Barriers for Speccie areas

[Phlyan Pan]

It seems like there's been no activity in the safety forum for a while so I thought I'd throw something out there for comment.

After watching video of the Camp Brulé spectator area, at first I was concerned because there are a whole lot of spectators on the outside of a corner. I always had thought of this as a big no-no.

Then I realized there were concrete barriers lining the road.

So...my safety question is, are those concrete barriers enough to protect spectators lining the sides of the road? If so, why aren't they used more frequently in spectator areas? I think that's the first I've ever seen them, though admittedly I spectate most rallies from some random road junction in the middle of the woods with just me and maybe a few locals that show up. If nothing else, they're definitely more effective at keeping people contained than some yellow tape.

[markhuebbe]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yYiT3tNrv6Y

Wow... I still don't know if concrete blocks would prevent a car from rolling over into the crowd.

[Adrian Wintle]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yYiT3tNrv6Y

Wow... I still don't know if concrete blocks would prevent a car from rolling over into the crowd.

The thing you have to remember is that, in the first direction shown in the video, the cars have just come off an acute left hairpin (you can see the first car rounding it), and so are still accelerating as they go through the corner. In the other direction there is a right hand bend (and bridge) before the left in front of the spectators.

Adrian

[randyzimmer]

I know that corner real well and was certain no one would or could screw it up.
Then at the end of the clip (9:10), somebody managed to go straight off at the bridge approach. I've hit the bridge, Sylvain has hit it, I think it'd be a shorter list to tell who hasn't but that far BEFORE the bridge??
Now, it looks like anything can happen anywhere.

[Adrian Wintle]

I know that corner real well and was certain no one would or could screw it up.
Then at the end of the clip (9:10), somebody managed to go straight off at the bridge approach. I've hit the bridge, Sylvain has hit it, I think it'd be a shorter list to tell who hasn't but that far BEFORE the bridge??
Now, it looks like anything can happen anywhere.

Yes, but the bridge (and the approach corner) catch people and slow them down before they get to the spectators. Anybody going too fast will be slowed down by the bridge (or, apparently, the ditch before the bridge).

Adrian

[randyzimmer]

Every time something idiot proof is invented, someone invents...

I agree that's a pretty good corner to watch from, I'd do it and not worry.

[Paul Jaeger]

.

After watching video of the Camp Brulé spectator area, at first I was concerned because there are a whole lot of spectators on the outside of a corner. I always had thought of this as a big no-no.

Then I realized there were concrete barriers lining the road.

So...my safety question is, are those concrete barriers enough to protect spectators lining the sides of the road? If so, why aren't they used more frequently in spectator areas? I think that's the first I've ever seen them, though admittedly I spectate most rallies from some random road junction in the middle of the woods with just me and maybe a few locals that show up. If nothing else, they're definitely more effective at keeping people contained than some yellow tape.

Who pays for the cost of the barriers?

What forest on County Road commission would allow them to be put on their roads?

You need a massive fork lift or crane to move those things, what organizing body can afford that?

I think Camp Brule is a special case and that example can't be applied in very many other places.

[Phlyan Pan]

Who pays for the cost of the barriers?

What forest on County Road commission would allow them to be put on their roads?

You need a massive fork lift or crane to move those things, what organizing body can afford that?

I think Camp Brule is a special case and that example can't be applied in very many other places.

This is why I ask. I don't know the situation at Baie. They do have it, so obviously it's do-able. How do they get it done?

What about those plastic barriers that you fill with water?

[Adrian Wintle]

This is why I ask. I don't know the situation at Baie. They do have it, so obviously it's do-able. How do they get it done?

What about those plastic barriers that you fill with water?

Camp Brule is effectively a permanently established spectator area, so the preparations there are not really applicable to most events. It is like asking why, if we have walls and fences at PIR for the Oregon Trail spectator stages, can't we have the same walls and fences at the spectator areas in the woods.

The water barrels are intended to be backstopped by something solid - otherwise the vehicle may just punt them rather than destroying them as they absorb its energy. They are really for absorbing the energy of a vehicle progressively rather than letting it hit a solid object directly (and dissipate all its energy in a very short distance).

Adrian

[Morison]

I'm guessing he meant water filled Jersey Barriers like used in the X Games course.

The camp Brule experience is so vastly different from anything else I've seen (including most of the 7 WRC events) in a spectator area that it is hard to take lessons from it and apply them elsewhere. It really is the creme de la creme of spectator areas in North America (thus it must be the source of the desert name Creme Brule)

[Phlyan Pan]

I'm guessing he meant water filled Jersey Barriers like used in the X Games course.



Correct.




The camp Brule experience is so vastly different from anything else I've seen (including most of the 7 WRC events) in a spectator area that it is hard to take lessons from it and apply them elsewhere. It really is the creme de la creme of spectator areas in North America (thus it must be the source of the desert name Creme Brule)

Fair enough, but assuredly it didn't start that way....or at least, it wasn't placed there in its current manner by god or nature. So how did it come to be as it is?

Sorry...not intending to get all philosophical. I just really don't have any exposure to Baie so I don't know the details.

[Adrian Wintle]

Correct.
Sorry, I was thinking of the yellow crash barrels as seen on highways.

The water filled Jersey Barriers would need to be linked properly to prevent them from moving significantly. There is a difference between using them to separate active parts of a course (where everyone has safety equipment) or using them to prevent intrusion into a spectator area. I'd think you would need a more substantial barrier.



Fair enough, but assuredly it didn't start that way....or at least, it wasn't placed there in its current manner by god or nature. So how did it come to be as it is?.

As I understand it, the Camp Brule property is owned by a rally enthusiast who built the spectator facilities (a number of years ago).

Adrian

[Phlyan Pan]

I'd think you would need a more substantial barrier.


Fair enough...I was just trying to think of something easier to put in place.





As I understand it, the Camp Brule property is owned by a rally enthusiast who built the spectator facilities (a number of years ago).

Adrian

Perfect...so all we need to do is find a rally fan who owns a decent amount of property on a cool rally road near an event and access to heavy equipment. No problem! :)

[Bruce Beauvais]

The water filled Jersey Barriers would need to be linked properly to prevent them from moving significantly. There is a difference between using them to separate active parts of a course (where everyone has safety equipment) or using them to prevent intrusion into a spectator area. I'd think you would need a more substantial barrier.
Adrian

The ones I've seen are designed to be linked together so that there are more pieces to dissipate energy. I've watched low speed, lightweight cars hit them (w/o water) and they all move. Usually referred to as "hitting the Legos".
The shape is close to the common concrete jersey barriers which are supposed to redirect e impacting vehicle down the side of the barrier. Filled with water and linked together, it'd probably work well- once. If the impact pops the caps off and blows the water out, you protection is gone.
I have been at a couple of "temporary " race courses (street races). The barriers used there are 15-20% larger than the "common" units. It requires a big forklift to move them about. Off the top of my head, they're about 6000# (2700 kilos) each. Impacts can still move them. At one race, it was cheaper to pour new barriers than to borrow existing ones and truck them back and forth. On the other hand, those street races are now history so there's a parking lot (or two) with cheap used ones stacked up.

[Do It Sidewayz]

I know that corner real well and was certain no one would or could screw it up.
Then at the end of the clip (9:10), somebody managed to go straight off at the bridge approach. I've hit the bridge, Sylvain has hit it, I think it'd be a shorter list to tell who hasn't but that far BEFORE the bridge??
Now, it looks like anything can happen anywhere.

Randy...

Embarassingly...i'll admit that was me.

I know the corner too, and just left the braking too late, locked up, got into the marbles and had to make a big decision.

1. Sideways into the bridge with my door.
2. Off the road over that bank...ending surely upside down in the river.
3. Just stay as hard as possible on the brakes, and pile it off.

While it looks kinda bad, the only damage we did was one cracked OEM headlight lense :O



For the 2nd running, i did stand on the outside of the corner, and i can tell you it is relatively safe...the only problem is you will get absolutely pelted with rocks from the passing cars!!

What you are missing is immediately behind the video taper is a beer/bar trailer, a souvineer stand, and a snack/chip truck.

[jimmy]

Only in Quebec !!! (on this Continent)


What you are missing is immediately behind the video taper is a beer/bar trailer, a souvineer stand, and a snack/chip truck.

press on,

[Bruce Beauvais]

Only in Quebec !!! (on this Continent)
press on,

Hey!! We've had the snack truck at SP on SNO*DRIFT and the Swag stands at LSPR areas. When the beer truck shows up, it'll be much easier to recruit spectator marshals.

[jimmy]

Bruce - you need to come to Quebec!

You could even translate for me................



Hey!! We've had the snack truck at SP on SNO*DRIFT and the Swag stands at LSPR areas. When the beer truck shows up, it'll be much easier to recruit spectator marshals.

press on,

[Anders Green]

What about those plastic barriers that you fill with water?

I've used them as rally barriers at Rally Tennessee.

Even empty, they are quite heavy. To move them around you really need two people (if you're lifting them off a truck/trailer). You can slide them around (again, empty) with one person.

We filled them halfway with water. Hitting full on damages your car a lot, but they don't stop you dead in your tracks.

The problem is really more organizational: generally such items are leased. If they come back unable to hold water (which they won't after any rally car hit) you need to buy them... about $600 for one. You can lease them from mid to large construction related places... but there probably isn't one of those within 50 miles of anywhere there's a rally. (Obviously... if rallies are near where lots of developed roads aren't.) So you need to add a couple big car sized trailers and a few trips to haul them in from 50 miles away. Pain in the neck.

Side note: we switched to plastic 55 gallon drums. Cheaper, lighter, and easier.

Cheers,
Anders

[American Motorsports llc]

Just my two cents on the issue.... No the barriers are not ever going to be enough. I have seen vehicles go over k rails AND a fifteen foot fence behind it. Basically it just comes down to this... This is a dangerous sport for spectators and drivers. So I am in favor of NO rails, NO blocks, at least in areas where there isn't a cliff to go off. I would rather the sport be safer for the driver than spectator. Besides... this is rally, not closed course.

[Phlyan Pan]

Not making spectator safety a consideration in a SANCTIONED spectator area is a sure fire way to get people killed and end the sport of rally in the US.

If you want to argue that spectators have no place and that we should run rallies with out them...ok that's at least an argument that might have some merit. But saying spectator safety is a wasted consideration is approaching negligent.

[DaveCotie]

If you want to argue that spectators have no place and that we should run rallies with out them...ok that's at least an argument that might have some merit. But saying spectator safety is a wasted consideration is approaching negligent.

Actually it is NOT a valid argument. You are either going to control the spectators or you are going to have Out-of-Control Spectators!

You can't stop people from spectating.

[Phlyan Pan]

I tend to agree with you Dave. The point I was trying to make was that I could at least see where someone was coming from if they said "we should try to not have spectators". And that at least I could respect the reasoning behind that argument.

But to say that we shouldn't think about how to protect spectators or at least keep them in safe places is an irresponsible attitude. And one that I would daresay no organizer would ever admit to having.

[DaveCotie]

But to say that we shouldn't think about how to protect spectators or at least keep them in safe places is an irresponsible attitude. And one that I would daresay no organizer would ever admit to having.

100% behind you on this. Dead or injured speccies - no rally

[Anders Green]

http://images.tmuscle.com/forum_images/3/5/35859-obvious_troll.jpg

[C_Eixen]

I tend to agree with you Dave. The point I was trying to make was that I could at least see where someone was coming from if they said "we should try to not have spectators". And that at least I could respect the reasoning behind that argument.

But to say that we shouldn't think about how to protect spectators or at least keep them in safe places is an irresponsible attitude. And one that I would daresay no organizer would ever admit to having.

I think the point is the only way to keep spectators safe it to ensure they're in areas that are unlikely to see a car go off, not on the outside of corners "protected" by short concrete blocks. I think Camp Brule falls into the first category, as cars don't need to brake for that corner.

Look at closed courses, they have 4 foot concrete walls and 20 foot catch fences, and debris STILL makes it into the stands. Oh, and they've had to pad the concrete because about the only thing it was effective at was killing drivers.

[seagull]

I think this is a good point. An ineffective barrier can make things worse by creating a false sense of security.