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2008 Season Feedback

24K views 102 replies 21 participants last post by  EastSideTurku 
#1 ·
So Rally Colorado marked the end of the first year of the Colorado Rally Cup.

We certainly learned a lot. We tried a lot of things, some of them worked, some of them didn't.

We have a list of changes and tweaks for 2009 as well as some very exciting things that I am working on for you guys.

But this is a competitor focused and driven championship. We need you guys and your thoughts to make this better. Here is your chance to say whatever you want, no hard feelings feedback.

So what did you like? What didn't you like? What would you do differently? What would you like to change or add?

Not everything will be implemented but we'd like to see what you, the competitors, have to say. The flame suites are on, so have at it.
 
#4 ·
-Check the schedule again and make sure you're not backing up events per weekend.
-Coordinate the shedule around the USRC so I can play next year (tall order but worth a shot). I have a feeling I'm not the only one who is going to chase the USRC from Colorado.
-No-Frill entry for regionals only but those who want to compete for national standing should be scored with the CRC regardless of frills situation. This will allow more Cup support from teams such as the Conleys who will run National anyway and probably would like to do both. However, no random National competitors are allows to score points in the CRC against CRC drivers. However, this would make scoring difficult for the year end.
-Maybe a USRC tie-in like the CRS... Maybe.

Congrats on a good year. I think things went really well for its first year. More funding should help make it a better year. More mid-season trophies/prizes would be cool should the budget allow.
 
#6 ·
-No-Frill entry for regionals only but those who want to compete for national standing should be scored with the CRC regardless of frills situation. This will allow more Cup support from teams such as the Conleys who will run National anyway and probably would like to do both. However, no random National competitors are allows to score points in the CRC against CRC drivers. However, this would make scoring difficult for the year end.

This is how it worked this year. It seems that a lot of teams didn't realize this?
 
#7 ·
here's what I think:

- more stage rally events included - add Idaho Rally to the CRC
- don't include the pure hp hillclimbs - Monarch, GC
- OR more points for the rally stage-like hc's - Temple, Buena Vista, Grand Junction
- and/or option to drop or not attend an event.
- no back-to-back events - lots of people didn't go to the last HC because they needed the time or resources to prep for RC.
-what about an event at CORE? how about a Time Attack? cumulative of fastest time each way around... or most laps in 24 minutes.


overall, I thought it was a great series. it kept the racing interesting, it turned the CO rally scene into a viable media product that can be sponsored and used to drive business to sponsors and hopefully sponsors to teams.

it was disappointing how attendance dropped off after the first two events, but the turn out at COG was good.

good job Kevin, Erika, Steve, Brian, Grant and Mitch.

Scott
 
#9 ·
- more stage rally events included - add Idaho Rally to the CRC
If you want to run in a regional rally series, nobody's stopping you. :) Of course, if it makes sense for the organizers to progress from the CRC to a "Rocky Mountain Region Cup," then by all means. We skipped Idaho because of the conflict with PPIHC. Would it make sense to include an out of state event in the Colorado Rally Cup when 1/2 the cometitors are taking part in the oldest 'rally' event in the state?

- OR more points for the rally stage-like hc's - Temple, Buena Vista, Grand Junction
Interesting thought.

- no back-to-back events - lots of people didn't go to the last HC because they needed the time or resources to prep for RC.
Alot of people also skipped the 2nd rally-x, Gold Camp I, and Lands End too, and only 3 or 4 entries at each event could be attributed to another event going on. Something else is driving the low attendance, and its probably just lack of disposable income.

-what about an event at CORE? how about a Time Attack? cumulative of fastest time each way around... or most laps in 24 minutes.
That's a great idea! Hopefully CORE is still around next year. Could we possibly tie this event in with a rally-x so that instead of having stage rally cars come out to run a rally-x, we'd really be putting on a show for the new guys.

Dave
 
#8 ·
All in all, I thought it was a great year, though I'm sure we all wished more teams had made it out to more events (myself included). Just a few general thoughts based on what I've seen from other groups I've run with.

End of year attendance bonus: Should we keep this? If you make it to all the events, you'll be awarded with the potential to score more points, both from finishing position and individual event entry bonus points. I don't think the bonus points made a difference in drivers standings but it might have in co-drivers...but I haven't looked closely.

Missed Events: not sure how to implement this one, but some series allow you to drop a low score or missed event or two. Obviously that's a bit difficult to score when you have some events worth 3x the number of points. I'm sure the chances of having a season that doesn't have any overlap/competing dates with other events is nearly impossible though it would be nice. I thought a few poeple effectively dropped out of the series once they had to miss one event because they knew they couldn't catch back up in the points race. This might encourage those of us with scheduling conflicts to keep at it.

Getting attendance up: If one of the goals of the series is trying to promote what we do to the newer folks, attendance at the rally-x is a good way to drum up interest in a group that's already predisposed to spending money on this silly habit. Might re-evaluating the points system for three different events types potentially encourage higher attendance rates across the board? Seems to me that attedance rates at the hillclimbs declined significantly after Temple Canyon, and we had quite a high turnout at Rally Colorado. The rally-x events were mixed, with great turnout at one, and nearly nobody attending the second one.

Pikes Peak: you guys knew I'd throw this one in there. :) Its a hillclimb just like the others, but does require more time off work. Some say its just too expensive to enter, but based on info I got from someone on the coloradohillclimb forum, if we approach the organizers, there's a potential for quite a good volume entry discount, as they set a precedent with the Vintage car class. In addition, this event gets a fair bit more exposure than the other hillclimbs, making sponsor hunting easier than normal.

Dave
 
#10 ·
My thoughts:
1. I'd like to see the CRC include more stage rallies, but in Colorado. I don't think Idaho should be included in a Colorado based series. Though I do think everyone should be trying to get out to that event.

2. I'm really mixed on the hill climbs. I almost want to say score Temple Canyon, BV, and Land's End. Maybe have a point bonus for attending GC and Monarch, but at those two events, almost 100% of the time you can order the finishers in the rally class by the horsepower of their cars, which isn't exactly fair competition. I'm not a better driver than Scott, but I beat him at Gold Camp thanks to the additional power I have.

3. I like the bonus for attending all events. It was meant as a motivator, and I believe it did change a little bit of stuff in the codriver points. Though I think if we did like I mention above about GC and Monarch bonuses, I'd say eliminate the all event bonus.

4. Ignore other series schedules. Sorry, but it's the truth.

5. There was an invitation to include one of the SCCA Time Trials events into the schedule. None of their dates worked except the end of October, but we wanted Cog to be the final round so that didn't work. I personally think it's a good idea as it's a different surface and provides exposure to a different crowd of people and I'd like to hear opinions on that as well.

6. I'm all for an event at CORE if people will actually show up. I also think we should keep at least one rallycross in the schedule, but maybe consider combining a rallysprint run on the same weekend as a rallycross and just hope the wind's not blowing the wrong way. The dust clouds could potentially cause real issues.

7. DNF and DNS rules need clarified/refined for each event type. Even if I DNF'd on the first stage at Cog I'd have gotten 2nd place and the full amount of points for 2nd place.

8. A better website needs developed. It was quick, but is quite rudimentary. Not to mention I have pretty much no graphic design skills.

9. We need a winter snow rally in Leadville or somewhere else that's fairly close to the front range.
 
#14 ·
I agree with Scott. I think the option to drop one event would be sweet or a make up event. It should still work as an incentive because you can still improve if you do shitty at say... Monarch because you have no power or you're running restricted. It wouldn't make sense if one team is winning the whole damn thing because their car is stupid fast because people wouldn't have a chance anyway. However, It would make it more competative considering the chances.

Possible examples:

1. Hi! I'm Dave and I took out my tenth mortage in order to purchase my GT30 hybrid turbo which puts out 38 LBS and 360 to the Wheels. I'm winning almost every race. But damn it! The cat got out and needs to go to the vet because she cought a kitty STD. So I'll mist BV.
Hi! I'm mitch and I'm running 204 restricted because of the USRC. Damn you dave you're going down! Wait! No BV for you. Now is my chance.

Or:

2. Damn squirrels at TC! Now I have to Run a full season... but ok.
Or:

3. I could have done better (stupid Dos Gusanos). I know! BV!

Or:
**** you Dave! I'm doing BV and MP! Yeah! Well **** you Steve! I am to! Yeah!? Yeah!

I'm just rambling now. But you get my point. Shit happens and I think it adds to the "Play of the Season". It's just another element you can use to help yourself out during the season.
 
#17 ·
no power or you're running restricted.
Pull that shitty restrictor and come out and play, rules say you don't need one, so why shoot yourself in the foot? We missed you out there this year! Have Steve & Brian put together a better turbo mount so swapping the restrictor is a 10 minute job, not a 3 hour one, and have 2 ECU maps that you can change between. :) I hear anti-lag kicks ass too.

Dave
 
#15 ·
This is the first I've heard of the SCCA Time Trials thing. I think that sounds like a pretty good idea for next year if the dates work out. I can just picture driving a race track with our codrivers calling notes. We'd get some weird looks from the road racer guys.
 
#22 ·
I think idaho would be sweet. Even though its the "Colorado Rally Cup". Another Stage rally would be sweet. And Idaho is definetly sweet.

Dave, I might keep the STI as a dedicated Stage car and build the GC again for Hillclimbs only. Unless you have a problem with that? I think it's also my time to run Pikes Peak.

So the goal this year was to support our local rally in the end right? What is the goal for next year? Is it to have a strong CRC following? If this is the case then Cash incentives and other awards throughout the year is probably a good idea to sustain a consistent competition field. I do think a drop race option is in order as well. If I have some shit going down like a dead grandma or jail or somethig then I don't wan't dumb luck to put me out for the year. It would be a waste of time if I lost out in the first two events. Why would I continue (hypothetically speaking. Me or someone else thinking this way).
 
#23 ·
I think I have to agree with Dave that we should at least consider adding Pike's Peak and potentially discuss with the Pike's Peak officials about the possibilities.
It's the largest local event period. Exposure, spectators, coverage, etc. Ironically it's also the closest event for a majority of people. It'd add value and visibility to the series.

PS> Damn it Scott. Your 10:06 pm post makes me want to go home and work on the car.

PPS> Doo *** 2008 was won overall by a 1979 Volvo 242. The $65,000 WRX from the classifieds was behind it.
 
#25 ·
i don't think that there should be the option to drop an event. it leads to poaching of events (wrc in the early 90's) and it also confuses the points scoring. like if do so well that this event you will drop the other, but if you don't do so well, you won't drop the other. multiply that by all the competitors and suddenly it's a giant math problem that only grant will get.

i also don't think that idaho should be in the series. maybe eventually, but not yet.

i like the idea of a tarmac event. maybe a track rental day where it's timed. combine that with some local club and split it. half the day they get it, half the day we do. more exposure to more people and such.

the rules need to be reworked regarding dnf/dns. grant and i have talked about it. grant could have in theory entered the events, never gone, and won g5 by 8 points over conley. and the start points need reworked too since they basically do nothing. grant and i talked about that too.

another rally in co would be awesome but you have to get some sort of committee to work on it. meet on a regular basis, plan, delegate. there was some work on this once at the blue bonnet i think. maybe after india we can start work discussing it amongst ourselves and see if it is actually viable.

i like the idea of a rally sprint or something at the same time as the rallyx. ride alongs and showing off. dust is the only problem.

gc is a great learning event. it is also good for learning to commit to some corners and working on lines. it is also a power event. i wouldn't mind dropping it or something. i'll probably never do monarch so i'm definitely in favor of dropping that.

i don't think pikes peak should be included. it's like monarch, but bigger.

video of the series, even just a 2 minute recap per event and an end of year thing. dunno how, unpaid interns maybe. if i wasn't hoping to do the whole series next year i would volunteer.

more team press releases on the front page of ss after every event.

a parce expose downtown somewhere. in the parking lot across the street from petes? co-drivers have to stay sober to drive the car home/cp/salta/trailer it. one or two of these around the greater denver area?

crc co-driver school. i know mitch is working on that on awdpirates.
 
#31 ·
i don't think pikes peak should be included. it's like monarch, but bigger.
I'd be willing to bet that Monarch is much more of a HP race than PPIHC. I think average grade at Monarch is quite a bit steeper than PPIHC.

video of the series, even just a 2 minute recap per event and an end of year thing.
Excellent idea!

unpaid interns maybe.
Consider yourself nominated! I'll even foot the bill for this one. :p

Oh yeah, and if we could get some umbrella girls this year that'd be great. It gets really hot sitting there at the start line in the sun at the CHCA events.
I'm working on that, but not sure if I'll have enough to share. :D

Dave
 
#28 ·
Looking for a late winter event?

How about 100AW?

Denver to Mountain Home ID looks like just under 11 hours drive

Denver to Salem, MO is just over a 13 hour drive.....2 hour difference! Many of you will probably be invitees of the Regional Rally Championship anyway. 5 coefficents, National Regional Championship AND Colorado Cup points.

Actually, why not both? or Either?

Just promoting a great event........
 
#34 ·
Grant. You've been trying to move for like 5 years now. I'll believe it when I see it.

100AW is a good event. However, I don't like getting $100 fines (or threaten to) because I brought by trailer to service and parked it neatly in the corner while Travis, Ken and Tanner literally took up half the service area with their barriers, motorhomes, service trucks and tents. That was uncool and my only gripe about 100AW. Sorry to bring that up now but I hadn't said anything about it before. Other than that, 100AW kicks ass and I hope to be back next year.

Anywho.... If there is another rally in Colordo, I would like to do a winter rally in leadville on the lake and in the mountains. Although pending on how the CRC continues, It would most likely be in Feb or Jan which as kevin expressed earlier "Difficult as a season opener". A core based rally and surrounding areas would be rad as well. At only 45 minute transit to core from downtown; I see no reason why we couldn't have a parc expose' down town and maybe (if we're lucky) a demonstration someplace.
 
#37 ·
100aw is awesome, but not a true winter event other than it's cold. real winter with snowbanks and studded snow tires. rally america is totally supportive of it, and assuming that it would be sanctioned through them.

i don't think that it's all that difficult as a season opener, it gives you several months between rallies and enough time between the next event to get your stuff together and fixed.

i've heard there are no good roads near core.
 
#40 ·
There are no good roads near CORE.
Leadville has economy problems in the winter that would likely make the area very supportive to a winter rally. It just requires action. Until then it's just theoretical.

I think all money to competitors should be evenly distributed and/or not at all and put back into the series. I thought the $100 Cog fund worked well. In fact, I'm still living off the last $25 of it.
 
#45 ·
i would like to see the COLORADO RALLY CUP be a bit more rally.

no monarch or gold camp
add a rally sprint and Idaho with some tow money

rally cross
temple cannon
rally sprint
Idaho
buena vista
grand junction
rally Colorado


brian moody
salta motorsports
 
#54 ·
No offense to Mark or Kevin, but the organizers of the CRC really need to listen to what the competitors (re: people that paid to compete in events this year) want, not what they (the organizers) think is the best plan of action. You are speaking of the Colorado Rally Cup, not the Colorado Hill Climb Cup (ahem, CHCA).

I understand that HC's are a cheap and easy way to draw new people in and that's fine, but honestly, HC's are boring. The only exciting thing about HC's are after we are all out of the car, sitting around bs'ing and hanging out. If you want to continue as the rally championship, there should be more rallies on the calendar. Even if, for the next few years, you have to go outside the state to include 1 or two them. The event calendar only includes one real rally, how can it be called a rally cup? The HC's being timed as a stage rally does not justify anything to me, we don't go to a rally and run the same stage 5 times and that's it.

As for this talk of adding an event at a track, what? Are we now going to branch out into the realm of track racing for rally? If it's a one time demonstration, head to head super special (a la WRC) or something along those lines, ok. If it's a straight up full day track event, no matter how it's timed, it's still just a track day. If you want a tarmac event, find some good tarmac roads up in the mountains and lets setup a one day tarmac rally with 6-7 stages.

A CORE Rally Sprint, although not as exciting as a stage rally, ok. At least it somewhat resembles an actual event, better than a track day or hill climbs.

You already have quite a few CRC competitors that went to Idaho last year and more seem interested for the coming year. Why not try to do for your competitors going to Idaho what you did at Colorado this year? Work with the organizers and see what you can stir up. Jens needs the competitors, I would tend to think there's not a lot he wont do to pull some of our 30+ rally cars into his event.

Make this first year a trial run, if Idaho pulls 10 cars out of the state, think about adding it to the calendar. If only 3-4 cars go, don't. You had 5 CRC cars that did the event regardless last year and 4 of those cars went on to finish the rest of the CRC season. It can't be that much of an expensive, time consuming, money consuming, competitor spreading event. You have everyone that wants to run an actual rally sitting around all year waiting for Colorado because it's the only real rally on the schedule, why not mix something in earlier?

Add the winter CO event whenever it gets started, I've heard talks of it since I started hanging out with everyone two years ago, so I wouldn't expect a new CO event anytime too soon.

There are currently 21 car entries for the Mt. Hood Rally in the PNW. That is their 5th stage rally, and 6th event of the year up there. And they have all had more than 16 competitors. We need to work on consistent entries.
Might they be running them because they are actual rallies? What was the reason for the attendance drop of later in the year with the CRC? Were people who knew they were out of the running not going to the HC's because they wanted to run actual rallies and didn't want to bother with HC's anymore?

Make a DNF a DNF. You shouldn't get a time or points for not crossing the finish line.

If you want to run in a regional rally series, nobody's stopping you.
Just as if you want to run a HC series, nobody's stopping you. Unless they pay us, please don't include PPIHC to the schedule. I can stand 5 minutes a run on a boring HC with nothing to do but chat with Scott, but I couldn't imagine doing the same for 20 minutes a run. I can see Dave's interest as he built his car specifically for that event, but again, it's the Rally Cup, not the hill climb cup.

All involved with the CRC did a great job this past season, I have no complaints, just comments. Thanks for even considering have a co-driver championship, that was pretty sweet. As long as the mugs are trophy's I'll still keep competing, those plastic cups they put beer in at Cog are entirely too small to be useful. I might start toting that mug around to all the events, in case awards has an open bar.

Getting Red Bull involved at GJ was nice and hopefully we can expand on that. Would be nice to see the Subaru thing come together for next year....

The bonus points for all events is a good idea, even if it did screw me out of a place in the co-drivers. I would like to see more opportunities next year to display the cars and get the word out. Car shows, festivals, expo's should all be extra bonus points events if you show your car. We took Scott's car to two VW car shows this year, I'm sure the same exists for the Subaru guys.

-Adam
 
#56 ·
No offense to Mark or Kevin, but the organizers of the CRC really need to listen to what the competitors (re: people that paid to compete in events this year) want, not what they (the organizers) think is the best plan of action. You are speaking of the Colorado Rally Cup, not the Colorado Hill Climb Cup (ahem, CHCA).
Mark competed in the more events than all other AWD competitors, except Brian Short, Steve Bis, and Dave Kern. Not too mention he's not an organizer or steward, yet helped to do scoring for many events, loaned his $5000 DMS setup to a fellow competitor for events he couldn't do, filmed, serviced, and let's me use his laptop to do updates with.

CRC Site said:
The Colorado Rally Cup aims to reward drivers and codrivers for their commitment to all Colorado rally programs, present and future through awards and recognition for their efforts. We also aim to increase awareness and participation in rallying in Colorado and hope to expand on the number and scale of the events in future seasons.
I don't see how including a rally in a state that doesn't even share our border and is almost 800 miles away serves in the best interest of the series. Any 'tow' money that would be put towards that from the series would be better served in attempting to maintain Cog and/or building upon future events.
 
#59 ·
what's up with HC hatin'? we're all collectively very lucky to have the CHCA. It's not a coincidence that the CRC encompassed primarily HCs - they are local and affordable. It is for those 2 reasons that we all can race and that we can encourage more people to race. without them, there is no foundation really to a local series like the Colorado Rally Cup. boring - maybe compared to a rally (as a competitor). but what exactly is is it that you would be doing with your pretty rally cars otherwise? I think most of us fall into the same bucket: can't get the kind of time off of work necessary to run a rally series and even if we could, we couldn't afford it. To have something like that in my back yard, is f*cking sweet actually.
 
#61 ·
No HC hating per se, but it's a rally cup, we have the CHCA (which is great, again, not hating) for the HC championship. If you don't have rallies for your rally cup in the area, you need to be able to expand to other areas to add rallies. Take the CRS for instance, all their events are not run in California. The new events they are bringing to the series are built like rallies; stage miles, ATC, MTC, FTC, service, etc. Even that neat little tarmac event they were trying to run this past season was run like a rally. One day, 8 stages, 60 some stage miles, and ran like a rally, not the same stretch of road ran over and over and over and timed so each pass. If you are trying to sell the fact you are a rally series, do events that are run like rallies, not like hill climbs and track days and rally crosses.

I'm just asking that concessions attempt to be made by the CRC for events that a majority of the CRC competitors would like to attend, like Idaho. Scratch the fact I want it to be even considered an addition to the schedule, no one that did the event seems to be interested and those that did seem to think it's worth the trip to add it.

I guess it comes down to a certain part of the CRC likes the HC's for their cheap and easy setup and the other part wants to run rallies because they are a ton more fun and more miles. :D
 
#60 · (Edited)
Nate Conley once said something really good to me. I wish I'd taped it, but I'll paraphrase the conversation.
G: Hey Nate, so you've been doing alot of rallies lately.
N: Yeah, hill climbs are fun, but you get to be a better rally driver by going to rallies. More seat time in one stage than in an entire weekend of hill climbs.

Then again, Possum Bourne's biography states, about hill climbs, 'you really learn just how hard you can push at a hill climb because you get to attack corners repeatedly and learn what the limits are and then apply that on stages.'

I agree with both opinions.

I'm all for supporting Idaho and 100AW and if they want to make concessions to try to get us out there then that would be awesome. But it currently has no place in the CRC. Maybe if we go to a RMRC in the future we could consider stuff like that.

PS> Mark codrove at GC1. Didn't score him for it though.
 
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