Seat thread v7.2

[bknblk]

Ladies, Gentlemen and most of the rest of you,

I'm starting to seriously hunt seats. No sense in anything non-Fia if I want to play anywhere but Rally America dba Rallycar. Really seems prudent to do head restraint wings, as we get into more sideways trouble than most. Seat Nets are nice but not near as good as head wings.

The Problem: I'm 6' 6"ish 200 lb, 34 inch waist. I tried on some Sparco, Circuit and Pro ADV, and the hips fit great but the circuit was way short and the ADV was still hitting me on top of the shoulders even with the seat pad pulled.

I've looked at the Recaro and Racetech sites but no one, Sparco included, lists in the specs the height from seat bottom to head wing. Comparing other specs, the racetec and recaro do not appear to be any "taller" than the ADV. I'm afraid I'd get lost in the bottom of the big boy seats.

I'll be at LSPR if any lanky folk have anything to try.

Thanks!

Tony

[Phlyan Pan]

Seat Nets are nice but not near as good as head wings.


I'm certainly not an expert but I don't know if I necessarily agree with that statement. If done properly I think nets can be as good or better than head restraints. Especially for someone with "unique dimensions".

[bknblk]

My gut feeling on this (wings vs. nets) is two fold: First, the lateral movement of ones neck would seem quite a bit less before contacting the restraining system. Second, in the event of a side incursion by your friendly neighborhood Oak, the 6- 7 inches of fiberglass and padding material in the wing is between me and tree. Don't see the net offering much there.


I may very well having to give up on headwings. It the price of one seat is 10X what I paid for the car... "I know, what's my head worth?" answer: not 5 grand.

[Mark Holden]

Ask Eric Burmeister to measure his RaceTech seats. He's in your height range.

I do know that being 6' 0" and most of my height in the trunk, it's a pain to find seats that are designed tall enough.

Wings aren't going to do a damn thing for you in the case of intrusion. Much better to have the diagonal brace from the half-lateral to the main hoop than a flimsy piece of fiberglass designed to have it's strength the other direction.

[Safe Drives]

Please note that any FIA homologated seat that is under $1500 retail will be made from materials that will be somewhat flimsy when you throw a full grown human at the side of the seat, at 35 miles per hour. Remember folks, the seat (and car) will stop when it hits the tree, your body will want to keep going. The seat will bend, considerably. Check out the in car video here from Lurches car at NEFR 2010. What I want you to notice here is that the seat top will sway back and forth with the weight of just Lurchs body hitting the side of the seat at 1-2 Gs laterally.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v7bCdLzqJqc (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v7bCdLzqJqc)

Now imagine his body hitting the side of the seat at 35 MPH (or 40g).

Lurch has the very nice and very expensive Racetech "Viper" seat that was tested supposedly, at 70 G impact. Lurches fancy Racetech seat is designed to work with nets in a side impact, to greatly improve side impact survivability. You can see at the top of his seat it has a little loop for the net to go through.

Trust me when I tell you that ANY SEAT can be made to perform much better with the use of side impact nets. For the outside net you can place a nice piece of FIA or SFI padding on the net so that you at least have some Impact foam between your head and whatever is coming through that window. In my last rally car, for the safety set up I had the side head wing OMP HTE Seat braced up with my side impact net and some DOW Impaxx foam attached to the net. (4 nets total in the car, 2 per seat)

The head wings of these seats are not, I repeat ARE NOT designed to absorb impact energy from a tree striking the side of that head wing. You can, as we now see in WRC cars (and my car) that you can attach impact foam to the outside of these head wings. This would be the same foam that you can attach to your side impact nets when using seat that do not have the side head wings.

Bottom line is that nets help no matter what seats you are using. I'm available all day to answer questions like these by phone. All I have done for a living for the last five years is sell safety products like these. Safe Drives does not sell turbos or body kits, just safety. I am also a big fan of rally and have driven rally cars since 2002. Please, consider me a resource for your rally related safety questions in the future.


Best regards,

Charles Buren
Safe Drives LLC
877-739-1713
www.safedrives.com (http://www.safedrives.com)

[bknblk]

I didn't intend to bad mouth net people.
I trust Charles, even if he get's a little worked up about HANS :)

Nets are great. I don't see where the net is BETTER than Wings in the situations I pointed out. Net's are good, wings are good. Nets and Wings are best.

If buying new, why not try for the best one can afford. $1500-1800ish is what I can afford. I'm just a little sad bunny that short people get something I don't :)

[John Sundelin]

I think the Racetech is probably your best (and last) hope. I ended up getting the ProADV, but I tried a Racetech and there was definitely more room between the wings and my shoulders. They also make a "Tall/Wide" version of one of their seats, but I don't think it's homologated, though it would still be fine for RA.

Edit: You might also want to take a look at the OMP and Sabelt seats, though if I remember correctly, they are not quite as suitable as the Racetech.

--
John

[Phlyan Pan]

Nets are great. I don't see where the net is BETTER than Wings in the situations I pointed out. Net's are good, wings are good. Nets and Wings are best.


Just as a clarification...I didn't intend to say a net IS better. I intended to say a net could be better based on your situation. As in, a better solution to the problem.

Just a few examples:

A net is removable. If your seat with wings doesn't fit you right it could make it very hard to get in and out of the car. A net doesn't present this problem.

A net probably would have better visibility out the sides and back than a seat with head restrains. (I've never used one so I'm speculating here)

Nets can help to decelerate the trunk of your body (chest and shoulder area) that head restraints probably don't.

Nets might save your rally. If you break a side window and don't have a replacement, you're not allowed to continue...unless you have nets.

As others pointed out, if you're planning on your seat offering you intrusion protection, make a better plan. A seat is for keeping you where you belong. A cage is to keep stuff out. I'm just trying to say that depending on how you define your goals, a net with a regular seat might be as good or better than head restraints.

[Doug Heredos]

Check out the Sabelt Taurus. We bought the XL version, and they're nice, if a bit heavy. They have headwings that work well for another guy about your size. Price ~$850 each. We bought ours from SafeDrives.

Doug

[nperkins]

I've said it before, and i'll say it again... I LOVE our Cobra Evolutions...

[bknblk]

Is the titan XL any TALLER than the Titan L? I can't find specs.

On the Cobra Evo... It looks like the headwings are way out, ie it wouldnt matter how tall I am, My shoulders would fit between the wings. The Sebring on the other hand has a more familar look.

[RacetechSteve]

I just wanted to chime in and share what happens during a lateral g-force accident when you are not using a head restraint.

The co-driver could not figure out why his shoulder/collar bone was so bruised and sore after this accident. When they finally looked over the video, the team had their answer!

This video was key in designing the original head restraint seat! Head Restraints are critical...nets only help make things better!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uYYjUBR-I6w

I went ahead and did a little leg work for you and took some measurements on three different seats (for perspective)

Inside Width @ Hips / Height to Bottom of Shoulder Harness / Height to Bottom of Head Restraint
RT4009HR 14.5" / 22.75" / 26.5"
RT4009WHR 16.375" / 22.75" / 26.5"
RT4009WTHR 16.375" / 26.0" / 28.0"

Me being a guy of normal height, 5'11" with a 36" waist fits into the RT4009WHR beautifully. The head restraint wing sits dead even across my cheek and my eyes sit 3.75" above the top of the head restraint, which allows me to see perfectly out above both sides of the seat..

The RT4009WTHR makes me feel like a dwarf, my cheek sits at the very bottom of the head restraint wing with my lowest point on my jaw hanging just below the head restraint wing and my eyes sit 1.25" below the top of the head restraint, completely blocking my side views.

[bknblk]

The Rt 4009 WTHR looks like it would be workable EXCEPT it doesn't appear to be FIA rated :( It's too wide but that can be fixed. No FIA can't.


Maybe seat nets are it?

I've also entertained this crazy notion: We like mounting seats to the cage elements, correct? You can't modify any homologated anything w/o screwing up the homologation, correct?

What would be the harm in mounting headwings not to the seat but to the main hoop? Seat movements and cage movements should correlate. Not attaching to the seat wouldn't mess with its approval.

[Phlyan Pan]

Sparco makes a head wing that does mount separately from the seat. At $400, it seemed a bit much to me.

http://www.sparcousa.com/pseats_acc.asp?id=188

[Jgardhouse]

Sparco makes a head wing that does mount separately from the seat. At $400, it seemed a bit much to me.

http://www.sparcousa.com/pseats_acc.asp?id=188

I remember Planet Motorsport had ordered them for their car and sent them right back - sounded like the wings are an epic fail... Besides, I'm pretty sure drilling an FIA seat makes it void.

[bknblk]

I figured as much. That's why the thought of not mounting to the seat. Maybe chase something out of Kirkey, cage mounted.

any word on the 4009WTHR and FIA rating?

[RacetechSteve]

The Rt 4009 WTHR looks like it would be workable EXCEPT it doesn't appear to be FIA rated :( It's too wide but that can be fixed. No FIA can't.


Maybe seat nets are it?

I've also entertained this crazy notion: We like mounting seats to the cage elements, correct? You can't modify any homologated anything w/o screwing up the homologation, correct?

What would be the harm in mounting headwings not to the seat but to the main hoop? Seat movements and cage movements should correlate. Not attaching to the seat wouldn't mess with its approval.

The WTHR is not FIA Homologated because the demand for the seat is not high enough to justify the costs of the testing. The driver needing this seat is going to have a heavy torso, which means this seat should be backmounted in any condition! The WTHR comes with pre-molded back-mounting provisions, which negates the need for FIA Homologation...Problem solved! :)

[bknblk]

Steve,

I really appriciate you help. I don't read any backbrace provision in the NASA Rally sport rules.


3.7 Seats
Seats shall be of one-piece construction, and shall be firmly mounted
to the floor of the vehicle in such a manner as to prevent the
movement of the seat in case of an accident. Aluminum seats (e.g.
Butler Built, Kirkey) are banned as of 3/1/05. Use of FIA
certified/homologated seats is required.

[RacetechSteve]

As far as I have seen in every sanctioning body of racing that uses FIA Homologation, the homologation is required *IF* using a floor mounted only seat. When a seat is out of FIA date or does not carry a homologation, a back mount retrofit can be done to pass tech inspection. This includes NASA, but Rally may have a different provision specifically for Rally...I will do a little research and see what I can find!

[bknblk]

thanks, Steve.

[heymagic]

Currently NRS requires FIA seats only. We don't toss them out when the cert expires but we do look at condition and mounting. That said we are always willing to look at sensible alternatives and we are currently looking at possible other seat options.

Gene McCullough
NRS Western Chief Scrutineer

[Sube Sports]

http://www.subesports.com/products/cat/Seats/brand/Cobra/prodID/1956

http://www.cobraseats.com/App_Images/msimg/sebringpro_spec1.gif

Cobra Sebring Pro: Kevlar construction, CONFOR foam in the head pad area (absorbs 85% of initial shock energy), 1.5" set back at the headrest for TRUE HANS compatibility. Basically 6 lbs. lighter, 1000x stronger than the other fiberglass seats that you are considering. Sebring 'Pro' was lengthened and contoured over it predecessor the Sebring 'S' to fit the taller torso individual (taller) - it seems we are all getting taller each generation. It comes in two different widths (Std. and GT) for proper body fitment.

One thing that the other proponents fail to mention is the seats that they are advocating are tested with a 165lb. body block at 24G's over a 50 ms duration for FIA 8855-1999 approval. Fiberglass seats just pass this test with the 165lbs. body block, hence the FIA certification. These same manufactures build wider and taller seats to accommodate individuals up to 260lbs. and test them with the required 165lbs. body block, slap a FIA sticker on it, and the larger consumer is under the assumption that he is in a safe seat for his size. NOT THE CASE.

As the importer of Cobra Seats, I have designated the construction of all Cobra Seats in North America to have a Kevlar or Carbon Fiber shell to insure a structure that will not shear and diminish in the catastrophic incident. So I put it to you, would you rather spend $799.00 for a seat in fiberglass or for $200 more ($999.00) for a seat in Kevlar that will perform properly for your added height and weight (greater than 165lbs.).

Call me tomorrow and I will be more than happy to give you any dimension you desire from any of the 1200 seats that we inventory - Chad DiMarco.

[markhuebbe]

Has there been any extra testing done with this Kevlar seat to support the claim that it will hold up to heavier drivers?

[bknblk]

http://www.subesports.com/products/cat/Seats/brand/Cobra/prodID/1956

http://www.cobraseats.com/App_Images/msimg/sebringpro_spec1.gif

Call me tomorrow and I will be more than happy to give you any dimension you desire from any of the 1200 seats that we inventory - Chad DiMarco.

Chad,

Thanks for the info! It's appreciated. If you could, for everyone's benefit post here: Length from seat bottom to bottom of head wings and seat bottom to shoulder harness holes.

Thanks!

[Sube Sports]

That is correct, as a routine procedure we test all of our Kevlar shells to a 40G standard on the FIA testing sled while performing the standard 24G FIA test. Since the FIA test requires a 165lb. body block, we have to increase the velocity to simulate the overall momentum of the 200-260lb. occupant.

The principle property of Kevlar stranding allows infinite deflection without shearing hence its usage in bullet-proof vests, tires, and something relevant to rally - skid plates. Fiberglass stranding only allows a 2 degree deflection before it shears which is why it is an inferior substrate. In the catastrophic incident, you may crack the resin bond but the Kevlar substrate will continue to hold the complex together to continue to support the occupant. Fiberglass does not offer that integrity to overall shell complex, and once the resin cracks then the substrate shears leaving nothing left to sit in which is considered a catastrophic failure by the FIA.

Bottom line for most rallyists is: Given the choice, would you use a fiberglass skid plate or a Kevlar skid plate to protect your drive train? So, why are you so confident in a fiberglass seat over a Kevlar seat to protect your body? I know this sounds over simplified, but it drives home the point. Better yet – let’s have the purveyors of fiberglass seats lay down their testimony as to why Fiberglass seats are better than Kevlar seats. This really isn’t rocket science folks.

If you have more questions call me at the office as this is what I do and have done for over 22 years now since my retirement as a factory rally driver for Subaru. – Chad DiMarco.

[Sube Sports]

Chad,

Thanks for the info! It's appreciated. If you could, for everyone's benefit post here: Length from seat bottom to bottom of head wings and seat bottom to shoulder harness holes.

Thanks!

From the inside of the shell bottom to the bottom of the lateral head support (where your shoulder will just touch) is 27". From the inside of the shell bottom to the bottom of shoudler grommet hole is 27" with the top of the shoulder grommet at 31" - allowing a 4" differentating torso height acheiving proper harness location for HANS use. Just remember when measuring your own shoulder height: do it while sitting in your current seat with your hands held outward as if you were holding onto the steering wheel.

[bknblk]

Thanks for the quick update. I am in a particularly bad spot as I’m 6'6" and 200 lb. (i.e. notthatwide) It's all pointless for me in that it sounds like your seat is still too short. The Sparco ProADV is too short for me. Your Cobra might make a perfect silly seat for me though....

I don't think anyone would argue that Kevlar is superior to fiberglass in any respect other than cost. Given the choice, who wouldn't pick the best *** that they could afford***

It's not much in your example but it is a 25% increase, without shipping. most non fiberglass seats I've seen are way, way more than your Cobra, I'm sure those makers would say you had to cut corners *somewhere* to sell at $999.



I know others are following this thread and you have brought some valuble info to the topic.

Thanks!

[Sube Sports]

Tony,

I can see from another thread that you have already purchased an OMP HTE XL, I hope this works out for you because as an OMP distributor we have some experience with this seat and my opinion is that it will be too short for you. I'll be curious to see what your impression is when you sit in it. In side by side comparison the Sebring Pro (Std. or GT) is taller and more appropriate for your 6'6" 200lb. frame. This is the advantage in buying products from someone who has multi-brand diversity in their product line and simply more experience. Keep me informed.

[bknblk]

I ordered the OMP HTE XL from Safedrives.

Some of this is cross posted from the vendor area.

Well packed (factory) included 2010 OMP drool book, all kinds of ways to spend one's retirement fund.OMP must have heard I'm a Petter fan, so that's nice



I fit in the OMP HTE XL. I did not even have to pull out the seat pad. I wish it was tighter in the waist, but I knew that going in and it was a tradeoff I was willing to make. It's not that bad, I touch both sides, it's just not snug. Will get it mounted and rallyxed, should be on stage 100AW 2011.

Thanks; Charles, Chad and Steve.