Special Stage Forums banner

Build or buy?

77K views 117 replies 49 participants last post by  A1337STI 
#1 ·
I am seriously considering building my first rally car (Ford focus ZX3) and I know the majority of the people on this site state that everyone, when they first start, should buy insted of biuld. I would like to know if there is anyone who built their first car and what trouble(s) they ran into? Does anyone have suggestions on getting around the trouble(s) they ran into?

I am interested in having someone build the cage for me in the car and doing the rest myself. Im located in the North east and I don't plan on running every event maybe just 5 or 6 a year(all that I can make) starting next year 2009. I have about a year to complete this goal.

I have sufficent time off during the week and I have a full two car garage to work in. I have a good amount of mechanical expirence and I stopped racing enduros/harescrambles on motorcycles to compete in this sport. I would appericate any help and/or direction I can get from people that compete in this sport already, because you know it the best. Thank you for your time.
 
#72 ·
When i first built my car i was at $4700 to get out on stage. and $900 for 6 new tires (could have bought used ones for $150 ish had i known who to ask)

I think you could get out onto the stages for $3500 building it yourself, assuming you already own the donor car, assuming you can do all the metal work / fab yourself, and going out on stock suspension , rims, and Used rally tires.

It will be Fun, but not competitive at all, And you'll need to pick a gentle rally since you'll be on stock suspension.

If you are looking at getting into rally from a Co$t perspective , The only answer is to buy an already built car.


oh and BTW , Grant Huhges is the only person i know who is setup to make a 'super cheap budget build rally car' and i think his delivered price for a rally ready (1.8 or 2.2 awd imp) I don't really want to write a price, because i don't recall what he's asking, but i know its super reasonable.
and it comes with good skids, great club level suspension, and a very good cage. IIRC its less than I've seen some open light cars go for though

If you're serious about wanting to buy a car, call him up.

And no one is being a jerk, they are just telling you "how it is" Yes in doing so it may be squashing your dreams of how cheap a car could be.. but its called a reality check (not someone being mean) ... That said I've heard of a Datson 510, log booked, for $1800. Call me if you're interested and i'll help you track it down. its in california
 
#74 ·
FWIW, I did some calculations last fall and figured I could put together a P-Stock Mk2 or Mk3 Golf for about $4500, if I built the cage myself and used the cheapest safety gear I could find.

That's with the stock engine, stock gearbox, junkyard R&P, open diff, Bilsteins, Sparco Sprint, G-Force harness, homebuilt odo, and homebuilt intercom.

But I sorta know my way around Golfs. And electronics.
 
#78 ·
okie dokie. facts are I got onto stage for less than $5K , yet there's a log booked car for sale for $1800. 3 of my close friends just took the plunge into rally ...
Nick bought a car for $4,000 which is starting off faster and better preped than my car started, But he has some issues to sort (brakes + radiator)
Tucker boutht a car for twice that , Super super nice prep and its ready to rally right now!
Jason is building a car , his donar is worth $6500 and he probably spent $1,000 for the cage stuff (metal, bender, die) he already has a welder and lots of experience. think he spent $800 on Rims and is rocking some used rally tires .

:) There's also no right answer to build/buy . sure buying is cheaper but you may be buying someone elses failed project riddled with problems. or you might get a huge score. if you like building / wrenching the enjoyment of making your own car, the sastifaction of taking the starting line on a car you've bled over is quite the feeling. Also intimately knowing every little issue (and fix) on Your car is a performance benefit.

there will be a "what's right for YOU?" answer, but it can't be found on a forum, only in a mirror.

I hope you find a route that get you into a car, and on stage. Its really fun :) and we need more rallyists of any type (driver,navigator,crew,organizer,volunteer, Photog, promoter) etc
 
#82 ·
Buy an abandoned project!....

Buy someone else's abandoned project!! It's the hybrid of build or buy. Buy this partially built and do the bolt on crap to finish it! I just scored this one and I'm selling it. Was in dudes garage for 2+ years after cage was done.

http://www.specialstage.com/classifieds/show-ad/?id=685
 
#83 ·
#84 ·
Rally Anarchy, Dirty Impreza, NASIOC, RS25 some sites are better than others. Best thing, ask people that are into rally, many times are not 'for sale' and end up being sold because someone asked someone who knew someoone who had one.
 
#85 ·
I sold the legacy and the buyer has since sold it regretting getting rid of a sorted car. Now I'm nearly finished buidling the Mini I'm 50/50 on buy or build. If you don't have the skills/time I would say buy a used rally car.
 
#88 ·
Ya selling your car was a big mistake. Now trying to get back into the market and the prices for prepped open light cars seem to have gone up alot. With the current price of used open light cars the economics of buying are getting closer to building. Something to consider.
 
#87 ·
I know that it's probably been said many times over, but building your own car is easier said than done my friend.

Building your own spec car is fun, but could be dangerous all in its own when it comes time for Tech...not to mention the time and money it takes to build one.

Biggest advice I could give, CLEAN welds and a pro built cage. If you're looking for the experience, and have the dollars to spend, then I'd say go for it.
But in my personal opinion...I'd buy your first car. Then if you still want, do a build. That way you have something to fall back on!

The best of luck to you in your new passion my friend.

Cheers!
 
#90 ·
You know - there might be a movie in there.

Oh, wait...

I know that it's probably been said many times over, but building your own car is easier said than done my friend.

Building your own spec car is fun, but could be dangerous all in its own when it comes time for Tech...not to mention the time and money it takes to build one.

Biggest advice I could give, CLEAN welds and a pro built cage. If you're looking for the experience, and have the dollars to spend, then I'd say go for it.
But in my personal opinion...I'd buy your first car. Then if you still want, do a build. That way you have something to fall back on!

The best of luck to you in your new passion my friend.

Cheers!
press on,
 
#96 ·
Every rally car is for sale, you just have to offer enough money at the owner or ask them for them to part ways with it. If someone wants to pay me cash for my car at a price I think is fair, I'd sell it. But I'm not actively selling my car.

But as far as build vs buy, for a first car buying is still likely the best, even if it isn't what you expect to have in the end-all-be-all. Just get something, go run a few events with it, then sell it for practically the same price you paid for it when you have an idea of what you want to build if you can do it.
 
#94 ·
Reports I've gotten from sources out there seem to indicate he now understands the shop telling him all this stuff was certain death and not legal was selling him a bill of goods--"Just leave it here and for $5000 we can install a cage and make some seat mounts, no problem..."
Sheesh. Shameless bastids
 
#97 ·
I think unless you , or a close friend / family member can make the roll cage. its better to buy a well caged car that is close to stock and modify it from there to your own liking.

Why spend X for a car Plus $5,000 when you can likely get a better deal on someone else who tried but didn't make it.

unless you are doing the work, you'll just pay a shop, which is basically buying a car isn't it ?

can you really say "I built this" when all you did was swipe your credit card? and to that. I didn't build my first car , I bought it. (Paid friends to make the cage/ paid friends (beer/pizza/steaks) to help build the car.

so if you're buying a car find the best deal.. right?
 
#99 ·
Something I would suggest if someone buys a car, tear it down and practically build it back up. Check the wiring, change timing belt, hoses, seals, do a valve lash, etc on the car. Just open up the trans and look at the gears/synros.

It's practically like you're building the car at that point, you replace/repair/improve areas that suck and make it your own. It's what I did with my VW. Still turned a $2500 car into somewhere close to $7000, but it was in A LOT better shape than when I got it.
 
#100 ·
exactly....So you basically bought a cage and a cheap car...
That's been ther case with virtually every used car I've seen....

So what's the advantage? Possibly none.

Advantage of building a car is a) you choose the car
b) you know what you did---and what you didn't do...
c) you gain some familiarity with procedures and methods of working on your car BEFORE you're sitting in service in an event you paid $750 entry and you have 20 minutes to do a 10 minute job except you have never done it...so you get late penalties, ruin the days results.
 
#101 ·
The advantage is that it's usually considerably cheaper. Maybe not in JVL world, but in everybody else's it is :p

And built cars tend to come up for sale more in the off season when people realize they didn't use it again this year and it's just sitting in the way and Xmas presents etc. need to be bought. This time of year there's always that slim hope that you'll get out there at some point.
 
#102 ·
Yeah cheaper, except the example just given by Billy Elliot above. Bought for this much, spends twice as much again to make it fit for fight.
Sp cheaper in everybody's world but 2.. Or 5 or 25..

Maybe its just in your world at the bottom of the well, Mr Frog.:rolleyes:
Maybe its see as not cheaper but better by those willing to learn as few really rather simple skills...and work a bit.

Imagine that.
 
#103 ·
One of the best comments I've heard about buying a used rally car is to assume the person selling it to you is trying to kill you with it.

In other words, once you buy it go through every critical component and make sure it is working right.

But, what I've seen around here is that you can typically buy used, do the needed work, and still be ahead of building a similar car by enough to get a school - or a couple of events - under your belt. As with anything... there are exceptions. We've seen people but 'ready to rally' cars that have been junk, we've also seen people buy cars that were truly turn-key cars at a steal, and even a few people who've managed to build from scratch for a very small sum.
 
#104 ·
I don't think I've met a single person who has regretted buying a car pre-built. Both the Talon and Hardy's STi were steals IMO. Hardy's car, while swapshop built it like a tank, was also built on a very time and money limited budget. Its taught me a lot of things to do to the shell I am prepping this winter :)
 
#105 ·
I've met maybe a half dozen.. several who regretted within hours/days...
look at the thread about the nice Escort sold out of Olympia that went to NYC..Good logbooked car..He takes it to some shop, they tell him all kinds of stuff and he puts it up for sale...There you go...


There is no ONE answer.., but one thing for sure is if a person is selling a car its because that car doesn't give him a stiffy anymore and it doesn't give him a stiff enough that he'll take a loss......even a already-been-proven-not-too-smrat-feller like me ought to pause and wonder "why he no like car no more and wants to take a loss?"

Maybe cause it was a stockish motor, with a stockish box and junk/dead/bent everything and HE listened to all the grizzled veteran who said "Just get any old POS and Luuuuuurrrrrrrn ta drive"

And its boring and/or sucks.

Maybe.
 
#106 ·
I know of one guy who cut two cages completely out before paying to get it done right on his new build. Many guys who just never got the car finished and on stage. I've both bought pre-built and built my own cars. There is no one answer for everyone but a great many people don't have the time,desire,skills,tools,knowledge,support group,funding or location to actually build a car from scratch.
 
#107 ·
I think i may have squeaked out onto the stages pretty darn cheap.

I had my rally car first ready to hit the stages at $4500 ish .. wasn't competitive at all , but it Was fun definitely took a few wrong turns with equipment selection but meh... i've mostly learned from my lumps !

although Honestly it needed about an other 4 grand to make it really fun / competitive (suspension / gearing)

*shrugs* no 1 size fits all answers ...

If you really love building / working on cars OR if you are good-ish at it and need to save the money ... think about building

If you just want to drive , or are not good at working on cars .. think about buying.

I was in the later boat, but i had friends who wanted to rally cross and were in boat #1. so we teamed up :) i bought the parts and pizza , they supplied the meaningful work hours. i put more hours in on the car but got almost nothing of value one. they put in some hours on the car, but got everything done.

we could probably make a flow chart that would be right more often than wrong but that's about as close as we could get to a self service answer.
 
#108 · (Edited)
I think i may have squeaked out onto the stages pretty darn cheap.

I had my rally car first ready to hit the stages at $4500 ish .. wasn't competitive at all , but it Was fun definitely took a few wrong turns with equipment selection but meh... i've mostly learned from my lumps !

although Honestly it needed about an other 4 grand to make it really fun / competitive (suspension / gearing)

*shrugs* no 1 size fits all answers ...

If you really love building / working on cars OR if you are good-ish at it and need to save the money ... think about building

If you just want to drive , or are not good at working on cars .. think about buying.


I was in the later boat, but i had friends who wanted to rally cross and were in boat #1. so we teamed up :) i bought the parts and pizza , they supplied the meaningful work hours. i put more hours in on the car but got almost nothing of value one. they put in some hours on the car, but got everything done.

we could probably make a flow chart that would be right more often than wrong but that's about as close as we could get to a self service answer.
Alex you persistently posit what too many do: "it" is an either or deal...as in you "just" want to drive or are not good at working on cars.....derptie derp, dood..Try this idea---about working on cars, or driving, or fixing, or thinking about whole process "or you could learn"...

I have wanted to "just drive" since i was maybe 15---it is therefore I learned to work on--and rebuild and mod and to weld and to think''analytically---about the "overall task"

You have never failed to state you can't "work on cars"...

Do you think there is some as yet undiscovered genetic component that predisposes or grants "working on cars' abilities?

Rally cars without all the silly creature comfort junk of street cars are about as simple as it gets....not very hard building an engine or a gearbox or welding: you really think the people that built the cars in the factories are hyper-motivated crank ace mechanics?
Its not difficult..maybe tedious and certainly not fun (and any body who says "Its half the fun, golly winkies" needs restraining before the become mass murderers or worse) but its not hard...
And we/you/Joe Blow don't need to discover any earth shattering principles---the only real problems is sourcing really fun bits at affordable prices, and making the priorities in life to free up capital....to buy the parts that can only be bought.

Or maybe i'm mistaken--often am----but do you not see learning (about driving, working on cars, thinking of the overall task) as THE central thing??
 
#109 · (Edited)
Well Very true its not a Dichotomy at all. the whole Build vs Buy is rather misleading. Almost never does someone buy 100%. they probably at least mounted the wheels to their own car, put in their own air , maybe pumped their own gas.

and equally true almost no one ever Builds every single component .. does anyone make their own engine blocks from raw ingots of iron?

But the point of this thread is In general are you Mostly building it yourself, or mostly paying others to ..

------------

Qualitative and Quantitative are drastically different concepts.

Qualitative is a true /false concept. IE Anyone can learn to work on a car. TRUE I agree with you Here
Quantitative is measuring with precision ... IE it took my crew chief 9 hours to convert my 1.8 FWD car into a 2.5 AWD car. You are heavily implying that Anyone/Everyone can learn to hit that 9 hour time. I DO NOT AGREE WITH YOU THERE

and you know what. That's OKAY! !!!

there's a little something called Aptitude .. a measurement of your ability or speed of learning in a particular area.
or in school Grades. you know where 20 some students get the same classes and homework from the same teacher and get different grades.

In math classes i used to skip class on occasion, almost never did the homework and always got the highest test scores.
college chemistry i skipped 90% of the classes and got a 97% on the class work. Others showed up every day, studied for hours and failed.

Because not everyone is equally talented at learning in all subjets

You are free to disagree with me all you want, but my opinion is based upon Facts, logic and reasoning.

Your opinion appears to be based upon you repeating yourself. - but maybe you've seen a study where 100 random people all were able to learn drastically different skill sets with the exact same results. cooking, auto mechanic, bio engineering, clothing design, wine making, and pharmaceuticals. *sarcasm* I'm totally sure that study exists .... /Sarcasm

---

but for the good of the sport , lets think about someone not in the sport , lets get them onto the stages ASAP (hopefully with a good gearing combo) so they love the fun and want to stay.

Yes the secret too having big competitor counts Is that competitors have lots of fun for spending very little. And i see how telling people to Buy everything and learn nothing flies completely in the face of that. But kidding ourselves that every single person can turn into a master mechanic is just kidding ourselves and won't help the many who would have been bettter off working extra hours and paying for the hard to learn stuff and staying with the basics.

the last part is just my opinion, no real facts either way . You may think the sport is better off steering everyone to do most of their own wrenching and just accept the losses of people who never hit the stages.

which is a perfectly valid view too. again just one i don't agree with.

as if that was the case there would be 23 some rallies that would be minus 1 competitor (me) and i hardly think I'm the only one ...


a more useful study would be figuring out of the dozens of new competitors who drop out, did they build or buy , how that effected their free time and finances... just a thought.


Relax, have a beer, have a smoke . plenty of room for Friends to have different opinions right? :D
 
#112 ·
Facts! Logic Reasoning!!! Yes Alex---your facts, your logic, your reaosning based on what? Your experience as a computer nerd guy..

And since you "like to debate" i call an ad naus-num red false flag on you..
You persist on arguing to score points and to score points you make up what you expect others to read in the "opposing" view point.

Here is a sterling example:
But kidding ourselves that every single person can turn into a master mechanic is just kidding ourselves and won't help the many who would have been bettter off working extra hours and paying for the hard to learn stuff and staying with the basics.
Alex nobody has suggested that anybody has any need to become "a master mechanic"...

And it is not FACT! LOGIC! or REASONING! to claim anything at the level anybody is doing things is "Hard to learn".

Logic; how would you know if assembly of engine or box is hard?
You said in your Good Ol Merikun Mythological Screed above that you don't have a (presumably secret genetic) "aptitude" for working more than clicking keys I guess. And taking college tests.

All I ever suggest in anything is to shoot for "pretty darn good"... That's all that's needed..
Building, assembly, driving, co-driving, crewing...all you need if pretty darn good on the basics..

All in all whether you realise what you have written says it or you do, you're above argument is essentially representing the attitudes prevalent in American Moms and Dads for more than 40 years which may help explaining why American pupils scores in every manner of testing has been in continual downhill slide;
You main thesis is "People have (mysterious secretly derived "natural" ) aptitudes or abilities....
Therefore there is little point to study hard..
And the corollary, which you have argued so perfectly: If you don't have (mysterious secretly derived "natural" ) aptitudes or abilities....

Then there is no point in trying..

You have successfully elucidated the American Dilemma:

There is no point in trying
There is no way to learn.

Good Job!
 
#110 ·
When the average competitor does 2.5 events before quitting, why would you recommend that they go all out to build something special? Buy someone else's heap and get racing. Your satisfaction will probably be higher when you're racing than wrenching forever and only then learn about the actual event costs.

Remember, if you've done more than 3 events, you already have done more events than 50 percent of drivers who have ever competed!
 
#111 ·
Well I just bought a used rally car...and I know I'll have to do some work on it. I would never build another car from scratch. I have the time, money, skills, tools,location and all the other stuff but I flat don't have the desire to put that much effort into it. I'm quite content to rehab this one.
 
#113 ·
dude you're a moron. i already put the logic. it's clear you don't even ready people's post's anymore.

you skim them quickly looking for ammo to argue ..

*shakes his head*
 
#114 · (Edited)
Its simple , each individual person has areas he/she is better at than other people.

its why different students get different grades in the same class.

its why different armed forces entrants get different aptitude scores and different assignments

its why not everyone gets into (sniper school, navy seals)

its why not everyone has the same IQ

its basically the reason why we have any award ever. is that the entire rest of humanity , besides you, realizes that different folks have different abilities , and sometimes someone's ability is so great they get an award or everyone is in awe of them.

Like Albert Einstein.

you are trying to say that hey if Alerbt Einstein can master physics and greatly expand human understanding, that EVERYONE else Can too.

that's your argument to build vs buy. every human being is equally capable at Every thing possible.

which is such a retarded argument its beyond laughable

its so beyond reasonable its like you Hate me personally.

John are you capable of being friends with someone who has a different opinion than you? I seriously doubt that you are.

Please keep an eye out in your mail box. i am buying this book for you :



http://www.amazon.com/How-Win-Frien...words=How+to+Win+Friends+and+Influence+People

Really you're just such a jerk to people when they disagree with you. really WTF is wrong with you?

do you hate me personally or something? I don't get it. but that's how you act.
 
#115 ·
Thank you, your order has been placed.
An email confirmation has been sent to you.
New! Get shipment notifications on your mobile device with the free Amazon app.

Order Number: 112-2207398-7728238
How to Win Friends & Influence People will be shipped to JVAB Imports by Amazon.com.
Estimated delivery: Aug. 4, 2015


Done.
 
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top