Temporarily stuck in car by HANS

[Lancia037Rally]

Last weekend was the first privilege I've had of testing my Hans in an accident situation. It was not the situation the HANS was designed for, high speed deceleration, but a soft roll. I've rolled on several occasions pre-HANS years; hang upside down, release harnesses, drop on head, crawl out of car. But this time wearing a HANS, it seemed to be the HANS hung up keeping me inverted and not fully dropping after releasing harnesses. Was smelling the leaking trans fluid smoking and really wanted to get out of there but had to fight with it for awhile before being able to climb out. Anybody else?

[BenSlocum]

I've been stuck in a car on it's side twice where my HANS decided to go on one side of the roll cage while getting out while my helmet went on the other. Both times I stopped for a second, took a breath, regrouped and tried again (o.k., in the heat of the moment I maybe paused for a half second to think it through). My solution was to shorten the tethers as much as possible to still retain enough movement to use it on stage without difficulty. Since then, no problems extracting.

[bentmettle]

Last weekend was the first privilege I've had of testing my Hans in an accident situation. It was not the situation the HANS was designed for, high speed deceleration, but a soft roll. I've rolled on several occasions pre-HANS years; hang upside down, release harnesses, drop on head, crawl out of car. But this time wearing a HANS, it seemed to be the HANS hung up keeping me inverted and not fully dropping after releasing harnesses. Was smelling the leaking trans fluid smoking and really wanted to get out of there but had to fight with it for awhile before being able to climb out. Anybody else?

the video (lots of swearing, turn down the volume if you're are at work) - http://www.bentmettle.com/videos/NEFR%202009.mov

My basic question about the HANS is what does the 2 inches of material above the straps do other than get caught on stuff? Even if that needs to be there, the HANS could have a significantly larger radius, on the order of 1" rather than 1/4" and it would get snagged on stuff far, far less often.

I wasn't caught when I got out, but my feet were in a position that I had to do a lot of manuvering to get where I could push the door open. So it seems that being upside down, in a ditch, with one door pinned against the hill, and the other pinned against heavy underbrush is a lot of work to get out of.

The smoking fluid was the power steering fluid (apparently, it's totally empty).

[BenSlocum]

The smoking fluid was the power steering fluid (apparently, it's totally empty).

Well that was your problem, if you keep it full you can turn and avoid rolling.

[randyzimmer]

Watch out Dave, you're pissing on holy ground here.
Don't you know HANS is the ANSWER?
No one will ever be hurt ever again.
Ever.

[Morison]

I've had the HANS device catch on cages getting out of a car in regular use and while climbing out after an accident.
Releasing the device from the helmet is quick and not that difficult (although in a rush I think we've all gotten out of the car with releasing the intercom connection)

Dave, what was the device hung up on?

[randyzimmer]

The problem is, you don't know unless someone else looks at it for you.
I suffered with intercom failures over and over until John saw it happen and I could make the changes needed.
Transits are more of a juggling act than ever trying to manage more square feet of expensive crap rolling around and falling off the dash.
Doing simple checks of the car become much harder. I only get out now when I really have to. Will I miss seeing a simple fix that turns into a big problem?
Arriving late at a control is a constant worry. Keeping the stuff on your head is a solution but overheating isn't a great tradeoff either.
The HANS is a solution in search of a problem. Its great when you need it but will it cause more damage than it saves? With so many teams using it, and more in-use data, it may be time for a review.

[Morison]

Randy,

How many events have you run with a head and neck device?

My first event with my HANS was a disaster. it was uncomfortable, awkward and a real pain in the ass to use. (I actually stopped using it at one point - it wasn't mandatory then)

Second event it was easier to use... now It feels really odd NOT having the device.

In short my experience is that, with practice, a head and neck device doesn't hugely change the process of getting ready for a stage.

Like any safety device, you don't need it until you need it but I KNOW the device has reduced the wear and tear on my body in general at events. (it spreads shoulder belt loads)

[randyzimmer]

Keith, you sly dog, yes it was my first and things got better as it went on...
but it still doesn't fit in the car, especially with all the new bars and gussets and BS and I don't have the CARS sized tubes.
At one time I considered doing what was safe and asking for a 5 min. HANS allowance at the controls rather than knee steering and thrashing around. I asked Terry if his ears were burning while at service. I admit to calling him some very unflattering names quite a few times. I think we were lucky not to have crashed about 8 times due to HANS related BS. Usually on transits.

[Safe Drives]

The early R3 units had that same (as HANS Device) "hook" at the top of the device when it first got it's SFI 38.1 certification. A year later they re-certified the R3 device without the "hook". Now all Safety Solutions HNRs come without a "hook" like what HANS Device has.

R3
http://safedrives.com/prodimages/lfttech/R3rage_sm.jpg




Hybrid
http://safedrives.com/prodimages/lfttech/hybridrage_sm.jpg


Hybrid Pro
http://safedrives.com/prodimages/lfttech/hybrid_pro_sm.jpg




All of the above devices you wear like a very small lightweight backpack. They are always going to travel with you. Also, all of the above units have quick release tethers system included.

[Don Kennedy]

Our RWV roll last year, we ended up upsidedown. The first thing I did (amazingly) was to release the HANS from the helmet. The helmet then got stuck when I tried to get out and it took forever to undo the helmet strap so I could get out and leave the helmet in the car. It just was where I was trying to crawl out of the car that caused the helmet to catch. If I had been an little more patient and moved a couple of inches, I think the helmet would have come out on my head no problems. But no real problems with the HANS.

[bentmettle]

Keith, you sly dog, yes it was my first and things got better as it went on...
but it still doesn't fit in the car, especially with all the new bars and gussets and BS and I don't have the CARS sized tubes.


The rally car is relatively spacious compared to something like a stock car.

My "tip" if you don't want to wear the HANS on transit and you don't want to put it in the back of the car is to slide it over your knee flat like a pilot's kneeboard.

[Colin B]

Well.....I wish I would have had it. I'm 99% sure if I had one when I crashed I wouldn't be on the brink of having surgery on my neck. Suffering for 2 years with the nagging pain absolutely sucks. When you need it you need it, and I wouldn't have gotten back in a car w/o one anyway....

[Safe Drives]

It should be pointed out that at most other race events there are "Corner Workers", these folks are big help when the HANS Device gets caught on the cage.

Obviously in rally we are on our own.

In my opinion, NOT having that hook at the top of your HNR is a big safety advantage.

[RRR_K2]

Our RWV roll last year, we ended up upsidedown. The first thing I did (amazingly) was to release the HANS from the helmet. The helmet then got stuck when I tried to get out and it took forever to undo the helmet strap so I could get out and leave the helmet in the car. It just was where I was trying to crawl out of the car that caused the helmet to catch. If I had been an little more patient and moved a couple of inches, I think the helmet would have come out on my head no problems. But no real problems with the HANS.
I didn't have any problems getting out, though I left my HANS attached. I think you're actually better off leaving it attached.

I've been wearing a HANS for five years, and I practiced getting in and out a few times before my first event with it. Now, I don't even notice it's on, and moving with it has become second nature. Like Ben said, in a "quick exit" situation it helps to be calm and think about how you're getting out. Heck, it helps to be calm in general in such a situation... :rolleyes:

[heymagic]

It should be pointed out that at most other race events there are "Corner Workers", these folks are big help when the HANS Device gets caught on the cage.

Obviously in rally we are on our own.

In my opinion, NOT having that hook at the top of your HNR is a big safety advantage.

That POS HANS device..I heard the other day it was responsible for the Lindbergh kidnapping...

[Eric Burmeister]

I didn't have any problems getting out, though I left my HANS attached.

...I practiced getting in and out a few times before my first event with it.

Upside down? In a ditch? With a buddy beside you? If you practiced that, you're pretty hard core! :)

[bentmettle]

Upside down? In a ditch? With a buddy beside you? If you practiced that, you're pretty hard core! :)

Ha. If I could find a car to use, it would be interesting to build a rollover simulator to let people practice egress.

The DoD has HEAT systems -
http://www.mccoy.army.mil/vtriad_online/07132007/Humvee_rollover_course.htm

It let's soldiers practice scenarios involving leaving unusual attitudes, removing passengers from the vehicle, etc.


One thing I thought about tonight- we were upside down and in the car for a full minute. No cars stopped for us that I recall. Did the photographers that were near us send them on? Were we so far ahead of the next car that we'd put more than a minute between them and us? We were fine, but we certainly weren't displaying any kind of OK until we were out of the car....

[granthughes]

I love that video!!! We watched the post roll mayhem twice. I think I remember once someone telling me that if you find yourself on the lid, unbuckle one at a time. I might be imagining it though. Still good for some laughs yet a total bummer regardless.

[Lancia037Rally]

One thing I thought about tonight- we were upside down and in the car for a full minute. No cars stopped for us that I recall. Did the photographers that were near us send them on?

Photogs were pretty lame and wouldn't have even known if we were injured. Was frustrating seeing their yellow vest outside the car but not yanking on a door to get it open.


Were we so far ahead of the next car that we'd put more than a minute between them and us? We were fine, but we certainly weren't displaying any kind of OK until we were out of the car....

Doubtful since it was near the beginning of the stage.

[Lancia037Rally]

Dave, what was the device hung up on?

Don't know. Harnesses? Main hoop? Seat? Think I remember having to unbuckle from helmet from HANS to move at all.

Most comical rollover I've been a part of was rolling onto roof on hillside w/ no trees and 3 feet of snow at Rally Quebec. Car is sliding on roof like toboggan and driver is sawing at the wheel like it was doing something while wheels were pointed skyward. Finally came to rest a bottom of hill against a tree but all windows (rear was broken) were undersnow so difficult to see and determine which direction to dig out.

[ihbobry]

The early R3 units had that same (as HANS Device) "hook" at the top of the device when it first got it's SFI 38.1 certification. A year later they re-certified the R3 device without the "hook". Now all Safety Solutions HNRs come without a "hook" like what HANS Device has.

All of the above devices you wear like a very small lightweight backpack. They are always going to travel with you. Also, all of the above units have quick release tethers system included.

Umm...we are talking an emergency situation not just getting out of the car. Maybe it was my unfamiliarity with it, but then again I tested all day @ Tim O's 5 days before ... and had been in and out of the car about 20 times that day with all of the starts and stops of the event...

But when I had to get out in a hurry (after an exciting no brakes, rear diff explodes on tarmac section of road downshift high speed "cruise" through the finish control of Concord Pond) I got very hung uptrying to make a fast break back up the hill to get our time while Allen figured out what the heck just happened.

Hans/Hutchins whatever...added equipment is going to be in the way no matter what.

btw I like my Hybrid rage

[ihbobry]

The rally car is relatively spacious compared to something like a stock car.

.

But Matt some obvious ergonomic differences they may get in and out of a car no more then 3 times during an event, 2 heats and main @ most local tracks...ok 4 if they have some hot laps, they also don't have fire extigushers, co-driver kit, 2 large books, water bottles tucked away, and they tend to get in and out alone...

That said, I wish I was as tucked in as a guy in a Modified until I realize I too may need to get out upside down in a ditch with glass and doors pinned shut...

ps :Mr. Shindle PM me with address info, never saw ya out of the car this weekend, sorry...

[RRR_K2]

they also don't have fire extigushers, co-driver kit, 2 large books, water bottles tucked away, and they tend to get in and out alone...
They also have removable steering wheels, which most rally cars don't. ;)

When I ran a few roundy-round races for a guy last year he couldn't believe it that I could climb in and out of the car without taking off the steering wheel. :p

[Lancia037Rally]

Just to clarify, the problem I encountered was while inverted and attempting to move after releasing harnesses. Never had any issues getting in or out of car w/ HANS on while the cars have been right side up.

[Safe Drives]

That POS HANS device..I heard the other day it was responsible for the Lindbergh kidnapping...

Really... Oh I'll have to use that one in my next "Stir the Pot" thread...;)



Umm...we are talking an emergency situation not just getting out of the car.

btw I like my Hybrid rage


Thank you again for that order Bernie!

[hoche]

I've been using my HANS for three years now, both rallying and at the track. I'm so used to it that occasionally I forget I have it on. I've even done the equivalent of the hunt-for-eyeglasses trick with it, where after hanging around waiting for our check-in time at an ATC I go to get my helmet and HANS and find the helmet but can't find the HANS. After rummaging around, eventually it dawns on me that I'm still wearing it.

As for getting out of a car with it after a rollover, well, this year I've rolled twice. Once we ended up on our lid with the driver's door wedged. Had to crawl out my side (I was co-driving). I don't remember it snagging on anything. In fact, if I remember correctly it wasn't until several minutes later, after we'd both gotten out of the car and I'd run up the road to put up a triangle that I realized I was still wearing both my HANS and helmet.

The second time was a pretty spectacular head-scratching "how'd we do that?" sort of crash. That time we ping-ponged through several trees and ended up on our side. Once again, getting out was pretty straightforward once we figured out which end was up. Neither of us had problems.

No injuries either time.

[dazed driver]

They also have removable steering wheels, which most rally cars don't. ;)

When I ran a few roundy-round races for a guy last year he couldn't believe it that I could climb in and out of the car without taking off the steering wheel. :p

Could be due to the average nascar driver size :eek:

ok, maybe not all of them...

[dazed driver]

Hey I just had an idea. I suppose you could take a shell, cage it, put the full rally cockpit in, stick it on a rotisserie, and then get your driver/codriver in it, then spin it a few times and let them climb out ;)

[RRR_K2]

Hey I just had an idea. I suppose you could take a shell, cage it, put the full rally cockpit in, stick it on a rotisserie, and then get your driver/codriver in it, then spin it a few times and let them climb out ;)
Maybe we should talk to Tim about adding that to school? ;)

[bentmettle]

Hey I just had an idea. I suppose you could take a shell, cage it, put the full rally cockpit in, stick it on a rotisserie, and then get your driver/codriver in it, then spin it a few times and let them climb out ;)

See the prior link I posted to something just like that...

[rightseat]

how hard would it be to find a wrecked rally car to serve as a trainer? :confused:;) A bit of Sawzall work and you'd have just the passenger cell, which could easily be equipped with outdated seats and belts.

set it up on a trailer w/rotisserie mount, and charge teams $25 to give them the "tumble-dry-and-then-get-out" treatment (for their own good of course) "How many rolls you want, boys??!!"



I had to wiggle legs-first out the mail-slot side window of a Fiat X1/9 that leapt a banking at Sawmill/STPR and landed on its roof. Dang window opening was so small I had to take my helmet off so that speccies who were hauling on my legs could quit strangling me. After that, I swore to only rally in cars with nice big windows.

[BenSlocum]

I swore to only rally in cars with nice big windows.

The size of a car's window opening is relative to it's beginning size, the position of the car, and the level the roof is smashed down...

[granthughes]

That's a new classic video Matt!
My two favorite quotes, "Uggh, I'm on top of you." and "Mother****er I hate this ****ing sport!"
Hope you get it back together in time for Ojibwe!!!

[dazed driver]

We tested the theory a bit... no seat rails yet... but ill get them in soon ;)

http://i86.photobucket.com/albums/k118/T_vonderau/IMG_1093.jpg
http://i86.photobucket.com/albums/k118/T_vonderau/IMG_1094.jpg
http://i86.photobucket.com/albums/k118/T_vonderau/IMG_1095.jpg

[RadioRobert]

Always test your equipment before the race ! Back in the 70s I was in Denver and one of the people at the Alfa Romeo dealership raced on weekends. He had gotten a new helmet ,one that covered the lower jaw which was new at that time. Wanting to test it before the race he put it on after work and drove around Denver to check it out .He was stopped not once but three times by police !! He had to go through the whole explaination 3 times !!

[Mad Mike]

I might add that no experiences shared here have included an active fire or submerged rally car. Either of these situations is guaranteed to reduce the time spent making a lucid decision about how best to escape the car and each add to the increased risk of serious injury or death if an exit is significantly delayed.

I've not used any manner of any HNR yet since I've not competed in almost three years but I'm still not looking forward to the day I'm forced to wear one. But that's just my opinion regarding my own neck ...

[Hinkelstein]

If I had not worn a HANS this weekend, my neck would probably have snapped when we rolled this Friday.

I remember long discussions about HANS devices in Rally with people, and the cons usually are 1. you might get trapped in the car or have difficulty exiting the car 2. HANS are made for frontal impact more than for rolling.

This was my first crash with a HANS, and I must say that one thing I remember most about this crash was how my head was caught by the HANS each time my head changed direction. We rolled about 8 times, so I had enough time to notice that. So argument 2 is debunked.

After the crash, I undid the seat belt, plonked down (we were upside down), and started kicking the door open. I didn't even notice the HANS until I ran uphill with the triangle. Argument 1 also debunked, as far as I'm concerned.

IMO, some type of H&N system is a must. I won't rally without it anymore.

[flatOVERcrest]

After our two accidents in Canada and Minnesota it took me a very long time to get out of the car (3 minutes at Baie and over 2 minutes at Ojibwe), but it was more a combination of factors (hurt at Baie, after trying couple times I finally realized I needed spectators to pull me out of the car), together with mild obstruction from the Hans while getting out, when the car was upside down and simply the fact that if I don't see fire I just take my time to get out of the car after big accidents.
Ken is amazingly fast in getting out, so I just give him the ok sign, before he sneaks out and I take my time.
I suspect Travis is very quick too, as every time we always see him first (Maine and Colorado 06, 100AW 09) and never Edstrom. Must be a driver thing.

However they were both accidents where Hans saved our lives or at least prevented very severe injuries. No questions about the Hans with this competitor, during testing, shakedowns or stage.

[MRRACING]

try using one of these f***ing things when you have a neck like me...
I cant get my helmet to fit all the way down because of the hans...

[Bruce Beauvais]

[QUOTE=Lancia037Rally;316428]Photogs were pretty lame and wouldn't have even known if we were injured. Was frustrating seeing their yellow vest outside the car but not yanking on a door to get it open./QUOTE]

What?? And miss the next shot?