Co-driver Conference Call VIII, Tues 8/25, 8 p.m. CENTRAL
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  1. #1
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    Exclamation Co-driver Conference Call VIII, Tues 8/25, 8 p.m. CENTRAL

    Co-drivers one and all,

    Please join us for our eighth FREE co-driver conference call.

    Date: Tuesday August 25th
    Time: 6 p.m. Pacific / 7 p.m. Mountain / 8 p.m. Central / 9 p.m. Eastern

    Dial in: (218) 339-4600
    Code: 989102#

    Please bring up topics specific to the co-driver (e.g. rules, differences in procedure, challenges, driver feedback, event feedback, general thoughts).

    Proposed Agenda:

    1. Past events debrief:
    - X Games 15 (Aug 2)
    - Galway-Cavendish Forest Rally (Aug 8)
    - Rallye Lac-aux-Sables (Aug 15)

    2. Upcoming events:
    - Ojibwe Forests Rally [Paul Bunyan's Ride / 10,000 Lakes] (Aug 28-29)
    - Gorman Ridge Rally (Aug 29)
    - Rallye Defi (Sep 11-12)
    - Targa Newfoundland (Sep 12-19)
    - Rally Colorado [Middle Cog 1/Middle Cog 2] (Sep 19-20)
    - Black River Stages (Sep 19-20)
    - Wild West [Lewis and Clark Trail Stages / Rucherts Reward] (Sep 26-27)

    3. Novice co-driver Q&A session. Passive listeners welcome, however novice co-drivers are actively encouraged to participate and ask questions. Please feel free to ask any questions you want, even if they seem basic

    4. MaxAttack feedback

    5. Co-driver tips / techniques to help the driver keep the car on the road
    e.g. from Kim: "personally I'd like to chat with any co-drivers who might have gotten wide at 1.72 miles into Stage 11 at NEFR...note read L5+ Stay Out (Rox) >4+/Cr. There were two HUGE boulders in that underbrush! This little gotcha caught a half dozen cars out including Block. We suffered terminal rear suspension damage and Shindle went over with Matt Bushore. I just want to chat about the note and discuss with others so similar miscalls don't happen in MY future! Yeah, pretty detail-y, but my interpretation is that it was a co-driver issue (we recce'd didn't we?)".

    6. Clarification on when you are, and more importantly when you are NOT, allowed to work on or service your car (please see post #3 below: https://www.specialstage.com/forums/s...08&postcount=3)

    7. Running overall vs. incremental mileages (advantages, disadvantages, when to use which etc.)

    8. Using paper maps & Potti/Barrow-style magnifiers (see: http://www.donbarrow.co.uk/magnifiers.html)

    9. Date for next conference call (propose Sep 29th)

    Topics we don't discuss due to time limits will be carried forward & added to next conference call's list of agenda items.

    Additional co-driver related agenda items welcome. PM me or post in this thread and I'll update the proposed agenda.

    Request: Please be considerate i.e. NO calls from noisy places e.g. bars, sports venues etc. as it ruins the call quality for everyone else.

    If you can't make it, you can always read the meeting minutes when posted after the call. And if you have questions, feel free to submit them ahead of time, and you can read the responses in the meeting minutes too. Also, please switch fax machines on shared / party lines off.

    Please help spread the word. You may learn something here. You may be able to help others learn something here. Whether you already are, or plan to be a co-driver, there's a good chance a great deal of collective wisdom (well, at least, of the rally co-driver variety) can be found here.
    Last edited by Audi UrQ; 08-25-2009 at 09:10 PM. Reason: corrected regional rally names for Wild West Rally

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  3. #2
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    Co-driver Conference Call VIII (8/25) Minutes

    1. Past events debrief:

    - X Games 15 (Aug 2) - no significant change in event from last year to this year, local announcers on site (no television coverage), Chrissie and Jen could talk to each other while in the car, spectator question posed to rallyist: "So what do they do? Just run into each other out here?", anecdotal evidence of more spectators attending event this year, it seems that more people know about "rally" and it can lead to a conversation about real rally.

    - Galway-Cavendish Forest Rally (Aug 8) - 21-22 cars at event, solid roads, not many DNFs, did have issues with ATV's which caused moderate delays, organization is laid-back, there is talk about expanding but need financing to repair some roads that connect to new stages and need additional marshals, regional rally.

    - Rallye Lac-aux-Sables (Aug 15) - none attended.

    2. Upcoming events:

    - Ojibwe Forests Rally [Paul Bunyan's Ride / 10,000 Lakes] (Aug 28-29) - weather supposed to be cool,rain will help with dust, mosquitoes are bad - bring bug spray, no recce, notes are okay, a couple good jumps, technical roads, MaxAttack event. Video recce available if purchasing stage notes - cannot pick it up until registration on Thursday - $50 cost, idea: it would be nice to have it several days in advance of the rally, idea: online registration link to download.

    - Gorman Ridge Rally (Aug 29) - Gibeaults are doing the notes (organizer supplied) and/or 2-pass recce available, 6 different stages (2 completely different roads, with the 3rd being a variation of one of the former, all 3 run in both directions), 13 entries currently with another 5 signed up but not paid yet, event needs 15 paid entries for event to break even, overlap with Ojibwe possibly contributed to a few lost entries, some competitors who went to or are planning to go to some of the other regional events with smoother roads, e.g. Idaho, North Nevada, Prescott, may have chosen to not run Gorman (selectively choosing event participation to balance budget, miles for money, etc.). More grading being done prior to event to help smooth out the roads though, so that should help. Also, several new competitors on entry list which is encouraging.

    - Rallye Defi (Sep 11-12) - Karen planning to run with Bruno in Open Class Subaru?

    - Targa Newfoundland (Sep 12-19) - tarmac stages, some broken pavement in small sections, lower number of entries this year, fun event, in town stages are great, largest difference is timing - handicap system to meet target time based on car class, attracts a lot of non-rally people - less co-driver intense aspects to event, issuing ideal time to start each stage - add on delays accumulated throughout day to calculate stage check-in time, control boards are text only rather than symbols, a lot of spectators in towns/schools, "hero" cards are very popular with children, navigation with road book.

    - Rally Colorado [Middle Cog 1/Middle Cog 2] (Sep 19-20) - no one on call planning to compete

    - Black River Stages (Sep 19-20) - no one on call planning to compete

    - Wild West [Lewis and Clark Trail Stages / Rucherts Reward] (Sep 26-27) - no one on call planning to compete, but same roads as last year

    3. Novice co-driver Q&A session:

    - Drink lots of water even if the weather is cool.

    - Targa Canada West possibly on next year's calendar.

    - Co-driver eating habits - high protein diet, not eating before rally, unable to eat after rally - possibly caused by dehydration, eat substantial meal in the morning - eat "normal" food throughout day - some "nervous" eating, co-drivers may need to think ahead re: meals depending on the level of the team/management, carry protein bars in the car, carry some kind of candy for last minute sugar push.

    4. MaxAttack feedback: tabled to next month's agenda so as to be able to include feedback from Ojibwe.

    5. Co-driver tips / techniques to help the driver keep the car on the road:

    e.g. from Kim: "personally I'd like to chat with any co-drivers who might have gotten wide at 1.72 miles into Stage 11 at NEFR...note read L5+ Stay Out (Rox) >4+/Cr. There were two HUGE boulders in that underbrush! This little gotcha caught a half dozen cars out including Block. We suffered terminal rear suspension damage and Shindle went over with Matt Bushore. I just want to chat about the note and discuss with others so similar miscalls don't happen in MY future! Yeah, pretty detail-y, but my interpretation is that it was a co-driver issue (we recce'd didn't we?)".
    - Christian Edstrom posted a response to this on SpecialStage -- " we had: Stay out L5+>4+/Cr<>4+/Cr in the notes, and had no issues on the corner."

    - Keep the driver concentrated on the process of becoming a better driver rather than on the competition.
    - Help redirect driver's attention to new stage rather than thinking too much about errors of the just completed stage.
    - Most successful strategy: drive your own race, push only as hard as you and your team are capable of handling.
    - Most drivers will perform better if they strive for seat time rather than for placement.

    What if driver is not listening?
    - adjust the notes to force driver to slow down
    - keep reading the notes - do not engage in a discussion on stage
    - regain control of the interior of the car at the earliest possible time

    6. Clarification on when you are, and more importantly when you are NOT, allowed to work on or service your car (please see post #3 below: https://www.specialstage.com/forums/s...08&postcount=3): not discussed as post #3 below gives detailed explanation

    7. Running overall vs. incremental mileages (advantages, disadvantages, when to use which etc.): tabled to next month's agenda.

    8. Using paper maps & Potti/Barrow-style magnifiers (see: http://www.donbarrow.co.uk/magnifiers.html): tabled to next month's agenda.

    9. Date for next conference call: planned for Sep 29
    Last edited by Audi UrQ; 08-25-2009 at 09:08 PM. Reason: corrected regional rally names for Wild West Rally

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    Clarification on when you are, and more importantly when you are NOT, allowed to work on or service your car:

    Per R-A Rulebook:

    7.5.A.6 All controls, (i.e., Observation Controls, MTCs, Arrival with Start
    Controls, Finish Controls, and Regrouping Controls) will be indicated
    by means of Rally America approved signs. A Control Zone is
    defined as being from 100' prior to the Clock sign or flying finish, to
    100' after the last manned portion of the control, unless indicated
    otherwise by Control Zone signs (illustrated in Appendix 2).

    7.5.A.7 All control zones are considered Parcs Fermé (refer to Article 7.5.I).
    No servicing of the rally vehicle is permitted in a control zone, except
    the cleaning of windows and lights is authorized, providing this act
    does not hinder the operation of the control or prevent you from
    starting on your assigned minute. As an example, the opening of
    your hood or trunk would be considered servicing. Competitors will
    be considered to be in the control zone the moment they check into
    the control, whether or not their car is within the physical boundaries
    of the control zone.

    Per NASA RallySport GRRs for Rallies:

    2.17.3 Control Check-In Procedure
    The check-in procedure begins at the moment the car passes the
    time controls area entry sign or when competitor hands in a time
    card.

    2.17.7 Control Zones
    At a special stage, the area from the first yellow sign to 160 feet
    after the last sign of both the start and finish control is considered
    a Control Zone. If Control Zone signs are present, their location
    supersedes the aforementioned 160 foot distance. A control zone
    is considered Parc Fermé and servicing is prohibited. Competitors
    are allowed to clean lights and windows as long as it does not
    affect the operation of the control or their readiness to start the
    stage.

    Once a crew has checked in, their vehicle is considered within the
    control regardless of the vehicle’s physical locations.

    Per CARS GCRs & RRs:

    VI.A.5 All control areas (i.e. all the areas between the first yellow warning signal and the final beige sign with three transversal stripes) are considered as parcs fermé and no repairs or assistance may take place within the control area.

    Summary:

    U.S. (R-A & NASA): Once car is physically inside a control zone OR the team has already checked-in, the team is subject to penalties for servicing.

    Canada (CARS): Only when the car is physically inside a control zone (regardless of whether the team has already checked-in or not), the team is subject to penalties for servicing.

    Sidenotes:

    1. I personally think the U.S. system is fairer, since in the event of a delay and resulting back up inside an ATC control zone, a team just outside the control zone has the possibility of extended service not permitted by the team immediately ahead of them that is just inside the control zone.

    2. The CARS system is obviously easier to monitor/police by rally officials. The U.S. system, in cases where potential servicing infractions outside the control zone are dependent on whether the team has already checked-in or not, relies somewhat on teams monitoring/policing each other.
    Last edited by Audi UrQ; 08-18-2009 at 04:37 PM.

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    Wow, packed agenda! I think I can make this one.
    Greg Smith
    Four Rules Racing
    #751

  7. #5
    NASA Rally Sport grassroots!!! Anders Green's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Audi UrQ View Post
    Request: Please be considerate i.e. NO calls from noisy places e.g. bars, sports venues etc. as it ruins the call quality for everyone else.
    I'm also a big fan of the MUTE button on your phone. If you're not talking, please use it.

    Anders
    NASA Rally Sport Director
    Your question is probably answered in Rally University.

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    www.christianedstrom.com Bjorn240's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Audi UrQ View Post
    5. Co-driver tips / techniques to help the driver keep the car on the road e.g. from Kim: "personally I'd like to chat with any co-drivers who might have gotten wide at 1.72 miles into Stage 11 at NEFR...note read L5+ Stay Out (Rox) >4+/Cr. There were two HUGE boulders in that underbrush! This little gotcha caught a half dozen cars out including Block. We suffered terminal rear suspension damage and Shindle went over with Matt Bushore. I just want to chat about the note and discuss with others so similar miscalls don't happen in MY future! Yeah, pretty detail-y, but my interpretation is that it was a co-driver issue (we recce'd didn't we?)".
    Not sure I'll be on the call, but we had:

    Stay out L5+>4+/Cr<>4+/Cr in the notes, and had no issues on the corner.

    - Christian

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    I'll have to look up our notes but I don't even recall the corner so I presume it wasn't an issue.

    Looks like I might be able to make this call. I'll be sure to be on my best behavior and use MUTE a lot.

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    Kim notified me that he won't be able to make the conference call this eve (or if he does it'll be much later), so I'll be hosting the conference call this eve.

    Looking forward to a good discussion these eve with some of the regulars, and hopefully some novice co-drivers will tune too.

  11. #9
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    I'm going to try my best to call in this time. The past few calls, I either couldn't make it or found out about them after the fact.

    BTW - another upcoming event: Targa Newfoundland (Sept. 14-18)... though I don't know if anyone but me is entered and will be on the call.

  12. #10
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    Meeting minutes added to post #2.

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