Co-driver Conference Call VII, Tues 7/28, 8 p.m. CENTRAL
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  1. #1
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    Default Co-driver Conference Call VII, Tues 7/28, 8 p.m. CENTRAL

    Co-drivers one and all,

    Please join us for our seventh FREE co-driver conference call.

    Date: Tuesday July 28th
    Time: 6 p.m. Pacific / 7 p.m. Mountain / 8 p.m. Central / 9 p.m. Eastern

    Dial in: (218) 339-4600
    Code: 989102#

    Please bring up topics specific to the co-driver (e.g. rules, differences in procedure, challenges, driver feedback, event feedback, general thoughts).

    Proposed Agenda:

    1. Past events debrief:
    - Idaho Rally (Jul 9-11)
    - NEFR (Jul 17-18)
    - Pikes Peak International Hill Climb (Jul 19)
    - Nemadji Trails III (Jul 25)

    2. Upcoming events:
    - X Games 15 (Aug 2)
    -
    Galway-Cavendish Forest Rally (Aug 8)
    - Rallye Lac-aux-Sables (Aug 15)
    - Ojibwe Forests Rally [Paul Bunyan's Ride / 10,000 Lakes] (Aug 28-29)
    - Gorman Ridge Rally (Aug 29)

    Cancelled:

    - Rally West Virginia (Aug 7-8)
    [lack of entries]
    - North Nevada Rally (Aug 8) [date change forced, road restrictions, ultimately lack of entries]
    - Bighorn Rally (Aug 16) [roads denied, no other road options available at short notice]

    3. Novice co-driver Q&A session. Passive listeners welcome, however novice co-drivers are actively encouraged to participate and ask questions. Please feel free to ask any questions you want, even if they seem basic

    4. MaxAttack feedback

    5. Co-driver tips / techniques to help the driver keep the car on the road
    e.g. from Kim: "personally I'd like to chat with any co-drivers who might have gotten wide at 1.72 miles into Stage 11 at NEFR...note read L5+ Stay Out (Rox) >4+/Cr. There were two HUGE boulders in that underbrush! This little gotcha caught a half dozen cars out including Block. We suffered terminal rear suspension damage and Shindle went over with Matt Bushore. I just want to chat about the note and discuss with others so similar miscalls don't happen in MY future! Yeah, pretty detail-y, but my interpretation is that it was a co-driver issue (we recce'd didn't we?)".

    6. Clarification on when you are, and more importantly when you are NOT, allowed to work on or service your car (please see reply #6 below: https://www.specialstage.com/forums/s...12&postcount=6)

    7. Any other topics

    8. Date for next conference call (4th Tues = Aug 24th)

    Additional co-driver related agenda items welcome. PM me or post in this thread and I'll update the proposed agenda.

    Request: Please be considerate i.e. NO calls from noisy places e.g. bars, sports venues etc. as it ruins the call quality for everyone else.

    If you can't make it, you can always read the meeting minutes when posted after the call. And if you have questions, feel free to submit them ahead of time, and you can read the responses in the meeting minutes too. Also, please switch fax machines on shared / party lines off.

    Please help spread the word. You may learn something here. You may be able to help others learn something here. Whether you already are, or plan to be a co-driver, there's a good chance a great deal of collective wisdom (well, at least, of the rally co-driver variety) can be found here.
    Last edited by Audi UrQ; 07-28-2009 at 02:10 PM. Reason: Modified to show Bighorn Rally cancelled

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  3. #2
    Left seat and not British! Kim 100AW's Avatar
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    Piers,

    Thanks for posting. I would add a line item for MaxAttack (since it has been a key portion of both Idaho and NEFR)...

    And personally I'd like to chat with any co-drivers who might have gotten wide at 1.72 miles into Stage 11 at NEFR...note read L5+ Stay Out (Rox) >4+/Cr. There were two HUGE boulders in that underbrush! This little gotcha caught a half dozen cars out including Block. We suffered terminal rear suspension damage and Shindle went over with Matt Bushore. I just want to chat about the note and discuss with others so similar miscalls don't happen in MY future! Yeah, pretty detail-y, but my interpretation is that it was a co-driver issue (we recce'd didn't we?).

    Thanks!
    Kim DeMotte
    Official Very Experienced Fart

  4. #3
    'is the engine bogging?' RobBohn's Avatar
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    and maybe we can discuss the magic quarter mile that caught out two Mustangs at Nemadji Trail 3 (and was where we blew the engine last year) - what is it about that spot!
    Rob Bohn

    "If you're in control, you're not driving fast enough." - Parnelli Jones
    "If you're in a control, don't go backwards." - anonymous
    Old Co-Driver's FAQ at RallyCoDrivers.org / slideshow here

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  6. #4
    [email protected] -> Magnetic Tree
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    Rules/Procedural interpretations to discuss:

    "Working" on the car once you have checked into the ATC when the stage has been delayed.

    Ditto for "turn-around" stages where there is no official ATC and the control zone is not clearly defined.

  7. #5
    Left seat and not British! Kim 100AW's Avatar
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    Seems like there's TONS of stuff to talk about!

    Hear everybody tomorrow nite...8:00CDT
    Kim DeMotte
    Official Very Experienced Fart

  8. #6
    into right 2 tightens
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    Quote Originally Posted by RobBohn View Post
    and maybe we can discuss the magic quarter mile that caught out two Mustangs at Nemadji Trail 3 (and was where we blew the engine last year) - what is it about that spot!
    Hi Rob,

    I think just bring this up when we do the debrief of Nemadji Trails III

    Quote Originally Posted by Rallycat66 View Post
    Rules/Procedural interpretations to discuss:

    "Working" on the car once you have checked into the ATC when the stage has been delayed.

    Ditto for "turn-around" stages where there is no official ATC and the control zone is not clearly defined.
    Hi Tim,

    I'm not sure this is ambiguous / open to interpretation.

    Per R-A Rulebook:


    7.5.A.6 All controls, (i.e., Observation Controls, MTCs, Arrival with Start
    Controls, Finish Controls, and Regrouping Controls) will be indicated
    by means of Rally America approved signs. A Control Zone is
    defined as being from 100' prior to the Clock sign or flying finish, to
    100' after the last manned portion of the control, unless indicated
    otherwise by Control Zone signs (illustrated in Appendix 2).

    7.5.A.7 All control zones are considered Parcs Fermé (refer to Article 7.5.I).
    No servicing of the rally vehicle is permitted in a control zone, except
    the cleaning of windows and lights is authorized, providing this act
    does not hinder the operation of the control or prevent you from
    starting on your assigned minute. As an example, the opening of
    your hood or trunk would be considered servicing. Competitors will
    be considered to be in the control zone the moment they check into
    the control, whether or not their car is within the physical boundaries
    of the control zone.

    Per NASA RallySport GRRs for Rallies:

    2.17.3 Control Check-In Procedure
    The check-in procedure begins at the moment the car passes the
    time controls area entry sign or when competitor hands in a time
    card.

    2.17.7 Control Zones
    At a special stage, the area from the first yellow sign to 160 feet
    after the last sign of both the start and finish control is considered
    a Control Zone. If Control Zone signs are present, their location
    supersedes the aforementioned 160 foot distance. A control zone
    is considered Parc Fermé and servicing is prohibited. Competitors
    are allowed to clean lights and windows as long as it does not
    affect the operation of the control or their readiness to start the
    stage.

    Once a crew has checked in, their vehicle is considered within the
    control regardless of the vehicle’s physical locations.

    Per CARS GCRs & RRs:

    VI.A.5 All control areas (i.e. all the areas between the first yellow warning signal and the final beige sign with three transversal stripes) are considered as parcs fermé and no repairs or assistance may take place within the control area.

    Summary:

    U.S. (R-A & NASA): Once car is physically inside a control zone OR the team has already checked-in, the team is subject to penalties for servicing.

    Canada (CARS): Only when the car is physically inside a control zone (regardless of whether the team has already checked-in or not), the team is subject to penalties for servicing.

    Sidenotes:

    1. I personally think the U.S. system is fairer, since in the event of a delay and resulting back up inside an ATC control zone, a team just outside the control zone has the possibility of extended service not permitted by the team immediately ahead of them that is just inside the control zone.

    2. The CARS system is obviously easier to monitor/police by rally officials. The U.S. system, in cases where potential servicing infractions outside the control zone are dependent on whether the team has already checked-in or not, relies somewhat on teams monitoring/policing each other.

    Will add to agenda for discussion though.
    Last edited by Audi UrQ; 07-28-2009 at 02:15 PM. Reason: Added CARS rules, summary & sidenotes.

  9. #7
    Dramamine is for DramaQueens Morison's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Audi UrQ View Post
    Co-drivers one and all,
    Please join us for our seventh FREE co-driver conference call.
    I can't make these calls, as much as I'd like to.
    2. Upcoming events:[SIZE=2]
    - Bighorn Rally (Aug 16)
    Bighorn has been CANCELLED

    6. Clarification on when you are, and more importantly when you are NOT, allowed to work on or service your car
    Just to mix it up a bit, the CARS rule only applies to the physical control zone.
    Keith Morison
    Morison Communications

  10. #8
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    Thanks Keith,

    OP and post #6 updated accordingly.

  11. #9

    Default Notes from Co-driver Call

    Co-driver conference call - minutes

    1. Past events debrief:
    - Idaho Rally (Jul 9-11) - excellent event, great roads with a lot of grip, average speeds on fast roads were (estimation) 75 mph, roads held up to multiple use, timing/scoring was best ever seen - Gibeaults did a good job, 300+ spectators at jump - people on stages, watching corners, schedule/time controls could use improvement, all service in/out were labeled as MTCs, route book did not show control locations, double-sided stage notes.

    * It is very rare to get unsolicited feedback from competitors so if you have comments, please take the time to write and document your ideas and sent it to the organizer.

    - NEFR (Jul 17-18) - canceled 2 stages b/c lack of ambulance, one corner (over crest, tightens over dirt pile, large boulders) took out multiple cars - what could have prevented it? paying closer attention to turn during recce should have had a single caution or notation re: off-camber, possible mistake by P. Lahm when writing notes (?), event appeared up to RA standards, organization appeared to be disheveled but managed to pull things together on Saturday (Friday was long/delayed/etc.), there was confusion over a transit was a recce pass (?).

    (e.g. from Kim: "personally I'd like to chat with any co-drivers who might have gotten wide at 1.72 miles into Stage 11 at NEFR...note read L5+ Stay Out (Rox) >4+/Cr. There were two HUGE boulders in that underbrush! This little gotcha caught a half dozen cars out including Block. We suffered terminal rear suspension damage and Shindle went over with Matt Bushore. I just want to chat about the note and discuss with others so similar miscalls don't happen in MY future! Yeah, pretty detail-y, but my interpretation is that it was a co-driver issue (we recce'd didn't we?)".) - see above

    - Pikes Peak International Hill Climb (Jul 19) - long event due to practice days, early practice times, great event, gloves are mandatory (full safety equipment), 3 practice runs on stage - based on whomever is ready to go, race up & down before next vehicle is released, practice done by class groups for lower/middle/upper sections and rotate by day, if wanting to make recce notes - do it in advance (before event practice opens) and use practice runs to clean up notes, used some video to assist w/ notes (in rental car after practice was complete). Next year road will be paved.

    - Nemadji Trails III (Jul 25) - several DNFs, roads are clay & gravel, road surface changes through-out the stages, rained a lot this year, run as a one-day event, great first event for novice competitors, 12 competitors started this year.

    2. Upcoming events:
    - X Games 15 (Aug 2) - no co-drivers at this event!
    - Galway-Cavendish Forest Rally (Aug 8)
    - Rallye Lac-aux-Sables (Aug 15)
    - Ojibwe Forests Rally [Paul Bunyan's Ride / 10,000 Lakes] (Aug 28-29)
    - Gorman Ridge Rally (Aug 29)

    Cancelled:
    - Rally West Virginia (Aug 7-8) - canceled due to lack of entries
    - North Nevada Rally (Aug 8) - ordered to change dates of event (by BLM), new date had conflicts (competitors/volunteers), BLM cut road use to 50% of previous year (stage mileage cut by 50%), low number of entries, various volunteer issues, etc.
    - Bighorn Rally (Aug 16)

    3. Novice co-driver Q&A session. Passive listeners welcome, however novice co-drivers are actively encouraged to participate and ask questions. - no questions

    4. MaxAttack feedback - topic post-poned to next call

    5. Tips techniques to help the driver keep the car on the road - topic post-poned to next call

    6. Any other topics - 80mph averages - how rallies deal with high speeds - RA threatens organizers w/ not being able to use roads, campaigning for changes is not likely to be successful, giving an average of 80mph for fast stages is not a useful incentive, NRS does not have rules re: maximum speeds, working with organizers to make stages safe and usable is the best option, chicanes can be put in to make a road work - Amy consults with P. Lahm to determine where chicanes should be placed on stage.

    7. Date for next conference call (4th Tues = Aug 25th)
    Two topics for next call: running overall vs. incremental mileages, using paper maps, rules/procedural interpretations to discuss: "Working" on the car once you have checked into the ATC when the stage has been delayed. Ditto for "turn-around" stages where there is no official ATC and the control zone is not clearly defined.

    Additional co-driver/navigator related agenda items welcome.
    Amy Feistel
    KJ4DNH

  12. #10

    Default

    Okay.. so I can't count. That's FOUR topics for next call!
    Amy Feistel
    KJ4DNH

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