Are todays spec WRC cars better than the legendary "Group B" cars of yesterday?
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Thread: Are todays spec WRC cars better than the legendary "Group B" cars of yesterday?

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    Lightbulb Are todays spec WRC cars better than the legendary "Group B" cars of yesterday?

    Are the better balanced, better handling, WRC cars of today setting lightning stage times better than the Group B, monsters of yesterday?
    Last edited by Saab 9.2x; 04-14-2008 at 02:59 PM.

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    100 K right 4
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    Like any subjective question, the answer is "maybe, depends on what you mean by better".

    I'd sure rather hit a tree in a new WRC car compared to any old GrpB car, but more HP could be had in Grp B, and a lot less weight-so 0-100 performance would probably be an area that the older cars might beat out the newer ones.


    They are both categories of vehicle that I will most likely never get a chance to ride in, drive, or especially own, and since "better" is a meaningless term without more specific context, I'll leave it at that...

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    Global Village Idiot Nick the Brit's Avatar
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    Better in what way?

    If being purely quicker over a stage, then yes.
    If you mean better as in more exciting, then no.

    Pull the restrictor from a WRCar though, and then it might be crazy again.
    You have to remember how little the rules restricted the Gp B cars. I have heard rumours that without turbo restriction the modern WRCar would be around 700hp.
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    into right 2 tightens
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saab 9.2x View Post
    With the better balanced, better handling, WRC cars of today setting lightning stage times are they better than the Group B, monsters of yesterday?
    I'd say they are better in every way.

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    I have a cat. Eric Burmeister's Avatar
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    I'll pile on here.

    The ingenuity within the context of automotive technology contemporary to the different eras is focused a bit differently. While mechanical ingenuity boggled us during the less restricted atmosphere of Grp B, electronic ingenuity has reigned in the modern era where production-ish shells and more restrictive dimensional rules have left us refining cars instead of seeing ground up tube frame designs.

    Having seen a few examples of both close up, I prefer the Grp B cars because the mechanical design is front and center, whereas a lot of the advancement of the WRC car is in the wires and circuits.

    That said, if you believe in rallying as a sport of street, and therefore "production", cars on real roads, WRCars are certainly closer to what's on the showroom and may be considered truer to the concept of rallying.

    All depends on your point of view...

    But don't make up your mind till you've heard a 500+ hp Audi 5 cylinder with it's mouth wide open in person.
    Things could be worse. You could be a crackhead.

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    I've seen an Article where they removed the restrictor from a 2007 WRC STI tested it and without any tuning the car had over 500hp. Is there any form of Rally Cross or Super Special in Europe where they run the rally car unrestricted?

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    into right 2 tightens logic's Avatar
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    Well , seeing as i work on them and have been around them for a while , i would say yes they are better , they are easier to drive, easier to work on , easier on tires.Every aspect of them is better , from the ergonomics side to the look of them . It takes more out of you to drive a GRP B car because is more of a beast and takes so much out of you that you are basically trying to keep your self from having a cardiac arrest while driving.

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    50 caution yump Cosworth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saab 9.2x View Post
    I've seen an Article where they removed the restrictor from a 2007 WRC STI tested it and without any tuning the car had over 500hp. Is there any form of Rally Cross or Super Special in Europe where they run the rally car unrestricted?
    Thats bull 5hit, a WRC engine without a restrictor and consequent tunning wouldn't that much more power if any at all. The reason is that the ECM in these engines are tuned (fuel/spark/boost) for the restrictor and the air volume that is capable of flowing through it. More air coming through the turbo without it being tuned could result in detonation. Moreover, the rest of the engine is built around that calculated air volume, so they have higher compression and super @#$%^&# cam profiles designed to make caterpillar diesel torque at low rpms, which means no HP up top.

    If you want to know how much power a turbo rallycar would make without a restrictor, just look at the "tuner" market, EVO's, STI's, HONDA's, etc, have all beaten the 1000hp mark.

    As for the Eurorally cross cars, I remember that in the 90's they were in the 700-800 range now I dont know.
    P. Ferreira

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Burmeister View Post
    But don't make up your mind till you've heard a 500+ hp Audi 5 cylinder with it's mouth wide open in person.
    Or codrove in one for a year. I know I'll never be the same.

    WRC cars are all high tech. Group B cars were raw. That said, Group B cars were and are better than the WRC cars. They are more exciting, thrilling, louder, and scary.

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    into right 2 tightens logic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cosworth View Post
    Thats bull 5hit, a WRC engine without a restrictor and consequent tunning wouldn't that much more power if any at all. The reason is that the ECM in these engines are tuned (fuel/spark/boost) for the restrictor and the air volume that is capable of flowing through it. More air coming through the turbo without it being tuned could result in detonation. Moreover, the rest of the engine is built around that calculated air volume, so they have higher compression and super @#$%^&# cam profiles designed to make caterpillar diesel torque at low rpms, which means no HP up top.

    If you want to know how much power a turbo rallycar would make without a restrictor, just look at the "tuner" market, EVO's, STI's, HONDA's, etc, have all beaten the 1000hp mark.

    As for the Eurorally cross cars, I remember that in the 90's they were in the 700-800 range now I dont know.
    not true , you can get more by just taking the restrictor out , seen it done right infront of my eyes on the dyno. but to get more hp u need to change the turbo and the map as the turbo can only flow so much . only change is the HP went up and the torque went down.

    now the rally cross cars are around 450 -500 hp because of a 45 mm restrictor which is mandatory

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