G2 CARS rules clarification

[saaboteur]

I think this may be only my second post here, but whatever. Been reading bits and pieces here and there, lovely forum.

I'm in Edmonton, planning to build a G2 rally car out of my '74 Saab 99. A few questions, though I'm sure there will be more.

The main question is regarding engines. I know G2 is basically open engines wise, 2wd, NA. The rule says that the engine "must be derived from the product line offered by the manufacturer". Here's the question - can I put a mid '80s 16v into the car? The way I read it, yes, but I've heard differently from other local guys. The car was never offered with the 16v, but it is a common transplant amongst Saab nuts. If not the 16v, can I put in a later 8v (the H motor)? This was offered in European 99s, but as far as I know, never on North American 99s - I don't think this is an issue now, reading the 2002 rules. For more clarification, there are three engines that are relevant here: the B motor, stock on 99s and early 900s; the H motor, an 8v (found in later 99s, and 900s) and the 16v, a development of the H.

Another question regarding the dash. Does this have to remain in entirety?

Electrical - where does one usually mount the master kill switch?

Catalytic converters - the car doesn't have one, and I don't think it ever came with one in Canada, but do I still need one?

Thanks for any assistance. Or should I be bothering the local tech guy? I thought I saw that Dave Sharp wasn't running things around here anymore?

[zipperboy]

Saaboteur;

You can run ANY Saab engine in your Saab, as long as it meets the Group 2 requirements (ie, normally aspirated, and 2.4 litres or less with the multipliers). The Saab engine does NOT have to have been offered in a North American Saab originally. You can put in a Saab engine that originally came in Saab cars sold in Europe.

Many guys are running Toyotas with 2TG and 3TG engines, which were only offered in cars sold in Japan. The 2TG and 3TG engines have never been sold in cars in North America. So, yes, any year, any model Saab engine, sold anywhere, as long as it meets the Group 2 requirements (see above).

No, the dash doesn't have to stay at all. You can completely replace it, if you wish. The original dash only has to stay in the Production Class cars.

Usually, you mount the kill switch in the middle of the dash, where both driver and co-driver can reach it WITHOUT UNDOING THEIR BELTS. If not in the dash, then down on the hump in between the seats.

If your car originally came with a cat, then you are required to have one. If your car did not originally come with a cat, then you are required to prove it to the CARS Technical Director (Paul Westwick) so you can get an exemption in your car's log book.

Yes, you are right in seeing that I'm no longer in charge. Suzanne Stewart in Calgary is our new Rallywest Regional Director. But it doesn't stop me from helping out now and then. :-)

Dave Sharp

[Andrew Comrie Picard]

Hey - this is great news - another Edmontonian, and in a great car. Dave answered your immediate questions perfecty. You may want to talk to other Saab rallyists on prep - you might have already tried the links on http://www.nesaab.org/events/2001/ju...restrally.html
and seen http://www.saabworks.com/

Carlos Arrieta in Washington DC is a great man and may be of assistance with Saab rally experience. Also there is the old "Karen Ann" 99 rally car lurking in the northeast somewhere.

I passed up a totally original 99 Turbo for almost nothing in Victoria two years ago and I'm still kicking myself. Let me know if you need any help.

Best, Andrew
www.musketeerracing.com
Flirting with the laws of physics.

[saaboteur]

Thanks both Dave and Andrew. Bit sheepish being referred to as Saaboteur, it's my vanity plate actually, but I think my update of the profile has sorted things. I believe we've chatted before Dave, sorry if any of the questions are a bit repetitive, I keep forgetting to write things down.

A few more questions have arisen already.

bumpers - "visually similar" - the car's bumpers are a bit heavy, big chunk of steel inside with foam surrounding it. Okay to just leave the outer rubber shell? I'll have to discuss with the other Saab rallyists on how they've approched this.

displacement - bit of confusion re: s.10 of part D, general regulations; not sure how this adjusted displacement and limits works. Does this say 3.0L for 2v and 2.5L for 2+v engines? And then under the G2 rules there is just a 2.4L adjusted displacement limit.

Anyway, thanks for the engine clarification. Is there another local tech inspector to speak with as I'm building the car, or will you be that person?

Andrew, thanks for the links. I know a few of the Saabers you mentioned from another mailing list. Actually know the guy who owns Karen Ann at the moment too, he's near Detroit and has a couple other 99 racecars too. James Fox of Saabworks has been egging me on to get some Wilwood 4-pots - so I did, and hopefully they will arrive soon! :) Going to bolt them up to my street car to give them a try.

[zipperboy]

Hey Vincent;
Yes, I remember talking to you. Not too many new rallyists looking to start with a Saab. Don't worry about repeating questions; it's a very technical sport and most of the rules don't make much sense when you're first starting out.

Bumpers - I wouldn't touch them, if I were you. The amount of weight you save will not make a big difference when you're starting out. But it will make a big difference if you tag a tree, ditch or bank if you have an "offscursion". That bumper could save you a lot of bodywork, a new radiator or even an engine. Once you've run a few rallies, and are getting close to the speed of your competitors, then a few pounds here and there will start making a difference.

If the engine you want to run has 2 valves per cylinder then you can run a max displacement of 3000cc before any modifiers. If the engine has more than 2 valves, then you can run a max of 2500cc before any modifiers. This rule applies, regardless of which class you want to run.

Then, because you want to run in the Group 2 class, you ALSO must fit the Group 2 engine size rules. There, it says you can run a max of 2400cc AFTER the adjustments for valves on page B-19 of the rule book. If you are looking to run the 16v engine, for example, Group 2 allows you a max of 2086cc engine.

I can help you with checking out your car, if you like. Send me a private email, and we'll get together sometime.

Dave

[Steve McKelvie]

Vincent,
Have fun with your Saab. I had the pleasure of co-driving with James Fox in his Saab 900 Turbo in Black River Stages last fall. We were leading Group 5 when we rolled several times. James and I scrambled from the car and then pushed it back on its wheels (we had two flat tires and only one spare tire), drove out of the ditch, and were underway within two minutes. We limped back to service, duct taped the windshield and rear window in place, borrowed a spare tire and ran the remainder of the rally. We finished and were not last in class! Great durable car and great driver!
I also run regularly in TSD rallies with Jon Butzke who has Tim Winker's ex-Pro Rally Saab 99. Unfortunately Jon is an officer on a US sub and has other duties at this time, so we have been unable to run any rallies since November.

Steve McKelvie

[Lancia037Rally]

Vincent,

I'm from Arrieta Motorsports that ACP mentioned and myself am another Saab freak. We've recently disassembled our Saab 900T rallycar for parts and to concentrate on campaigning the Open class Audi.
My recommendation would be to strip the bumpers and cut to maximize airflow and then not crash. More importantly is to remove high-center-of-gravity weight from the top and ends of the car. Saab sedans are known for rollovers. One recomendation is to use wheel spacers to increase the track (distance between left & right wheels) to make the car more stable. Don't concentrate so much on obtaining horsepower because the transmission won't handle very much without breaking (one reason we ditched our 900 effort). Find a competion tranny if you can.
If you have any technical Saab questions, feel free to email us at rallymech@aol.com. Like I mentioned above, we've recently dissasembled the 900T and have many of the parts we'd be willing to part with. Skidplate, lighting, suspension, wheels, wheel spacers, fuel cell, ....
Best of luck.

Dave Shindle
1970-74 tubular chassis Saab Sonett III hillclimb car project