a DooWops or two? And I know GvB went up there last year and impressed a few people. And I definitely remember having my ass handed to me by a couple of people - Tom Burress sure could pedal that blue bunny, and Cody was stonkin' fast when he had tires. There're a lot of others too.

The fun thing is that the roads and conditions are different in different places, and it always takes awhile for people to adjust. I remember my first DooWops - did ok on day 1 and then on day 2 some wet stuff started falling from the sky and it freaked me out. OTOH, nighttime dust doesn't bother me because I'm used to it. Similarly, exposures don't bother SW or PNW people, but then they head out to 100AW or LSPR and find the water crossings and are, like, "WTF? How do I attack that fast?".


Anyway, I'm really gratified to hear that you liked the roads and suggest us for a MaxAttack event, Adam. I actually had a short email exchange with Lurch about it early last year, but it was just an exploratory conversation. At this point, I'm not sure we could do it anyway. The pre-event planning for NNR is almost entirely just Pete and me, and we're perpetually short of volunteers to work the event. In many ways, the only way we have been able to pull off the event is that we have such a fantastic group of dedicated and experienced volunteers that we often double- or even triple-stack them with duties - and they cheerfully make it happen. At this point, the thought of having more cars, or a more press folks, or spectators just gives me the heeby-jeebies. We're looking at ways to expand our planning committee and volunteer base, but for the moment the plan is to just polish up some of the organizational aspects and tweak the schedule to make it easier for everyone and keep concentrating on putting on a regional event with a focus on the fun factor.
 
#27 · (Edited)
Question; some people keep pitching the east vs west thing out. Has there been anything talked about to try and branch out into Canada?

Someone mentioned the Zedrils, but there are many more 2wd teams on both east and west coasts up here too. With regionals and nationals from CARS,RA and NASA relatively close to the border if there was some incentive to bring Canadians south and American's north I think it would raise the bar in terms of 2wd competition by getting teams out of there comfort zones and truly hone their skills away from their home terrain.

Much like mentioned here
The fun thing is that the roads and conditions are different in different places, and it always takes awhile for people to adjust. I remember my first DooWops - did ok on day 1 and then on day 2 some wet stuff started falling from the sky and it freaked me out. OTOH, nighttime dust doesn't bother me because I'm used to it. Similarly, exposures don't bother SW or PNW people, but then they head out to 100AW or LSPR and find the water crossings and are, like, "WTF? How do I attack that fast?".

Just a thought, that being said I'm relatively new to the rally scene and this is just from following the CRC the last 3-4 years and attending the same national everytime and working one regional
 
#31 ·
I ride public transportation daily. My pass expired at the end of May but will be valid mid-August again. I've been lucky so far that I've not gotten one of the $50 tickets for riding the train without valid fare. I heard recently of someone being denied entry into Canada after getting one of those tickets since they basically call the ticket 'theft of public property.' DUI's and such also fail. There was a discussion once about Tall Pines being a potentially great addition. That thread would have lots of reasons why expansion into Canada will have to be a Canadian based effort.
 
#32 ·
We're based out of Ottawa, Ontario, so there are several American rallies potentially within our towing range. But we are fortunate to be blessed with so many rallies to chose from here at home, Ontario and Quebec Regional rallies, as well as Cdn National rallies, all conveniently located within an easy day's drive. So we've only ever made it to one US venue, NEFR.

Competing in West Coast rallies is not (yet) within our budget, monetarily or vacation-time.

Our only US event in the year, NEFR, is particularly attractive for us because it's MaxAttack! It's an opportunity for us to measure ourselves against America's best 2wd teams (at least those that can make it out East).

The MaxAttack prize money certainly is a draw, but in three years trying we've still not managed to benefit from any of that. But that's not the only attraction.

Other big events sometime leave you thinking that your lowly presence goes entirely unnoticed. They'll happily take your entry fee, then forget all about you while lavishing all the attention and recognition on only the top three Open Class podium finishers.

MaxAttack however (Eric, Ben, Grant) goes out of its way to ensure that EVERYONE gets mentioned in the MaxAttack Press Notes, EVERYONE gets video coverage, and EVERYONE gets recognition for their efforts whether they were successful or not. After spending all the money to build a rally team, tow to the event, and compete, even if you finish dead last, it's still nice to know that somebody actually noticed you were there. It seems like such a small thing, but it's important.

We've been to NEFR three times now, and each time we make new friends, people whose names I've only known before through these forums, or seen on entry lists and results, but not actually met yet.

Greg Healey in the Datsun 280Z, and Justin Carven in the Greasecar, have come up before to do several different Canadian events with a variety of different co-drivers. Some of you other guys should seriously consider coming up to Bancroft for the Rally of the Tall Pines. Notes provided, two-pass recce, shakedown, awesome roads, and Canada!
 
#34 ·
Well said, and congrats to you and Martin the podium finish there this year. Can't wait to see the white rocket at Tall Pines
 
#33 ·
Thanks Ferd. The collective story of rallying is so much more than what happens at a race track. It's an adventure punctuated by intense competition. Hence, proper reporting of the sport, in my opinion, should not follow cookie cutter motorsports reporting practices. To do so does the sport of rallying a disservice. Only through knowing the collective trials do you understand the nature of our sport, and only then can you fully appreciate the accomplishments of those who excel in it.

Tall Pines has been on my list since my dad ran it. Still need to get up there. Need to renew my passport!
 
#35 ·
well i want to make it out for 2012 in at least one maxattack event. first event i plan on running is idaho since well its in my backyard. (i live 4 minutes from HQ...) but since i planned on two or three events, the next will might likely be maxattack as long as its not 2930 miles from me.
 
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