600HP and a floor mounted 4 pt roll bar

[Mike Hurst]

http://racersweb.com/forums/ford/1534-mustang-vs-tire-wall-there-can-only-one.html

[randyzimmer]

That's two Mustangs with complete failure of the OEM structure...
I'd be willing to bet a SAAB, Volvo, Subaru or smart would have survived that flip much better without any cage.
(Hope Lurch's job wasn't greenhouse design.)

[Abington Rally]

http://cache-07.gawkerassets.com/assets/images/12/2009/10/500x_mcrash02.jpg

v.
http://img41.imageshack.us/img41/1064/dsc00123ju.jpg

[Jard]

http://www.stinkybeaner.com/uploads/files/5/mcrash02.jpg


v.

http://img41.imageshack.us/img41/1064/dsc00123ju.jpg
bolt-in 4 pt. cage

vs.

full weld-in rally cage

[Abington Rally]

bolt-in 4 pt. cage

vs.

full weld-in rally cage

Yup, pictures are worth a thousand words ;) At the shop, we refer to bolt-in cages as "strap-ons."

[Billy Elliot]

Tire wall is just like that at Nelson Ledges when we did 24 hours of LeMons. I figured it would slow the car down, but you'd probably see some air and maybe a flip. This pretty much confirms my guess of what can happen with a barrier like that.

[jimmy]

Um, it's a 4 point roll bar, not a cage.

But the point is what it is mounted to (or lack of what it is mounted to).

A bolted in 4 point might have withstood this if properly mounted. Nothing mounted to sheet metal will do you any good!


bolt-in 4 pt. cage

vs.

full weld-in rally cage

press on,

[Eric Burmeister]

You guys aren't posting the important picture.

Note main hoop cage feet:

http://www.stinkybeaner.com/uploads/files/5/mcrash09.jpg

My cage builder (Chad Klungle) sent this to me yesterday with the subject NEED BIGGER CAGE PADS.

edit...No Randy. I didn't do nuthin with structure. Surfaced the pretty shapes. And while the more upright Cpillar and midroof Bpillar of a 4 door Subaru sedan would probably fare better than a 2 dr. fastback, this is about shitty cagework in racecars more than car design. ;)

edit edit...the first pic (glamour shot) is telling. Pretty wing. Schmancy intercooler. But look at the main hoop thru the frickin' side window!

[jandreini]

You guys aren't posting the important picture.

Note main hoop cage feet:

http://www.stinkybeaner.com/uploads/files/5/mcrash09.jpg

My cage builder (Chad Klungle) sent this to me yesterday with the subject NEED BIGGER CAGE PADS.

edit...No Randy. I didn't do nuthin with structure. Surfaced the pretty shapes. And while the more upright Cpillar and midroof Bpillar of a 4 door Subaru sedan would probably fare better than a 2 dr. fastback, this is about shitty cagework in racecars more than car design. ;)

edit edit...the first pic (glamour shot) is telling. Pretty wing. Schmancy intercooler. But look at the main hoop thru the frickin' side window!

Gee, Eric. I thought those were the Indy Car type jacks. :D Seriously, did some sanctioning body actually pass this? If so, remind me to stay away from its events.

[heymagic]

You can run track days with even less equipment and big power. Obviously the real issue is outlawing tire barriers and catch fences...;)

We should keep this series of pics for the next time Jens or some other old fart starts the "we never had_______in the old days and we survived" thread.

[jimmy]

Um, careful what you ask for Gene. Remember, these guys walked away from this one.....

Most crashes you can survive with a bicycle helmet and a 3 point belt. It's the other ones we are talking about !


You can run track days with even less equipment and big power. Obviously the real issue is outlawing tire barriers and catch fences...;)

We should keep this series of pics for the next time Jens or some other old fart starts the "we never had_______in the old days and we survived" thread.

press on,

[Broken Motorsports]

http://www.stinkybeaner.com/uploads/files/5/mcrash02.jpg

v.
http://img41.imageshack.us/img41/1064/dsc00123ju.jpg

thanks for using a pic of our car from this weekends off, hehe. That mustang only endoed once.
We did at least 2 barrel rolls and a full endo. Barrel rolls landed on the roof both times.

[Eric Burmeister]

[QUOTE=heymagic;330087]You can run track days with even less equipment and big power. Obviously the real issue is outlawing tire barriers and catch fences...;)
[QUOTE]

Was at a track day at Gingerman this weekend where they didn't require any safety equipment. Stock belts, no cage, etc. Go as fast as you want, wave around passing on the straights.

I'm not against this. I think there should be somplace for people to drive their factory hotrods legally above the speed limit. Why offer cars to the public like Mustang GTs or STIs or EVOs if there's no place to legally drive them in a manner they were designed for?

Was the car in the photos at a track day or a race?

[wvonkessler]

Look Deader, Go Slower.

Lucky guys.

[Rallycat66]

Was the car in the photos at a track day or a race?

It doesn't say anywhere, but given that it was a "project car" and there was a passenger in it when that happened, I'd guess either a track day or press event, but not an actual race.

They were lucky to walk away from that one.

[heymagic]

[quote=heymagic;330087]You can run track days with even less equipment and big power. Obviously the real issue is outlawing tire barriers and catch fences...;)
[quote]

Was at a track day at Gingerman this weekend where they didn't require any safety equipment. Stock belts, no cage, etc. Go as fast as you want, wave around passing on the straights.

I'm not against this. I think there should be somplace for people to drive their factory hotrods legally above the speed limit. Why offer cars to the public like Mustang GTs or STIs or EVOs if there's no place to legally drive them in a manner they were designed for?

Was the car in the photos at a track day or a race?

My son does track days with his car. I always make him wear the R-3. We did watch a new WRX get totaled at one, nothing as dramatic as the Mustang however. I like track days and hope they continue without incident. We go to 2 or 3 a year. Generally you have to have had some sort of driving school experience before they turn you loose at speed.

Multiple cage attachment points and low sill bars seem like a pretty good option.

I can't imagine how those guys got squished in that car and remained uninjured. My neck hurts just looking at the wreck.

[RallyTaco]

Pictures are all down on the link but it's on Jalopnik now.
http://jalopnik.com/5390929/mustang-crash-gallery//gallery/10


http://cache-07.gawkerassets.com/assets/images/12/2009/10/500x_mcrash02.jpg

[Adrian Wintle]

As well as the commentary on roll bars/cages provided by this, it also demonstrates why most tracks used linked vertical stacks of tires - much less chance of them becoming a ramp, although I have seen a car make it through the 3-4 layers of tire stacks and end up perched on the wall at Mosport (corner 2).

Adrian

[nperkins]

OMG! Look at pic #8 full size and you can see where the roll bar poked through the floor!

[John Sundelin]

It's a little bit hard to tell from the pictures, but those mounting feet don't look all that small. They may even be large enough to comply with our cage rules. The problem appears to be that they were welded directly to the thin sheetmetal floor, and not the stronger structural members that support it. I've seen a few rally cars that have the same issue.

--
John

[Jeff Hagan]

As well as the commentary on roll bars/cages provided by this, it also demonstrates why most tracks used linked vertical stacks of tires - much less chance of them becoming a ramp,
Also, in terms of prapractically, cleanup is a LOT easier with bolted-together 4-packs of tires than it is with a herringbone-pattern tire wall.


although I have seen a car make it through the 3-4 layers of tire stacks and end up perched on the wall at Mosport (corner 2).
I once watched a BMW 3-series hit the end of the tires at Mosport's corner 9, get vaulted upward, pause on its nose on top of the wall, spin once on its nose and drop out of sight... right by the tunnel.

It was one of the freakier things I've ever experienced at the track, mainly because I couldn't see the end result - I didn't know whether the car had landed on anyone or anything, so my imagination was free to fill in the details.

And there are interesting photos circulating the interwebs of an incident that happened at Mosport earlier this year where a Formula Ford managed to come to rest hanging from the catch fencing at corner 8 by one of the back wheels.

[dmoser]

OMG! Look at pic #8 full size and you can see where the roll bar poked through the floor!

On both sides, corresponding to the degree of roof collapse. Looks as though the cage itself may not have collapsed but the impact punched it through the floor with the same effect. Or maybe it was both.

Dick

[ajax]

I'm familiar with Hallett, Mad Mike would probably be a getter person to comment on this but the corner that it looks like they crashed on is really tight.

I have a friend who is finishing up a car build and he intends to do track days at hallett. I keep telling him that he should put a cage in his car, maybe I should show him these pictures.

[Abington Rally]

And there are interesting photos circulating the interwebs of an incident that happened at Mosport earlier this year where a Formula Ford managed to come to rest hanging from the catch fencing at corner 8 by one of the back wheels.


Yup, ahl is revealed on teh intarwebz! Clic pic for enormous version.

http://lh5.ggpht.com/_96-oC7C68iU/SujFASyDVaI/AAAAAAAAElU/_RgjLrK1LX0/s640/Ford.jpg (http://taylornear.files.wordpress.com/2009/09/img_0049.jpg)

[randyzimmer]

A few points here:
The Mustang hit just left of the banded tires with white covering.
The white part is where you are expected to hit.

If you watch this video:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8026313436530736640#
at 1:18 he enters the preceding turn
at 1:21 he is pointing at the white section of tires
The mustang didn't know the trick to car placement at that turn and ran left of the
correct line, ran into the grass and went straight.
He never even got to the right hand turn.

The cars at Mosport are Formula Vees.

[Bruce Beauvais]

We should keep this series of pics for the next time Jens or some other old fart starts the "we never had_______in the old days and we survived" thread.

When most of us grey beards started (before Jens) the only requirements were 4-point harnesses and a Snell Helmet. Then people began to die. More stuff got added. Most of the
SCCA safety equipment rules were written in blood. If you've been around long enough, you can name the incident that prompted a rule change.

[speedsnake74]

what does a mustang weigh..........

what does an impreza weigh............

obviously the mustang cage was a POS.

but its even worse to have a roll in a car like that,

the heavier the car under the roof the stronger the roof needs to be when she' upside down.

[JeremyN]

what does a mustang weigh..........

what does an impreza weigh............

obviously the mustang cage was a POS.

but its even worse to have a roll in a car like that,

the heavier the car under the roof the stronger the roof needs to be when she' upside down.

Well our impreza (the one in the pic) ain't that light, it's still got the radio, AC...and a 230lb codriver :)...

Jeremy

PS - Looks like the 2010 Mustang tops out at 3555 Lbs...so that's probably at least couple hundred more then we were when we rolled at IRNY.

[kainam00]

the heavier the car under the roof the stronger the roof needs to be when she' upside down.

That roof definitely needs to be stronger.

This is a WRX that crashed at a Subiefest time attack a while ago. He crashed it going 150 or so mph and did quite a few rolls and landed on the roof. I don't think the car had any kind of cage in it. You can see that the roof is far from pancaked, and the driver sustained only minor injuries.
http://www.pdxtuning.com/nasioc/DSC00206-set.jpg

Video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=phf_sLQ000I

[REDrum]

thanks for using a pic of our car from this weekends off, hehe. That mustang only endoed once.
We did at least 2 barrel rolls and a full endo. Barrel rolls landed on the roof both times.

Dude sorry to hear (see) it. Not a panel spared. It may take some work but it should buff out ;)

Great thread, worthy of a "sticky"