Special Stage Forums banner

Do we really close stage roads?

16K views 78 replies 33 participants last post by  PeterSteinberg 
#1 · (Edited)
The first post in the new forum.

The title says it all. Are our stages really closed to non-rally traffic?

I have recently retired as a Steward, since I do not want to be a participant in the event where we end up killing someone.

Almost every event that I have attended in the past five years, there has been some incident with non-rally traffic on stages. Some very serious. In fact, several times, I have been spectating (at official and unofficial locations) and had I not been there, there would have been civilian vehicles accessing stages.

What do people think about this situtation? Is it lack of manpower, lack of marshal training, lack of authority to stop civilians, lack of education of locals, etc.?

I am particularly concerned about roads, trails, etc. being closed with only yellow tape and not physically blocked. Access by snowmobiles, ATVs, dirt bikes and mountain bikes are also issues that have not been properly dealt with.

If I was first car on the road these days, I would have concerns. On the other hand, many of the incidents that I have seen, or know about, have occured in the middle of the pack.

Finally, we need very specific rules in the rule book about how competitors and marshals are supposed to deal with such indicents when they occur.

Doug Woods
 
See less See more
#2 ·
Great first topic Doug.
I think the lack of marshalls in N.A. events and the lack of knowledge from local resident that an event is actually happening in their area could be some of the factors that may have contributed to some "civilian stage intrusions" in the past few years.
In the Italian Championship events (example) as well as Club events they have a rule where there needs to be a marshall every 1 km of stage and law enforcement officers present at any major spectator spot or junctions in a stage. It's mandated by National Motorsports Federation or the stages get cancelled.
Obviously they are dealing with thousands more people per event we deal in N.A.
In Europe civilian stage intrusions are quite rare, alltho things like what happen to David in the BRC last year (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4mIqvfnWY8I) can happen.
Lack of marshall training could be another factor, many times we find ourselves first on the road and notice a communication issue among control workers [example, the chief of the control (main radio communication with organizer and course opener cars) states the stage is not hot and the marshall at the stage start is about to set you off on the stage]
To answer the question, I don't think the roads can ever be considered 100% "closed" and everything can be expected to happen. Naturally it's not something that you think or worry about while you are flying, full concentration on a stage and considering the safety devices of a rally car and the fact that the driver and codriver are strapped with helmets, Hans and all, the worse case scenario would unfortunately, most likely, hurt the civilian traffic involved in an accident on stage, more than the competing crew.
Possible solutions?
I think that with the (unfortunate) lack or marshalls in N.A. forests, the first thing should be to mandate stages to be no longer than let's say 10 miles.
Sucks for sure..as the endurance aspect of competing in a 20/22 miles stage would disappear, but if a stage that long can't be controlled, or if safety can't be guaranteed to a certain level, then it's a better proposition that risking a collision between civilian and rally car and all the hundreds of consequences the sport would suffer.
I think Rally New York (Spring) last year did a good job as, yes, it did have many sprint stages (3 to 7 miles in lenght) but also offered 27 stages to the competitors and at the end the lenght of the event was equal to a normal national (and the fun factor equal to an event with long 20/22 miles stages)
It's a possible solution, any other ideas?



The first post in the new forum.

The title says it all. Are our stages really closed to non-rally traffic?

I have recently retired as a Steward, since I do not want to be a participant in the event where we end up killing someone.

Almost every event that I have attended in the past five years, there has been some incident with non-rally traffic on stages. Some very serious. In fact, several times, I have been spectating (at unofficial locations) and had I not been there, there would have been civilian vehicles accessing stages.

What do people think about this situtation? Is it lack of manpower, lack of marshal training, lack of authority to stop civilians, lack of education of locals, etc.?

If I was first car on the road these days, I would have concerns. On the other hand, many of the incidents that I have seen, or know about, have occured in the middle of the pack.

Finally, we need very specific rules in the rule book about how competitors and marshals are supposed to deal with such indicents when they occur.

Doug Woods
 
#3 ·
I am particularly concerned about roads, trails, etc. being closed with only yellow tape and not physically blocked. Access by snowmobiles, ATVs, dirt bikes and mountain bikes are also issues that have not been properly dealt with.
I wholly agree.
WE have stopped using roads that had a lot of mountain bike trails many years ago and as an organizer I would need to have a very clear understanding of where a trail went and how it was accessed before I would be comfortable leaving just banner tape across it. (at this point the tape is more to indicate to course cars that someone has ENTERED the trail not come out from it. That's why I don't allow used banner tape at events I organize, if the banner tape is tied that indicates it has been broken and re-tied. Not fool proof but an indication.)
If I was first car on the road these days, I would have concerns. On the other hand, many of the incidents that I have seen, or know about, have occurred in the middle of the pack.
As you say, Doug, this isn't a first car on the road issue. That said, being a regular first car in the regionals here, I can't imagine starting a stage if I had even a hint that the organizer wasn't confident that they took all reasonable measures to ensure stage security.
Finally, we need very specific rules in the rule book about how competitors and marshals are supposed to deal with such indicents when they occur.
Absolutely. As a former steward and competitor who is well respected in the community, it would be great if you could help draft new rules or rule changes to help bring the changes needed.
The rally community is a community of, largely, volunteers. If people want to see changes, then please be ready and prepared to help bring those changes from ideas to actions.
 
#4 ·
Where does the non-rally traffic come from in most cases? I've personally never had one happen at a point where I was working. Do they drive through banner tape and past marshals? Are they coming from driveways from houses on stage? The first step in fixing something is identifying the cause.

When it comes to trails...yes, it's an issue, though in my opinion not as big an issue as non rally traffic on stage. If an atv or mountain bike comes to a stage, they generally are crossing it right? So they're only on the stage for a few seconds. Granted, an incident between a rally car and an atv would be tragic but the chances of it are greatly reduced.
 
#5 ·
A hypothetical case study re closing stages

First let me thank Alex for suggesting this forum and the people at Special Stage for addressing the suggestion so promptly. Also thanks to Doug for this specific thread. Since he has opened the topic, no doubt after considerable thought, to advance an academic discussion on reducing risks, I will present a case study for your consideration.

I have lost some sleep over this thread's topic and thinking about the risks that we take driving down stages - blame it on old age, stupidity, slowness, whatever - nevertheless I have worried.

My case study starts out with a car running near the back of the rally experiencing a flat tire near the end of a long transit. As there is little or no shoulder on the road, the driver pulls off into an adjacent parking lot to change the tire. Several other cars and the course closing car, which is right behind the last car, pass during the five minutes it takes to change the tire.

The car with the flat arrives five minutes late at the next stage start control - which is only several miles after where the flat was changed. The crew encounters traffic driving out from the end of the stage on the last section of the road prior to the stage start. They find that the control and the stage have been closed and the course closing car with the involvement of the stage captain and rally control, has been dispatched through the stage. The stage captain and rally control attempt to see if they can time bar the car in question but it has only used 5 minutes of lateness (that resulting from the time lost to the flat). Thus it is eligible and entitled to run the stage. The stage is to be run again that evening so the stage marshals are still in place - although they too have seen the closing car come through and the course opening car has not reopened the stage for the second running. After considerable delay the rally car is instructed to start the stage.

Before I present the questions for this case study, let me address the question in a previous post - where does non rally traffic come from? Over the years that I have competed, I have seen at national events, vested photographers driving out of live stages against the stage traffic, people (workers, photographers, spectators) walking out of live stages (regardless of whether they were supposed to have been there or not), people living on a stage road driving out, ATVs and snowmobiles proceeding along stages. I am sure that others may confirm their own experiences but as Doug has suggested, it can happen.

Back to my case study:

Required part one:

- if you were the driver in the rally car, do you start the stage?
- what alternatives, if any do you have?

Required part two:

- assuming that you believe that there was increased risk in this case, what suggestions would you make to officials towards preventing such a problem in the future?
 
#6 ·
Required part one:
- if you were the driver in the rally car, do you start the stage?
Absolutely not. The road has been re-opened and if you are running behind closing you are not insured.
- what alternatives, if any do you have?
Since the stage is being repeated, I would demand that we be given our time on the second pass in lieu of the missing time, adjusted to account for stage condition differences using the difference is stage times of nearby competitors as a source for the factor. If the stage isn't repeated I would pick a couple of reference competitors and use their times to create a reasonable guess.

- assuming that you believe that there was increased risk in this case, what suggestions would you make to officials towards preventing such a problem in the future?/QUOTE]
Pay closer attention to the tracking of the cars in your competition. They should have known where you were and what you were doing.
 
#7 ·
On the issue of trails crossing the roads. We had an issue at one of our events a couple years ago. This was on a rally stage which has been used for many years, and was considered VERY well closed off and controlled.
Somehow a civillian vehicle appeared mid-stage. Luckily this happened in between runnings of the stage. It turned out that a trail that used to be a dead-end, had recently been extended out to the main highway. Because it was thought to be a dead-end, and while trying to maximise the use of a limited number of marshals, there was no marshal placed at that trail.
Lesson learned. Even on a well known road, with maps of all the trails that meet it, it's important to keep all that information fully up to date.
 
#8 ·
Where does non-rally traffic come from when a stage is hot?

Many, many places. Here are some that I have had to personally deal with in the past five years:

1) People who live on the road driving out of their driveway through yellow tape and onto the stage.

2) Accredited photographers driving onto the stage after the fast cars have gone by.

3) Spectators driving onto the stage (presumably to get to the next stage in time to see those same fast cars).

4) Rally workers driving against stage traffic.

5) Logging trucks trying to access the stage with a vehicle much bigger than the one being used to block the road.

6) Local resident driving through marshals at a major intersection at a spectator location (I had to jump in front of her car as she was about to drive onto the stage).

7) Snowmobilers and ATVs trying to access the stage from "their" trails (my experience is that these people are usually well lubricated).

8) Spectators placing large boulders just over the crest where cars will land (I know, not a traffic situation, but still something that I had to deal with).

I am sure that there are many more. I know that I have had to talk a lot of locals into doing some "quality spectating" in order for the stage to even be run or to continue running.

Which brings up another related topic. Too many times, the most experienced workers are assigned to operate the start and finish controls on a stage, while inexperienced (some of them out there for the first time) people are assigned to work as safety marshals in the stage.

I think this is backwards. We can always sort out a timing issue after the rally, if it was a result of an inexperienced worker. However, we cannot bring someone back to life who was killed due to someone's inexperience.

Doug Woods
 
#9 ·
Where does non-rally traffic come from when a stage is hot?

Many, many places. Here are some that I have had to personally deal with in the past five years:

1) People who live on the road driving out of their driveway through yellow tape and onto the stage.

2) Accredited photographers driving onto the stage after the fast cars have gone by.

3) Spectators driving onto the stage (presumably to get to the next stage in time to see those same fast cars).

4) Rally workers driving against stage traffic.

5) Logging trucks trying to access the stage with a vehicle much bigger than the one being used to block the road.

6) Local resident driving through marshals at a major intersection at a spectator location (I had to jump in front of her car as she was about to drive onto the stage).

7) Snowmobilers and ATVs trying to access the stage from "their" trails (my experience is that these people are usually well lubricated).

8) Spectators placing large boulders just over the crest where cars will land (I know, not a traffic situation, but still something that I had to deal with).

I am sure that there are many more. I know that I have had to talk a lot of locals into doing some "quality spectating" in order for the stage to even be run or to continue running.

Which brings up another related topic. Too many times, the most experienced workers are assigned to operate the start and finish controls on a stage, while inexperienced (some of them out there for the first time) people are assigned to work as safety marshals in the stage.
Doug Woods
I think we have to concentrate first on those items we have the most control over, items # 2 and # 4 (and maybe #3). These are people who sometimes think they know what they're doing and can get away with it.

I think this is backwards. We can always sort out a timing issue after the rally, if it was a result of an inexperienced worker. However, we cannot bring someone back to life who was killed due to someone's inexperience.

Doug Woods
Now there's an interesting idea!
I also like the idea of a marshall every 1 km as Alex stated. But I don't see what difference shortening the stage length makes.
 
#10 · (Edited)
The first post in the new forum.

The title says it all. Are our stages really closed to non-rally traffic?

I have recently retired as a Steward, since I do not want to be a participant in the event where we end up killing someone.

.....

Doug Woods

THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A CLOSED STAGE other than those in stadium racing!

I have many less stage miles than you, Doug, but I have met on-coming non-rally traffic multiple times in multiple states while I was rallying on hot stages.

When I was younger (70's) I drove as if the stages were closed, and was about as fast as Bruno. In my more recent outings I drove much slower for many reasons including that what is over that hill or around that curve is totally unknown regardless of the tree-lines, route book, or anything else.

More spectator deaths or deaths of non-rally related "civilians" is only a matter of time.
 
#12 · (Edited)
Safety Discussion -- from the front lines...

First, THANK YOU for this thread --admin: stickey material?

I've been in the stage rally pack ('70s); on the ground ('80s-'90s); and back in- and in-front-of the pack since 2000.

--''there are no closed roads"
sadly true... this last weekend I caught up with a media crew on stage, then met another vehicle counter course, they stopped conferred and both proceded counter course -- I could only follow, they wouldn't stop. When they found their "good spot" they pulled into a sideroad. I instructed them not to move and got ID. Minutes later Car 0 found them in the middle of the stage road setting up cameras and backdrops. Media on foot is a bit less dangerous, but tend to leave early after the fast cars. Some better sanction (mabe not allowed next event?) for ignoring safety.

''would you start the stage?"
absolutely not! The late arriving car is just another civilian at that point -- Stage Safety is compromised. Sweep should not have been sent until the car's whereabouts was determined. 'Where is Car#xx?'
This happened twice last weekend (missing cars, not premature sweep). One car retired on transit, returned to Service, but wasn't accounted for at Stage Start. The turnaround stage could not go cold until he was found, and so the inbound start could not go hot either. Later, another car, approaching MPL and at the end of the pack was effecting repairs in transit. Sweep could not be sent in, although with the long gap, spectators begain leaving the stage via the roadway. Even experienced Spectator Marshals were helpless given the volume and state of "lubrication" as Doug points out.
Competitor should protest his exclusion. Inquiry/protest any timing issues. Probably request average of before and after stages. But do not start on a cold stage!

"no used banner tape"
I like it... but last weekend we ran out of on-board banner and resorted to used tape.
Our Course Opening team has developed an "olde tyme tracker" sense about whether banner has been driven through or just blown down. If we can't determine, Net Control and the Chairman will be notified and a Marshal requsted. Sometimes Course Cars are required/re-assigned as Road Blocks.

"more police..."
I've had several cases where RCMP or a County Sheriff would have been comforting. DooWops has County Sheriffs, WildWest has County Sheriffs, I'd really like to see an RCMP at AMR and Helmer...
a drunk and pi**ed driver in a white pikup truck tried to get around a Marshal last weekend. Net Control and the Stage Crew were notified with a description. The "over lubricated fan" was heard trying to go overland to get to a good spot to watch his "hero" -- hopefully he's still out there...
Perhaps some sanction against the rally car associated with the fan (driving around or at Spectator) could be promoted similar to penalties for Service Crews being assessed to the Rally Car?

"a Marshal every 1km..."
wouldn't that be great! As more HAMs are attracted to rally, more Marshal or Road Closure points can have communication with Net Control. As it stands this is a volunteer pool with limited resources. Maybe a free tee shirt is enough to get some newbies hooked?

OK off my soapbox for now,
let's keep this going to develop/improve this protocol

--Ron see ya on the road...
K7RDS
 
#15 · (Edited)
Cars getting on stage....would stringing cables with padlocks on them across roads and driveways help? What kind of cost would this be? Would the rally have the authority to do so?

Edit: Same question for known ATV trails...can you string something across that's a bit harder to break then banner tape?

Photogs driving on stage... Personally I don't like to see photogs on stage with access to a car. If they want to get dropped off before the stage and picked up after fine...but I don't trust them with a car during a hot stage personally.

Marshals driving on stage...this is a communication issue, pure and simple. And I don't mean necessarily communication during the stage. People need to know the plan beforehand. 2 or 3 years ago at MFR we were stage marshals and our pre-stage briefing consisted of the stage captain yelling at a crowd "is everyone here?....I'm in the XXXX color car (I don't remember the color)....follow me" Then when we got to the stage someone pointed at a driveway and said "you go there" and then left us there. Didn't tell us what the schedule, when the road was closed or would be opened again, when were allowed to leave, where to go when the stage is over or if we were covering another stage...nothing. That's unacceptable. Luckily we were fairly experienced and knew enough to stay put and pay attention to the course cars but somebody at their first rally may not have known that. I believe this was an in and out stage (my memory is a bit foggy) and a stage marshal who didn't know that or wasn't paying attention may have thought it was over and tried to drive out after the first run through.
 
#20 ·
From my completely detached perspective, it sounds like you have a legitimate gripe about the earlier incident, and it's unfortunate that it occurred, more so because it seems to have soured your general outlook on the sport. However, your explanation about the PFR incident is unsettling. Everybody wants TV coverage, but everybody needs rallies that are SAFE and preferably on time. One of those items had to give, and frankly, it wasn't your decision to make.

--
John
 
#21 ·
Your right, it wasn't our decision to make. And we did not make it. Did you miss the part that we were moving on an open road? Or the part about how we got off the road as quickly as possible in a safe spot? Or the part how car 00 had no issues with where we were putting up our signs?

As a volunteer, I expect to be spoken politely. That is simply a common courtesy, something that seemed to be in short supply with the course opening crews. Crews who are indeed accomplished crews who for the most part, did their job exceptionally well.

That's it, no more comments from me. Have your fun.
 
#23 ·
Not entirely true,
The custom in Canada is that access to the road is stopped after 00, not 000 has passed. From an insurance standpoint the road closure starts at the bumper of car 0. (IE if car 0 has an accident, normal road insurance applies - don't ask me how I know this.)

Particularly on a stage like Helmer, when a second run is happening and you have control of both ends, it is easy to fall into the trap of believing that the road has never been opened and is effectively secure.

In this case they were also dealing with a rogue and lubricated spectator/local who was trying to breach the stage elsewhere.

Does this excuse treating anyone poorly? no.

I don't pretend to speak for Ron or Lee but I can only assume that they were unaware of your planned movements.
 
#26 ·
Sorry Alex,
I agree that all that can be done, should be done, but Rally, in the woods, over any distance that marshals can not keep visual contact with each other and have the immediate ability to stop competition is inherently risky.
So I guess I'm with Jens on this one. If you want to make this sport like circuit racing, you may as well just move to circuit racing.
The Mille Miglia got too dangerous, Watkins and Elkart too.
Spa is always in doubt still.
I watched your Maine video and the car gets to 80MPH in an instant.
The cars have gotten back, and past, GpB speeds and it is time to throttle back the cars.
 
#35 ·
Maybe we should go back to starting events at 6pm and run to 7am. I don't see a ton of TV coverage except you tube,or big buck sponsors, so there's no need to worry about sunlight for filming. Not alot of mountian bikers out in the woods at 2am to worry about, I'm guessing. All the bright lights on the cars "might" clue in the few people(Deer Jackers, Those with an intrest in a local still) out at 3am in the middle of nowhere to pay attention and/or stay away since their activities might not be 100% legal.

My 2 cents.

Sean Gallagher
 
#36 ·
Man there's something to this! I'd be for all-nighters for sure! Nearly no dirt bikers (I am one, btw), less ATVers, no mountain bikers, no hikers, no horseback riders...night rallying is definitely safer rallying from a potential trail usage conflict perspective.

The only exception to the rule is snowmobilers. At night they just get faster and drunker.
 
#39 ·
I love night stages, but they create a bunch of additional complications when things go wrong.

When Dennis Martin and I had our big roll at LSPR '04, after we got out of the car, we had no idea where the car was in relation to the stage road or from which direction rally cars would be coming from. Dennis ran the wrong direction. I waited until I saw the lights of the next car, but, by then, it was too late to get far enough up the road to warn them and they ended up stuffing their car into a tree. A little daylight would have improved that situation greatly.
 
#47 ·
Personally I like night stages.

Teresa and I actually met oncoming traffic once on a stage in late 2002. Lucky for us it was night and we saw them coming.

Looking at stage times from Mt. Hood Rally 2008 all teams went slower on the third and final running of the stages. That third run was at night. I'll also note that the road surface did not deteriorate. Now, we were not a lot slower but we were slower and slower is safer from a F=MA perspective.

Best regards,

Charles Buren
 
#52 ·
So let's list pros and cons of night stages vs. day stages.

Night stages--pros:

-Less hiker conflicts (folks don't hike or mt. bike or even horseback ride at night...much)
-Less ORV conflicts (folks don't ride dirt bikes and or ATV's much at night compared to day)
-Less road traffic conflicts (less motorists needing to get to town for milk. Less motorists out blueberry picking.)
-More challenging timeline for teams. (Unless you're a modern rallywuss.)
-Local based stage crews could work on Friday and still get to the stages in time for their stages.
-Oncoming traffic visibility (you can see oncoming lights thru the woods long before you see a vehicle)

Cons:

-Sux for TV (which doesn't matter when you don't have TV)
-Harder to manage crowd control/spectator areas (but you will probably have less speccies in the first place...which American Rallying has STILL not decided whether is good or bad.)
-More challenging to workers (?)
-Extrication of vehicles can be more challenging.
-Bars are closed at 7am when the rally finishes.

Pro or con? Less spectators. (that's a subject that's been rehashed in a thousand threads already)


Help me out here. Add your thoughts.
 
#53 ·
I see no cons except the Bar deal.
Tail Gate Party at the finish? It's always noon somewhere!
Less spectators = pro. Only the true hard core rally fan will endure the wee hours to see a streak of HID's and glow of rotors at 3am. Less drunk *******s.
I've worked a ton of rallys in the...
1-rain
2-cold
3-snow
And guess what? I dried out and warmed up when I was done with my job on the stage or at the control I worked. And still worked other events in the...
1- 100 degree heat
2- dust
3- mosiquitoes ( or however you spell them).

Modern Rallywuss. I like that Sir Lurch!

Sean Gallagher
 
#55 ·
Cons-if you're using roads that are inhabited....yes people are not going to be out getting milk and whatnot, but somehow I don't think they'll like the idea of rally cars roaring by their house at 3am. I think noise complaints would occur, not just on stage but on transits too probably. Let's face it, the cars aren't quiet.

Pros-if you can find roads that aren't inhabited, there's a very good chance that noone will even know you were there thus minimizing the chances of any complaints from locals. Noise related or otherwise.

Possibility...could this open us up to do recce and not have to take extra days off of work?
 
#56 · (Edited)
Cons-if you're using roads that are inhabited....yes people are not going to be out getting milk and whatnot, but somehow I don't think they'll like the idea of rally cars roaring by their house at 3am. I think noise complaints would occur, not just on stage but on transits too probably. Let's face it, the cars aren't quiet.
New rule for quieter cars could take care of that?

Con - less workers will want to stay out all night
Con - less patronage of local businesses, for example at services located in towns. They would likely have to be moved because businesses would be closed and people sleeping. Which may lower community acceptance.

Though I'm all for 7pm-7am rallying, it does have its own unique set of logistics challenges to overcome.
 
#59 ·
The topic at hand is one of the MANY reasons I stopped organizing and eventually competing. I felt so much pressure taken off after the event was done knowing that there were no incidents. It's only a matter of time that something serious will happen as much as people try to avoid it. I did not want to be part of it when it did or when it does.
 
#62 ·
From Car #0 @ PFR

I echo Ron's comments about the Media incident on Thynne #2 @ PFR. Car #00 contacted net control, informed them of the media situation, location and instructions. Per the instruction of Net Control (the event organizer in this case), Car #0 (me) was dispatched to Pace the stage as normal. When I arrived at the media location, I was shocked to find two people walking in the stage road. They informed me that they had to set up signs before they could shoot. I called into net control for instructions and was asked to insist that the media hurry up and I was asked to wait until I felt they were safe. I informed the media crew that they were holding up the start of the stage and they were to expedite their set-up work.

They continued to set-up signs at a relaxed pace, no hustle. When they were complete with signage and only had camera locations to set, I departed and completed the stage. Although I don't really like it, I have been asked to allow media some leeway regarding camera locations.

I was informed by the crew that they were listening into net control via radio. My question is why did they not contact net control for permission and request a delay for their movement?

I informed one of the Event Stewards and the National Manager of the incident on Thynne 2. They both indicated that they would speak to the media team.

Fast forward to AMR Stage about two hours later. The "Brand Manager" contacted Net Control and asked if media could enter the stage backwards to set up. Net control referred them to Car #0 (me) for permission as I was on seen and Car #000 & 00 had completed their runs. I informed them how much time they had to conduct they set up activities (about 8 minutes I believe). They agreed and then contacted me via net control when they were done. AMR is a very short stage that has well controlled access. This worked out great and I complement the Brand Manager for his actions.

BTW, I think this is a great discussion. I want the same thing as everybody here. So, in order to offer a solution to this particular media movement issue, I would like to suggest that the media meet with the event organizer and the Pace Team before the event and inform them of their plans and movement schedule. I know you have a plan, so why not share it. In this case, an acceptable delay could have been reviewed and probably approved without much discussion or heart burn. My second recommendation is to get your Ham license and learn to use the radio network. Monitoring just does not work all the time. There must be two-way communication. PFR has an excellent radio network (thanks Eric & Lynn). Let's use it to our safe advantage.

I, too, appreciate the national film crews and their contribution to the sport. Since they are paid professionals, I look to them to act like paid professionals. I am a volunteer event worker just like all the others, yet I have an elevated responsibility as the last eyes on the course. The support of the event organizers (Thanks Paul, Thanks Kieth) is key. Their support and faith in my calls is key as well.

Please consider my suggestions.

Lee Sorenson
Team Fugawi?
 
#63 ·
I, too, appreciate the national film crews and their contribution to the sport. Since they are paid professionals...
Just as a point of interest - the camera operators are paid but they have volunteers, like Dan, working with them to help make sign placement easier and faster. Next year's plans involve a change to the signage that will hopefully make this even easier to implement.
 
#65 ·
How did this go from "let's figure out why we have incursions on a hot stage so we can make our roads safer"....to "let's hash out a specific incident but not talk about improving the situation"?

So...how do we make the roads safer? Rules, procedures, or otherwise?
 
#67 ·
back on point...

How did this go from "let's figure out why we have incursions on a hot stage so we can make our roads safer"....to "let's hash out a specific incident but not talk about improving the situation"?
So...how do we make the roads safer? Rules, procedures, or otherwise?
I quite agree. The PFR "media incident" was a non-event. It was not a hot stage at that point. My original post only mentioned the "vehicle on stage" as a portion of several examples.

To get back on point, communication would be a key element. From somewhere very early in the thread, the "Marshal every 100 meters" aspect can be somewhat eased with better communication between those who are on stage. Flying Finish to STOP, and ATC to START are typically FRS or GMRS radio and not tied directly to the Net. Recruiting more Road Marshals as licensed Amatuer Radio Operators (HAMs) will be a good start to keeping a taught communications link throughout the stage. At the very least this can provide for an alert that some incursion has happened, and that the stage be halted for safety, until the intruder is located or cleared.

While this doesn't physically prevent a vehicle from getting on stage, at the very least we all know about and can act accordingly to keep the rally safe.

Okay, there is one suggestion. Let's continue with some more.

Ron
K7RDS
 
#66 ·
I hope what I have seen meets the standard of "reasonable expectations," or however you want to put it. While there is always a need for vigilance (i.e.: always expect the unexpected), what I have done/seen done/helped out with, goes like this:

Several days before the event, notification letters are posted on a cabins, houses, and the like, and usually also on gates to privately owned camping areas.

On the day of the event, if not on the day before, the stage captain and/or part of the crew works the stage from start to finish, putting up banner at all intersections, gates, trails, and wherever paths are noted. We also double check all the RI's, especially leaving notifications on any vehicles found along the stage (these are also noted in a copy of the route book. Stage worker routes I have used have a lot of additional and useful information in them.

Several hours before the stage is to be opened, it is run through again to be sure that all the banner is in place and that the vehicles found previously are either gone, moved, or that net knows about them.

Workers are positioned at every TC. At this time not only are their vehicles (if any) checked to be sure that they are well off the stage but usually positioned to provide, if not a buffer, at least some sign that indicates even to the biggest yutz that, hey, maybe something is going on here and I have to stop and find out what or I will not be able to get by.

Workers at both the start and end of stage set up so that they can provide a buffer for vehicles coming into the area before they should be able to enter the stage.

If a stage is to be reused, either backward or just run twice in the same direction, as many people as possible, whether working, spectating, camping, etc., are notified that the stage is to be considered hot until the sweep vehicles come through, and that the sweep vehicle will be running with a flashing green light to indicate that the stage is now open again. Even after sweep reaches the end of stage, we do not allow traffic into the stage until we have cleared it with sweep and/or the net. Most workers, especially rookies have this drummed into them, and usually it is suggested that if they are at all unsure, it is best to wait until they see the stage captain and/or other experienced workers go through after the sweep vehicle to consider leaving.

This is what we do at STPR and I would imagine that there are other measures as well. It's worked pretty well but we always expect exceptions. Also it is important to note that STPR has a long history with the locals and they are pretty well versed on what goes on for the weekend and most of them know enough to ask before approaching a TC. That (having cooperation from locals who know what's what) is the biggest help of all. To that end, the press and the program give a fair amount of detail about what the rally is about and what to expect, but most importantly they provide a lot of safety information.

Maybe I could sum that last part up by saying we love the Chamber of Commerce and the local paper, and they seem to love us, too. That really helps all the way around, but it also makes life safer and easier for all concerned.
 
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top