2wd championship is now a reality...

[Pou]

This weekend was the RSQ AGM. There were some meeting yesterday about different aspect of the sport.

Today, at the AGM, Eric T.'s 2wd project was approved. So starting from Perce-Neige in january 2003, the "Coupe du Quebec" will now be a 2wd series only.

For 2 years, the championship eligible classes will be G2, P3, P2 and P1, for 2wd normally aspirated cars under 2000cc.

Starting in 2005, there will be only 2 classes: Production and G2 Limited. The G2 limited means limited modification to keep the cost lower. Nothing is decided yet has to what will be the limitations.

Another great news is that for Perce-Neige and Quebec, studded tires will be allowed for the Coupe du Quebec contenders (2wd cars). From what was said, maybe only one make of DOT studded tires would be approved, but I don't have infos on this one..

Also, they will try in an experimental way, to have some course note for one or two events of the Coupe du Quebec. The course notes won't be paces notes but more elaborate road book listing all the curves and some crest. But not the cut, don't cut, etc..

So that's all the info I have right now on this!!

By the way, Eric T was also elected president of RSQ with Marc Racine acting as vice-president.

Pou

[Daman]

so...this mean i have to run national starting from maniwaki...

i dont know....the 2wd series is a good idea...but its to bad they have to show the door to the otter car...i know they will be able to do the rally...but not be able to make some point is like a playing whit a imaginary friend.... im shure there would of been a way to do 2 championship side to side...

i just hope the national registration fees wont go up :'(


Ont va lavoire notre permis d'bières !!!!

[Frank de Kat]

Daman:

I'm thinking that you can still *enter* a regional rally (don't *have* to run the national event), but as you indicate, you won't score points in the coupe de Quebec.

Hovever, you *could* enter 'The 2003 Ontario-Quebec Independent Championship'...

The scoring is only based on the regional part of some national events, or some regional events themselves.

So if you have an AWD drive car in Quebec, and it fits in one of the classes that 'The 2003 Ontario-Quebec Independent Championship' supports, you can still run in Quebec regional events, with something to aim for..

Regards,

-Frank de Kat-

[Daman]

Yes.. ....of course we will register for that championship...no question about that....its a very cool idea...and a cool way to get people closer . we are from Hull...so rigth in the midle of the 2 province....its perfect for us....

for the 2wd championship.... i would hope for those that are not scoring point anymore that the regestration fees go down....at least ! that would be nice ? since they will be just like gost going rally to rally whit nobody keeping there points... i just think its sad to exclude people...:(

i have nothing against the mane idea... i would be more than happy to fight againts the best 2wd driver my self...one day...wen i get tired of my litle awd... but i dont like to be told what to do...or what car to by and drive...im like that what can i do....

Ont va lavoire notre permis d'bières !!!!

[Lancia037Rally]

It seems there wasn't enough competition this year after dual National/Quebec Regional entries were prohibitted and now there will be even less. Its a good idea in concept but the low number of entries does not support it.

Too bad for Quebec regional teams like Mathieu L'Estage or Danny Bujold that just completed a 4wd car and lives in New Richmond where the Ontario championship is too far away for him to contest.

Not so bad for me. Nichols still has the VW.
What is next, banning good drivers too?

[Brian Scott]

"Another great news is that for Perce-Neige and Quebec, studded tires will be allowed for the Coupe du Quebec contenders (2wd cars)."

WHOA!

The above statement can have huge implications......a studded tired car will simply be unbelievably faster than any non-studded car.

Not allowing the 4wd cars to run studs but only the 2wd cars doesn't make a lot of sense to me.........

You're punishing guys because they have 4wd.

Brian "If they allowed 4wd studs my entry would be sent in today."

[Lancia037Rally]

>The above statement can have huge implications......a
>studded tired car will simply be unbelievably faster than
>any non-studded car.

Yeah, the Regional competitors with studded tires will be passing or beating National competitors on standard winter snow or ice rallytires. Look out McGeer and Sprongl! Pierre P1 Regional competitor is in your rearview.

Brian,
You doing Open class in 2003?

[John Vanos]

I agree! You can't allow some people to use studs, and some people not to!

[Brian Scott]

The car is now in full Open class trim. It's very much like ACP's car currently.

However, which rallies I will be running is in the air currently.

I will not be running any winter events (unless I can run studs) as I simply don't enjoy them very much.

In Canada I really want to run the Western rallies but that is dependant on some sponsorship opportunities that we're attempting to secure.

I also plan on running a couple US club-rallies (on my Cd license of course) due to the 40mm restrictor rules.

Brian

[Doug Woods]

>The above statement can have huge implications......a
>studded tired car will simply be unbelievably faster than
>any non-studded car.

Perusse on studs in his VW? Hmmm. The organizers had better let him start as first car on the road.

Doug Woods

[Pou]

Hum.. Maybe I wasn't clear in my message. The studs are only for the Coupe du Quebec competitor. And there are no dual entries (national/regional) and no awd cars in the Coupe du Quebec standing.

I agree that the awd people registered in the regional portion of the rally won't have those studded tires and may have problems following 2wd studded cars.. And J-P Perusse won't have studded tires since he runs the national part of the rallies.

There will also be a minimum of 5 minutes between the start for the national and regional participants. The exact time will be set by the rallies from what I can tell depending on the situations. And even after reseeding, no regional can start in the national pack or vice-versa.

Pou

[Lancia037Rally]

>There will also be a minimum of 5 minutes between the start
>for the national and regional participants.

There are serious saftey issues problems with that. The last National team does not have a car or sweep following them and if they go off resulting in an injury, it is 5 minutes till any form of help arrives which is probably not acceptable to the event risk management plan.

The ideal start order is always to have the regional competitors started within the National feild.
If each event were to run seperately with their own course opening and sweep for each, the organizer needs 2 opening and sweep teams, the control workers and marshalls must work much longer, National teams who've gone off may have to wait forever to retrieve their cars, and so on.

I'd prefer the same rules for everyone so that time comparisions can be made. I'd think the regional competitors would want to see how their stagetimes compared to the stagetimes same-class or similar national entries.

[patr]

bite the bullet, do a stud deal with a manufactuer for all teams so it is cheap (they cannot deny that basically they will sell at least 200 of them at the rally) and we can all have fun in 'real' ice conditions !

let us run studs !

-Pat

[craig]

Being a lowly TSD guy, I am probably not worthy to speak in this forum . . . but I always viewed rallying in snow/ice with-OUT studs to be much more cool than with studs. We all like driving on loose surfaces, so now we are talking about making it less loose? OK.

Craig
http://www3.sympatico.ca/kchamm/rally.html

[PAddy]

Once the novelty of sliding around wears off, and you actually want to go fast, and possibly catch up to the better part of the rallying world, and not have to worry about stuffing your car up too bad, then studs become handy.

[John Vanos]

Just because you have studs does not make your chances of crashing and damaging your car any less...i'm sure you could argue it actually increases the likelyhood of a bigger, possibly more damaging crash

[PAddy]

Bad example. Probably leads to worse crashes in the long run, but still, everywhere else uses them, and if we want to compete with them.....

[Adrian Wintle]

>>There will also be a minimum of 5 minutes between the start
>>for the national and regional participants.
>
>There are serious saftey issues problems with that. The last
>National team does not have a car or sweep following them
>and if they go off resulting in an injury, it is 5 minutes
>till any form of help arrives which is probably not
>acceptable to the event risk management plan.
>

There is another issue with having a five minute gap (and is one of the reasons that the SCCA went to combined start orders) and that is spectators. If there is a 5 minute gap between the last (slow) national car and the first (fast) regional car, spectators will start to move in that gap (slow car, no more coming = time to leave). Then you get the scenario where the fast regional car arrives to find spectators (who are expecting sweep or potentially a limping car) all over the road.

I would suggest a re-think of the safety implications of that concept.

Adrian

[craig]

>Bad example. Probably leads to worse crashes in the long
>run, but still, everywhere else uses them, and if we want to
>compete with them.....

ARE we competing with them? Who, the Swedes, the Finns? Pat R did one round in WRC and it wasn't a winter event. Who else is running studs? Who else in Canada is running European events? I find it funny, if pace/stage notes cost another $10 everybody complains about the rising costs of rallying, and if it goes up another $10 they won't be able to run the next rally. Now you're going to buy a few sets of tires to hold studs? Just being more of a Devil's advocate. I like speed too, but sometimes the logic does seem odd.

Do they run studs in the US (serious question, I didn't think they did either, but I've been wrong before!).

Craig

http://www3.sympatico.ca/kchamm/rally.html

[Pou]

Anyway, for the studded tires, we'll have to wait and see. They were talking about a one make only and Perce-Neige and quebec are coming fast.. So I don't even know if there's a deal with a tire company coming soon..

Maybe timing is too short for this, we'll see in the following weeks.

For the 5 minutes gaps, last year in Quebec, there was such a gap between the National and Regional competitors and I don't think it was that bad! What was bad was the 40 minute gap in A3 waiting for the cars stuck in A2, but that's another story!!

Pou

[John Vanlandingham]

>Bad example. Probably leads to worse crashes in the long
>run, but still, everywhere else uses them, and if we want to
>compete with them.....
Oi! Paddy!
Sweden and Finland use the waaaaay fun studded tires, UK doesn't allow studs and when I read the Regs for Monte Carlo last time (93) they allowed only the normal 3mm diameter, 3mm stickout like road tires.

To all you doubters,
the big difference regarding possibly crashing is this :

With studs you can actually steer, and actually brake.
You get up to speed anyway eventually with or without.

As much as I love rally up there, and as much as the Winter is my favorite season, I will not do events on snow/ice without studs, it's a gamble.

Ive never done a full 360 on gravel at 110km/hr without warning in the middle of a straight.

And the eal Rally studded tires last for a long time if they are used on frozen roads,
and the are decent price alternatives, too.





John Vanlandingham
Seattle, WA. 98168

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

[John Vanlandingham]

Craig not studs allowed in the US.
The rule was introduce back in the mid 70s mid-week after the Dutchman Hendrik Blok used studded tires on bare red clay at a National event near Clear Lake California, and it had drizzeled and was slicker than snot.

He beat everyody soundly, and the Wednesday after the rule was sent out in typical shotgun fashion.

The current dogmatic, dig in the heels and resist any revision answer is "it's illegal to use studs in Michigan" where we have 1 winter event.
My answer is "Everything we do, like driving 90mph on County roads is illegal and we do it under special expemption for the duration of the event."

Go for studs for all folks!



John Vanlandingham
Seattle, WA. 98168

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

[Lancia037Rally]

>For the 5 minutes gaps, last year in Quebec, there was such
>a gap between the National and Regional competitors and I
>don't think it was that bad! What was bad was the 40 minute
>gap in A3 waiting for the cars stuck in A2, but that's
>another story!!

I was in car#13 which rolled into a ravine on A2. The car came to rest buried in snow and we had to dig snow to get out of the upside down car so got wet and cold before we could locate our gloves and parkas. It took over 2 hours for sweep to get to us. Much of this was due to the fact the regional cars could not get up the long steep hill and maybe that is why studded tires are being considered for them this year. But the extra 5 minutes was just more time we sat around in the practical wilderness freezing.

I've also been in the first car in a ClubRally (Regional)that started 5 minutes after the last National car and can confirm Adrian's comment above about finding people on the live stageroad unprepared for a car coming flat out after the 5 minute lull. Luckily it was at CherokeeTrails where spectators were few and the very protective NFS Rangers had most of them in safe spectators areas and threatened issuing tickets to spectators not in a spectator area. Quebec is a different story. Many more spectators who already are familar with the stages and can find unmarshalled areas.

[patr]

since most of you have no idea why you might want to run studs, here is the real reason:

the higher the slip angle, the more grip they provide (due to a host of issues including tire deflection, more studs down, etc.) THIS IS WITH A 'proper' studded rally tire and may not apply to anything else you may have experience with.

trust me, anyone who has driven them knows this

so my main reason for wanting it ? BECUASE IT WILL MAKE THE SHOW 10 TIMES MORE SPECTACULAR. More sideways == more grip. Think about it.

if we had a 'control' studded tire, the costs will not go up they will go down. We never, EVER bring more tires to a rally than we do at the snow events. ice, snow, mized ice snow, tractionized, untractionized etc. A control winter tire is a great idea. Anything else, maybe not,.. that was what I was suggesting.

[aafce]

"the costs will not go up they will go down"

Pat,


I agree only if all competitors will use one brand.
You are right. Everybody should have right to use them what will make the events more spectacular for TV coverage and spectators.

It is an excellent idea to try first on 2WD car this year. Next year we may see what the BIG guys can do with studs :9

Cheers,

Jerry