Co-driver Conference Call IX, Tues 9/29, 8 p.m. CENTRAL
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  1. #1
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    Exclamation Co-driver Conference Call IX, Tues 9/29, 8 p.m. CENTRAL

    Co-drivers one and all,

    Please join us for our ninth FREE co-driver conference call.

    Date: Tuesday September 29th
    Time: 6 p.m. Pacific / 7 p.m. Mountain / 8 p.m. Central / 9 p.m. Eastern

    Dial in: (218) 339-4600
    Code: 989102#

    Please bring up topics specific to the co-driver (e.g. rules, differences in procedure, challenges, driver feedback, event feedback, general thoughts).

    Proposed Agenda:

    1. Past events debrief:
    - Ojibwe Forests Rally [Paul Bunyan's Ride / 10,000 Lakes] (Aug 28-29)
    - Gorman Ridge Rally (Aug 29)
    - Rallye Defi (Sep 11-12)
    - Targa Newfoundland (Sep 12-19)
    - Rally Colorado [Middle Cog 1/Middle Cog 2] (Sep 19-20)
    - Black River Stages (Sep 19-20)
    - Wild West [Lewis and Clark Trail Stages / Rucherts Reward] (Sep 26-27)

    2. Upcoming events:
    - Prescott Rally (Oct 2-3)
    - Pacific Forest Rally (Oct 2-3)
    - LSPR (Oct 16-17)
    - IRNY (Oct 23-24)
    - Mt. Hood (Oct 24)
    - Rallye de Charlevoix (Oct 24)

    3. Novice co-driver Q&A session. Passive listeners welcome, however novice co-drivers are actively encouraged to participate and ask questions. Please feel free to ask any questions you want, even if they seem basic

    4. MaxAttack feedback

    5. Competitor first aid & ham radio training

    6. Running overall vs. incremental mileages (advantages, disadvantages, when to use which etc.)

    7. Using paper maps & Potti/Barrow-style magnifiers (see: http://www.donbarrow.co.uk/magnifiers.html)

    8. Possible move of co-driver conference calls from Tuesday to either Wednesday or Thursday

    9. Date for next conference call

    Topics we don't discuss due to time limits will be carried forward & added to next conference call's list of agenda items.

    Additional co-driver related agenda items welcome. PM me or post in this thread and I'll update the proposed agenda.

    Request: Please be considerate i.e. NO calls from noisy places e.g. bars, sports venues etc. as it ruins the call quality for everyone else.

    If you can't make it, you can always read the meeting minutes when posted after the call. And if you have questions, feel free to submit them ahead of time, and you can read the responses in the meeting minutes too. Also, please switch fax machines on shared / party lines off.

    Please help spread the word. You may learn something here. You may be able to help others learn something here. Whether you already are, or plan to be a co-driver, there's a good chance a great deal of collective wisdom (well, at least, of the rally co-driver variety) can be found here.
    Last edited by Audi UrQ; 09-29-2009 at 08:21 AM. Reason: Added agenda items for competitor first aid & ham radio training, also for possible move of day conf call is held

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  3. #2
    into right 2 tightens
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    Co-driver Conference Call IX (9/29) Minutes, courtesy of Amy Feistel

    1. Past events debrief:
    - Ojibwe Forests Rally [Paul Bunyan's Ride / 10,000 Lakes] (Aug 28-29) - fun rally, MaxAttack! event, tricky roads, last jump on last stage can be difficult landing

    - Gorman Ridge Rally (Aug 29) - rough roads, sandy, uphill sections, 16 total entries - reduced number of entries compared to previous years, as is the case for many other events this year, NASA Rally Sport event, roughness of event may be a factor in deterring some entries, though in actual fact the roads this year were a lot smoother than in previous years

    - Rallye Defi (Sep 11-12) - rough sections, should learn a bit of French (to read the road book), final control of each day was a MTC but was not defined as such in the English documents, limited English among volunteers, TSD experience helped with directions (in the road book) during recce, no organizer supplied notes, a lot of DNFs due to car destruction - event is rough, sweep do a very good job with extractions - one of the sweep teams have been working together for 18 years (!)

    - Targa Newfoundland (Sep 12-19) - summary posted by Jeff Hagan below in this thread (https://www.specialstage.com/forums/s...0&postcount=10), timing has been simplified, schedule requires 7-9 days of vacation, many rallyists cannot do this event in addition to other stage rally events

    - Rally Colorado [Middle Cog 1/Middle Cog 2] (Sep 19-20) - there were a larger group of volunteers from other events (Rally America series regulars), four day event plus travel time - difficult schedule, some competitors skip recce due to schedule, large number of spectators, well run event, standard Jemba stages notes + 1-pass notes familiarization pass

    - Black River Stages (Sep 19-20) - first aid discussion (see below)

    - Wild West [Lewis and Clark Trail Stages / Rucherts Reward] (Sep 26-27) - route book only, fast roads, 20 cars and 3 motorcycles, one corner took out 3 cars - double caution on call in road book, stage "preview" was not particularly useful to co-drivers


    2. Upcoming events:
    - Prescott Rally (Oct 2-3) - no-one on call planning to compete

    - Pacific Forest Rally (Oct 2-3) - no-one on call planning to compete

    - LSPR (Oct 16-17) - no recce, tight/twisty stages, jumps, a good mix of terrain and roads, well organized event

    - IRNY (Oct 23-24) - 24 entries to date, conditioning of old roads, primarily new custom-built roads, 2 pass recce

    - Mt. Hood (Oct 24) - 1 day regional event, NASA Rally Sport event, 2 pass recce, 2 stages overlap w/ Oregon Trials rally, uses Modified-FIA system for timing

    - Rallye de Charlevoix (Oct 24) - fun event, great fans, weather is challenging, long mileage, part of Quebec regional series


    3. Novice co-driver Q&A session.
    - How to connect with a driver for competition? Most co-drivers meet the drivers at some event, continuing to stay in touch and, eventually, negotiating a partnership for competition.

    - 2-3 pass recce compared to Jemba notes w/ or w/out 1 pass recce - if "perfect notes" from a multi-pass recce are considered a "10", then it was suggested that Jemba Notes may be considered a "7.5 - 8". Jemba Notes are intended to describe the road, they are not intended to indicate the pace that competitors should be driving. Driving is different dependent upon the kind of notes you have (recce or Jemba).

    - How long does it take to become reasonably proficient at writing your own notes? Christian Edstrom suggests "half a dozen events".

    - Video recce? One team used it for tricky intersection but not to adjust/correct all organizer provided notes, doesn't communicate much information about road condition and camber, may be somewhat useful if video is run at a faster speed (e.g. 1.5* - 3*) to simulate rally speed.

    - What does "caution" mean? Depends on the rally, run several stages and gauge the severity once you're familiar with how the stage notes writer is gauging the severity, co-drivers may need to increase volume/tone.

    - Controls and calculating in-times - double-check with your driver - have the driver calculate it as a cross-check, calculate the in-time 2 or 3 separate times on the transit to cross-check your math, feel free to ask the car in front of you or behind you - generally, you can use them as a point of reference that you are arriving at the correct time, remember that all you need to know happens in the car, don't over-think it - mistakes will happen, hold the driver at the end of the stage to double check 1) the time you think you finished the stage and 2) give the driver time to calm down after the stage adrenaline rush, immediately ask for the volunteer to correct an error, make sure volunteers are writing legibly on the time card.


    4. MaxAttack feedback
    - popular with grassroots competitors
    - some competitors who have done a regional series (e.g. CRS) are considering doing the MaxAttack! series instead next year
    - a great way to compare yourself to competitors outside of your region
    - discussions for next year are beginning so, please submit feedback to Ben Bradley and Eric Burmeister
    - possibly similar format to this year's schedule
    - get schedule out earlier rather than later so competitors can plan in advance


    5. Competitor first aid & ham radio training
    - should it be required or strongly encouraged?
    - standardization is obviously desirable, but how is "standard" determined?
    - strongly encourage basic first-aid training, but it seems somewhat questionable exactly how useful/applicable basic generic first-aid training may be to rally-specific incident scenarios
    - Most practical approach may be to strongly encourage competitors to complete a basic first aid training course through an accredited provider e.g. American Red Cross;
    and then make a one-sheet available detailing rally-specific incident guidelines & principles
    - Oregon Rally Group has in the past held a modified first-aid training class with certified instructors, encouraged rather than required (also investigating doing another one in the near future)
    - Basic incident procedure should be: 1) secure the scene first e.g. putting out triangles etc.; 2) provide immediate care, if necessary, based on experience level; 3) call for advanced medical support if necessary
    - radio operators on scene should remain on the radio if possible, to communicate details to net control (but be discreet where possible with sensitive info)
    - fire extinguisher graphic available as a resource on NASA Rally Sport web site (http://www.nasarallysport.com/graphi...e-On-White.png)


    6. Running overall vs. incremental mileages (advantages, disadvantages, when to use which etc.) - tabled until next call


    7. Using paper maps & Potti/Barrow-style magnifiers (see: http://www.donbarrow.co.uk/magnifiers.html) - tabled until next call


    8. Possible move of co-driver conference calls from Tuesday to either Wednesday or Thursday
    Wednesday seems preferable to Thursday to increase likelihood that competitors will be available rather than in transit to an event


    9. Date for next conference call
    Wednesday, October 28, 2009 - 8:00pm Central Standard Time
    Last edited by Audi UrQ; 09-30-2009 at 03:35 PM. Reason: Corrected minutes to read 2-pass recce for IRNY, instead of 3-pass

  4. #3
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    I am going to try get in on this. Mt Hood will be my first rally!
    Dan Norkus
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  6. #4
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    This has popped up again and I think it might be important to discuss. Competitor first aid training. There is already a thread going on but like I said, I think it might be worth throwing in there. But what do I know, I'm still confused that I have 3 pedals but only 2 feet.

  7. #5
    Left seat and not British! Kim 100AW's Avatar
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    Piers,

    I TOLD you to keep Rooney on the road!!!

    Hey...you're in charge again. I now have an every Tuesday night 7:00 - 9:30 obligation...at least for the next month or so....

    I'll read the minutes with eager anticipation.

    Thanks
    Kim DeMotte
    Official Very Experienced Fart

  8. #6
    'is the engine bogging?' RobBohn's Avatar
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    I'm going to miss this one unfortunately (will be in-flight) - would love to hear the stories!

    I had some good stories from the Great 2010 Mustang Shootout (navving for TWO drivers on the same road and same car over and over) but that will have to be for a later day...
    Rob Bohn

    "If you're in control, you're not driving fast enough." - Parnelli Jones
    "If you're in a control, don't go backwards." - anonymous
    Old Co-Driver's FAQ at RallyCoDrivers.org / slideshow here

  9. #7
    Left seat and not British! Kim 100AW's Avatar
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    Gang,

    Any chance we could bump these to a Wednesday or Thursday night schedule? My Monday and Tuesday nights are clobbered for the foreseeable future. No worries if not...Piers, could you make that an agenda item tonight?

    Thanks
    Kim DeMotte
    Official Very Experienced Fart

  10. #8
    into right 2 tightens
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    Quote Originally Posted by ajax View Post
    This has popped up again and I think it might be important to discuss. Competitor first aid training. There is already a thread going on but like I said, I think it might be worth throwing in there. But what do I know, I'm still confused that I have 3 pedals but only 2 feet.
    Added. I think all competitors should strongly be encouraged to take at least a basic first aid class (whether it becomes mandatory or not). And also to take the basic tech class ham radio exam (it's really not that difficult since all the test questions are taken from a set pool of questions known ahead of time), though in fact even just basic familiarization with radio operation would likely be a benefit in an emergency situation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kim 100AW View Post
    Piers,

    I TOLD you to keep Rooney on the road!!!
    Hey, there's only so much I can do with indirect control of the steering wheel and pedals. Though actually, in fairness to Tim, his driving on Sunday was smoother than the previous morning and we didn't have really have any major moments on Sunday up until that point. We just got caught out on a tricky corner (Cross Mtn #1, smCr into R4- into Finish). I believe ACP almost went off at the same corner too, and Worm downgraded that corner for their second run through. I think there may also have been at least one other team that almost got caught out at that same corner too.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kim 100AW View Post
    Hey...you're in charge again. I now have an every Tuesday night 7:00 - 9:30 obligation...at least for the next month or so....

    I'll read the minutes with eager anticipation.

    Thanks
    No prob, I'll run the meeting. Hopefully, if Amy is not on the call to take meeting minutes, someone else is willing to take meeting minutes as it's a little difficult to run a meeting and take minutes at the same time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kim 100AW View Post
    Gang,

    Any chance we could bump these to a Wednesday or Thursday night schedule? My Monday and Tuesday nights are clobbered for the foreseeable future. No worries if not...Piers, could you make that an agenda item tonight?

    Thanks
    Added to agenda. Between Weds & Thurs, I think Weds might work better since for many Fri/Sat rallies, people are likely to be on the road already on Thurs eves. But we always cover all rallies whether in the previous call or the following one. Will bring it up, and see whether people have any strong preferences.

  11. #9
    your other left, you idiot
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    Just remember, it's always the co-driver's fault........

    Quote Originally Posted by Audi UrQ View Post
    Hey, there's only so much I can do with indirect control of the steering wheel and pedals. Though actually, in fairness to Tim, his driving on Sunday was smoother than the previous morning and we didn't have really have any major moments on Sunday up until that point. We just got caught out on a tricky corner (Cross Mtn #1, smCr into R4- into Finish). I believe ACP almost went off at the same corner too, and Worm downgraded that corner for their second run through. I think there may also have been at least one other team that almost got caught out at that same corner too.
    press on,
    just a poor, dumb, Michigan(now Wisconsin) navie
    KC8YHT
    jimmy

  12. #10
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    Ack - I can't make it now that my martial arts class has moved to Tuesday nights.

    Too bad - I've wanted to learn more about map-reading for a while now.

    BTW - I doubt anyone else on the call was at Targa, so here's a debrief for the event:

    Numbers were down from previous years, but it was still fun to run. I didn't personally like the timing system (i.e. how we figured out when we were due at our stage start, not the electronic timing boards, which were actually pretty cool).

    I think because Targa attracts such a different crowd from normal rallies, they've been "dumbing down" the timing incrementally over the years. This year, rather than be given stage and transit times and some formula to calculate start times from them, they simply handed out start times for every stage that day each morning.

    I think it created more confusion than anything, especially when inevitable delays happened. I had a number of people coming up to me and asking what they should do when they realized that at the beginning of their "lunch break", their supposed start time for the next stage had already passed.

    The organizers had stated in the driver's meeting that if there was a delay, the times would be pushed back, but it wasn't ever really made clear how we were supposed to figure out how much they should be pushed back.

    In general, because it's exceptionally difficult to get a timing penalty at Targa when everything's running fine (see the bit above about "dumbing down" timing) we didn't worry too much about it, but if we had found ourselves in a situation where we needed time to fix something and wanted to know just how much time we could take before taking a penalty at the next stage start, there would've no clear way for me to figure out a time.

    Now... all in all, my experience was quite positive, even though we DNF'd on the first day (mechanical - engine). The timing stuff bugged me a bit, that's all.

    However, for the teams that were on the ball, the co-driver's role didn't have to be minimized: Targa has open service, and while they give a suggested service route, the crews don't have to follow it. This left lots of room for the teams (i.e. usually the co-driver) to customize exactly where and when they wanted their service crew to meet them.

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