Dave, I can only suggest you read NRS's time barring rules as from your statement, it appears you think they are the same as SCCA/RA. They are significantly different. With NRS, volunteers in the field or in sweep or at service don't declare anyone over MPL, so they literally can't be liberal with time barring, as they don't get to do it. That's a function of the higher ups. Anders
I am aware of that Anders and with RA it is the same and need a higher authority to time bar somebody and since they all are volunteers, it is still the volunteers or the higher ups if some people are being paid that need the reminders about enforcing the time bar rules unless there is an unusual situation and a bulletin is issues or something is posted on the notice board that time bars are being waived for everyone. Would never want a volunteer who is not an official time bar anyone. Even officials are volunteers. Have seen cases of lateness exceeding 30 minutes yet the competitors were considered finishers.
12-10-2015, 08:31 AM
Originally Posted by heymagic
There is an underlying thought that I've heard for a couple years, mostly from the RA camp that NRS runs a loose ship. I've heard it from several people and in several areas of conversation. While both Anders and Kris put on their own events, NRS technically doesn't organize an event neither does RA. The events are all put on by organizers and volunteer help, regardless of sanctioning bodies. As such each event will have general guidelines to run under but will have its own flavor and 'personality' . As one of the few organizers to actually have sanctioned the same event with both sanctioning bodies I can say I have not seen any significant differences in desires or procedures over a 10 year period of doing so. I've bent a few rules with both sanctioning bodies to keep things flowing smoothly and I've seen Stewards from both sides bend a few rules also. Life without flexibility wouldn't be much fun after a while.
Don't disagree at all with you Gene regarding needing some flexibility being needed and I've done that myself at times. As long as they're done by someone with the authority do do that, that they are applied to all applicable competitors uniformaly and they are included in bulletins or at least posted on the official notice board or in an extreme case announced at the awards so everyone is aware of the situation.
12-10-2015, 09:20 AM
Originally Posted by rallydave
I am aware of that Anders and with RA it is the same.... Have seen cases of lateness exceeding 30 minutes yet the competitors were considered finishers.
Sigh. No, it's not the same as RA Dave. And exceeding 30 minutes lateness (or whatever published number) and still being a finisher could absolutely happen AND BE WITHIN THE RULES at NRS. As I've already said, the rules are different.
You're worrying about something happening at an NRS event that is completely legal for NRS but would not satisfy RA rules. I really can't help you here: the NRS events operate on the NRS rule book, not the RA rule book. On the topic of MPL, the philosophy and implementation of these rules is significantly different between the two organizations. Print them out. Put them next to each other. I don't know what to tell you. It's like you're standing on a street corner yelling at some kid for driving on the wrong side of the road... but you're in England. That's the side they're supposed to drive on there.
12-10-2015, 09:38 AM
I hope I did not give the idea that the NRS rules/behaviors are at fault for anything or in some way bad. To clarify: they are absolutely clear and right - *I* as a competitor just get complacent enough with them that I make mistakes. The ATC is certainly allowed to wave us in early and offer us our minute - it's very helpful in avoiding road blockages, etc, which is nice. Or if the rally is delayed, tell us to check in later and we will get proper minutes regardless - this can be good for dealing with stage situations that need attention more than ATC checkins.
They aren't obligated to do this, was more my point, and if you get complacent as a co-driver and assume they will, you suddenly find yourself with an early arrival penalty.
As both a control worker and a competitor - I prefer this to my experiences with RA. Which have been firmly rigid, even in the events of massive stage issues and queues of 50 cars on icy roads with no room, when I have to jump from the car and try to run 1/2 mi up the road to get to the clock on time for.. well, really no good reason at all in that scenario. It's a burden on the control workers who are trying to deal with the stage situation to get things moving too - and it does them no good either.
12-10-2015, 09:51 AM
Originally Posted by Anders Green
Sigh. No, it's not the same as RA Dave. And exceeding 30 minutes lateness (or whatever published number) and still being a finisher could absolutely happen AND BE WITHIN THE RULES at NRS. As I've already said, the rules are different. You're worrying about something happening at an NRS event that is completely legal for NRS but would not satisfy RA rules. I really can't help you here: the NRS events operate on the NRS rule book, not the RA rule book. On the topic of MPL, the philosophy and implementation of these rules is significantly different between the two organizations. Print them out. Put them next to each other. I don't know what to tell you. It's like you're standing on a street corner yelling at some kid for driving on the wrong side of the road... but you're in England. That's the side they're supposed to drive on there. Anders
Guess I haven't kept up with your rules so I apologize to you Anders and yes, your rules while similar to RA do have the latitude to change whether someone is time bared or not without the need to issue or post a rule change. While I personally disagree with your rule as written, you have every right to put in rules as you see fit and competitors have the right to choose which or both series to compete in. Glad we got that straightened out and do have agreement with following the rules as written with the caveat as Gene wrote that sometimes it is necessary to have flexibility when situations such as ShadowImg pointed out. He provided some good examples of where flexibility may be needed. Only caution I will provide is that control volunteers should not unilaterally make these allowances without first confirming them thru net control, their Stage Captain or other officials who are in the vicinity to avoid unintended consequences.
12-10-2015, 09:57 AM
I absolutely think they should and should be empowered to. Net Control definitely doesn't need to be dealing with ATC problems if they're dealing with something like a red cross on stage. Unintended consequences come up either way - and the requirement for a chairman/control captain/etc to make that call when they are likely not present is not great.
12-10-2015, 06:43 PM
A lot of your observations really depend on the control crew. When I work a control and there's a big backup, I'd rather keep the road clear than clog it up with competitors trying to check in on time. It's obvious that the competitor is at the control "on time" or would have been without the backup. I'll often walk back and just ask what time they'd like and record the answer. Just as in a normal ATC, as long as the math is correct- no penalty. A less experienced crew or one that's short staffed may not do that. They may not know that that's one way to solve issues such as you describe.
That said , I have seen controls where for staffing or other physical reasons, the control crew is unable to that. Then we're back to the "running of the co-drivers". In my mind ,it's better to keep the road clear of bodies and cars until the situation gets solved.
In the Upper Midwest- Michigan and Minnesota, it's pretty common to share the worker base. So a control crew could possibly work 2 RA events in MN., 2 or 3 RA events in MI and a NRS event in da Yoop. Without reviewing the rules , the usual difference is when the time is taken- pretty much everything else runs the same. Those differences should have been covered in the control crew briefing before heading out to the stages. It's least confusing to the crew if the procedures between sanctioning bodys are as similar as possible. Let the scoring crew fix the differences. Ander's scoring system makes it easy to sort those issues out.