Meeting Minutes for Co-Driver Conference Call VI
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  1. #1
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    Default Meeting Minutes for Co-Driver Conference Call VI

    Meeting Minutes from Co-Driver Conference Call VI
    (meeting minutes courtesy of Amy Feistel & Piers O'Hanlon)

    Date: 6/30/09
    Time: 6 p.m. Pacific / 7 p.m. Mountain / 8 p.m. Central / 9 p.m. Eastern

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    1. Past events debrief (1 hour):

    - Rocky Mountain Rally (May 28-31):
    Attended: Karen
    Positive: well organized; good time cards - intuitive, easy to follow; good number of volunteers
    Negative: used Jemba-style notes without any recce - notes poor in a lot of areas, key instructions e.g. 4s and 5s and some other instructions missing, mis-noting degree of corners e.g. 4s instead 3s


    - STPR (Jun 5-6)
    Attended: Kim
    Positive: last 2 years have run interesting turn-around stage on Waste Mgmt property; good roads; interesting trivia: the dump is supposedly full of World Trade Center debris; organization better than normal; ran close to scheduled time, 1/2 hour behind schedule on average; varying terrain - terminal velocity at some points, to tight rallycrossing thru a Xmas tree farm at others, wet clay at certain hairpin points, some rock outcroppings which resulted in suspension work at service; good notes + 1 pass recce; same stages as last year; VIPs had own spectator points (buses, lunch, sodas) to help avoid problems with spectator parking - $75 per ticket, most felt it was a good deal; spectator issues were under control
    Negative: very hot; black flies were bad; little information regarding availability of roads for next year's event, forestry people are at mercy of budget granted by state legislature - means organizers may need to remain flexible and/or creative w.r.t. roads used


    - Black Bear Rally (Jun 13)
    Attended: None


    - Nemadji Trails II (Jun 13)
    Attended: Greg
    Positive: fun event; well organized; only route book w/ tulips, though route book was good e.g well-noted washouts
    Negative: small event - 12 entries (though only 1 DNF); only route book w/ tulips; turn-around stage disliked by some competitors; 1st stage dusty, then rain started, not ideal for gravel tires


    - Rallye de Saguenay (Jun 20):
    Attended: None


    - Rallye Baie-des-Chaleurs (Jun 25-27)
    Attended: Jimmy, Karen
    Positive: 2-pass recce from scratch with no stage notes; great event; very well organized; some new sections added to old stages; town excited, lots of spectators, bleachers & music set up for spectators, lots of drinking going on but well marshalled & spectators were mostly well behaved (though there was one incident where one car was catching another so the 2 cars were only 15-20 seconds apart & unsuspecting spectators decided to cross leading to a somewhat close call); on the whole, spectators seem to be more informed & better behaved than down in the U.S.; had announcements as competitors came through; good radio communication to assist spectator marshals; good infrastructure for special "jump" stage
    Negative: very dusty - top five cars got three minute window, everyone else got two minutes; can be difficult to figure everything out since not all instructions/notes etc. in English; some sort of timing card issue at parc expose on Sat a.m., though organizers were quick to rectify; Canada does not use consistent timecards across the board; final impound for inspection afterwards = quasi parc ferme, some competitors were almost penalized for a tech violation for moving car for photo during parc ferme


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    2. Upcoming events (10 mins):

    - Idaho Rally (Jul 9-11):
    Max Attack event!!; organizer supplied Jemba-style notes written by Gibeaults, checked by Chrissie; plus will allow 2-pass recce; will be stage notes not pace notes. will be interesting to see whether teams decide to write notes starting from scratch vs. starting from organizer supplied stage notes.

    - NEFR (Jul 17-18):
    Max Attack event!!; Kim planning to run, Slocum may be looking for a seat

    - Nemadji Trails III (Jul 25):
    Greg planning to run as shakedown for Ojibwe


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    3. Novice co-driver Q&A session (10 mins):

    Jared: 2nd event, 1st R-A event, asked for general advice:
    various suggestions given for co-drivers/drivers relatively new to notes e.g. importance of immediately notifying driver when lost, and tips on how to get back on track; pre-agreed terminology for fine tuning timing of delivery e.g. hold/next; most novice drivers not experienced enough to accurately judge turns, so may be best to start from org supplied notes & just use those unmodified until later when more experienced


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    4. Allowable changes to route books and stage notes (10 mins):

    Old RA rule - you must start with clean notes at beginning of rally, notes mark ups are not allowed. New RA rule (Section 7.2.E Marking Allowances): "Drivers and co-drivers may mark their Stage Notes books with comments from a previous running (or runnings) of a stage during the same event, or from approved reconnaissance". What is the definition of "approved recce"? What constitutes "marking"? What about removing short distances e.g. 30 and below? What about transferring short distance instructions from next page onto previous page? Rule needs clarification. NASA appears not to have any regulations w.r.t restrictions on marking up notes.


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    5. Any other topics (10 mins):

    A) Scoring and timing is different based on location and series. Varying score cards can be a big challenge for novices. Canada & some NASA events use modified FIA timing - process is the same/similar, but layout of the time cards is different.

    B) New rules for emergency situations in CARS (no force majeure). Rule was handed out as bulletin at Rocky Mountain and Baie-des-Chaleurs but is not on CARS web site. Nothing presented at Perce Neige.

    Force majeure scenario at STPR: Car was upside down blocking 3/4 of road, several cars behind were delayed by up to 14 mins since unable to pass = force majeure scenario. Later the car blocking the road slipped further down the hill into creek, at which point the red cross thrown per the rules. So, technically the cars that arrived before the red cross was thrown, and were unable to pass would have been given their actual stage time per force majeure rules. And cars that arrived after red cross was thrown would have been given a representative stage time, per emergency situation rules. Later, in the interest of being fair, an exemption was made, and times were corrected for those cars which arrived before the red cross was thrown and were unable to pass, such that their times were the same as those for cars who arrived after the red cross was thrown.

    Sanctioning bodies may need to clarify / revisit what to do in force majeure situations, and how the timing is calculated. Similar to CARS who is aiming for a kinder gentler system in terms of force majeure situations, it may be interesting to look at doing same for NASA & R-A. Suggest scanning & presenting the CARS force majeure rules for discussion. Topic is not under discussion at R-A at this time.

    C) At events where stage notes are supplied, and 2-pass recce is allowed, is it better to start with the stage notes as a starting point, or is it better to start from scratch? Varying opinions, depending on individual preference and experience. Also, may depend to some extent on quality of stage notes as starting point.


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    6. Date for next conference call:
    28 July 2009 (plan to held regularly on 4th Tues of every month), same time, same call-in details


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    Request: Please be considerate i.e. NO calls from noisy places e.g. bars, sports venues etc. as it ruins the call quality for everyone else.

    If you can't make it, you can always read the meeting minutes when posted after the call. And if you have questions, feel free to submit them ahead of time, and you can read the responses in the meeting minutes too. Also, please switch fax machines on shared / party lines off.

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  3. #2

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    Quote Originally Posted by Audi UrQ View Post
    1. Past events debrief (1 hour):

    - Rocky Mountain Rally (May 28-31):
    Attended: Karen
    Positive: well organized; good time cards - intuitive, easy to follow; good number of volunteers
    Negative: used Jemba-style notes without any recce - notes poor in a lot of areas, key instructions e.g. 4s and 5s and some other instructions missing, mis-noting degree of corners e.g. 4s instead 3s
    So did Rocky not have Jemba notes this year? 2009 supps said they were having Jemba notes. If so, hard to believe there would be any issues since Jemba ha been preparing the notes for Rocky since 2003 and Rocky has been using the same set of roads since then with the addition of Powderface several years ago so have been rechecked many times over and worked for me last year. I've run on them and never had noted missing instructions and corners are measured w/ accellerometer are what they are.

    Anyone else have issues this year?
    Dave Shindle/Navitron 2000

  4. #3
    into right 2 tightens
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    Really interesting reading.

    I searched the archives for notes from calls 1-5, but did not see any threads, can someone suggest a search that will do better than "co driver conference call"

    Thanks,
    Mike

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  6. #4
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    Hi Mike,

    We have only started formalizing the process recently e.g. agenda published beforehand etc. While there have been announcement threads for the first five co-driver conference calls, and some of us have notes made during some of the earlier meetings, this is the first time we have actually published meeting minutes. We, or at least I, will be attempting to do so for all co-driver conference calls going forward.

    P.S. Here is a brief synopsis i.e. not full meting minutes I published of topics other than past and upcoming rallies discussed during Co-Driver Conference Call IV:
    https://www.specialstage.com/forums/s...98&postcount=5

    - Piers.

  7. #5
    Dramamine is for DramaQueens Morison's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lancia037Rally View Post
    So did Rocky not have Jemba notes this year?
    Rocky had Jemba this year and they were brutal.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lancia037Rally View Post
    Anyone else have issues this year?
    The stewards mentioned that there was an overwhelming number of comments about the note quality. Arne didn't come out this year, don't know if that would be a factor or not.

    Many of the comments I would put down to people who normally run their own notes not liking the language and phrasing of the Jemba notes, but there were instances what I would consider missing corners and some inconsistencies with how things were called.
    I haven't run the event since 2006 and I don't remember having issues that year ... but I haven't had the time to compare this year's notes for differences from previous years.
    Keith Morison
    Morison Communications

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    Rally, Win, Drink Beer Jard's Avatar
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    Thanks again for holding these. It was interesting to listen in on all the discussion.

    ~Jared

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    Quote Originally Posted by Audi UrQ View Post
    Hi Mike,

    We have only started formalizing the process recently e.g. agenda published beforehand etc. While there have been announcement threads for the first five co-driver conference calls, and some of us have notes made during some of the earlier meetings, this is the first time we have actually published meeting minutes. We, or at least I, will be attempting to do so for all co-driver conference calls going forward.

    P.S. Here is a brief synopsis i.e. not full meting minutes I published of topics other than past and upcoming rallies discussed during Co-Driver Conference Call IV:
    https://www.specialstage.com/forums/s...98&postcount=5

    - Piers.

    Thanks - I am not a co-driver, or even a frequent driver, but I really like the content of the information shared, seems level headed, informative and can be used as a valuable information gathering and evaluative tool.

    Great stuff, thanks for sharing and the background work that goes into the calls.

    Best Regards,
    Mike

  10. #8
    Left seat and not British! Kim 100AW's Avatar
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    Default If you're even REMOTELY interested in Co-Driving....

    FYI, we had 29 unique telephone numbers logged on the call....a record. Perhaps we're picking up momentum!

    Thanks...and continue to pass the word...next call scheduled for July 28....put it in your Blackberry/iPhone/Pre. Show up. Lurk. Jump in....there are no dumb questions. I've been doing this for almost 40 years and learn something useful every call.
    Kim DeMotte
    Official Very Experienced Fart

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