Signs between Flying Finish and Stop Control

[Bjorn240]

In the Swedish championship, each stage has the following three signs placed in order on both right and left hand sides of the road, between the flying finish and stop controls, to indicate a need for slowing.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a9/1132_1-3.svg

In Sweden, these signs mean "Slow for level crossing" and are commonly used road signs. Do you think adding these signs would help with slowing cars coming into the stop control, especially in instances where someone misses the red finish board or the red finish board is missing?

This video, starting at 2:36 shows the car coming through the yellow and red finish boards, and then into the control.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QuNRlwqb9fw&feature=related

- Christian

[jandreini]

I like it, but only if a standardized sign, available from RA, is used at all national events. Of course, we would pay for the signs; I'm not asking for a freebie here.

[C_Eixen]

First lets get reflectorized yellow and red finish signs on both sides of the road, then we can add post-finish signs.

[johnhuebbe]

First lets get reflectorized yellow and red finish signs on both sides of the road, then we can add post-finish signs.

I'd agree.

[Audi UrQ]

The video also showed red finish time control boards on both sides of the road, as well as a red mark on the second to last tree on the right hand side.

[Bruce]

First lets get reflectorized yellow and red finish signs on both sides of the road, then we can add post-finish signs.

We also have to make sure those yellow signs are actually put up...and REMAIN up for the whole field. There's usually somebody near the red FF sign(s), but sometimes the yellow FF sign goes down and nobody notices.

Bruce

[Bjorn240]

Wait, I'm confused....

Are the finish boards not on both sides of the road consistently? I have to say in 11 years of rallying, I don't think I've ever seen a case where there wasn't a finish board on the right side of the road. (Yes, I've seen one knocked down...)

[C_Eixen]

They're always on the right side...rarely on the left. SnoDrift was the first event where I remember seeing boards on both sides, with reflective tape so they stood out in the dark.

[ihbobry]

Wait, I'm confused....

Are the finish boards not on both sides of the road consistently?

Nope.

The signs you talk about above are similar to what you may find on the edge of the road where there is a culver or hidden abutment. To me it would indicate ][ ahead not what your seeing in Swedish events.

[Bjorn240]

Agree that should be step one then.

[Bruce]

Wait, I'm confused....

Are the finish boards not on both sides of the road consistently? I have to say in 11 years of rallying, I don't think I've ever seen a case where there wasn't a finish board on the right side of the road. (Yes, I've seen one knocked down...)

Christian, you spend too much time at the pointy end of the field. :) Occasionally, the yellow finish board gets knocked down, giving no warning for the red board, and effectively lengthening the shutdown distance. The RED one is always up because there's somebody there who can watch it. The YELLOW one can be out of sight of the flying finish.

The idea of using signs on both sides is a good one. Depending on the road, all attention might be on the left side at the wrong moment. IIRC, LSPR doubles their flying finish signs as well.

Bruce

[C_Eixen]

I didn't notice double boards when I checked a couple stages of in car, but they could have been down.

One thing I did notice is that LSPR used sandwich boards placed on the edge of the road. While these are easy to put up when knocked over, they are more likely to be knocked over.

Having the sign attached to a tall wooden stake would allow them to put the sign a little farther off the road, and also get the sign up in the air, where it's easier to see. The downside is if somebody hits the stake, it's going to be tough to get the sign back up.

[rightseat]

thumbs up for yello and red finish boards posted both sides of the road--just that much less likely to be missed by eyes on either side of the car.

after all, who says a rally car is actually going to finish on the right side of the road anyway?

[jimmy]

This is a classic case of why drivers and co-drivers need to come out and work some events (of any sanctioning body).......

sorta <g>

press on,

[Adrian Wintle]

I didn't notice double boards when I checked a couple stages of in car, but they could have been down.

One thing I did notice is that LSPR used sandwich boards placed on the edge of the road. While these are easy to put up when knocked over, they are more likely to be knocked over.

Having the sign attached to a tall wooden stake would allow them to put the sign a little farther off the road, and also get the sign up in the air, where it's easier to see. The downside is if somebody hits the stake, it's going to be tough to get the sign back up.

Setting up boards (or arrows) is very dependent on the terrain of the event. Some events have nice earth into which you can hammer a stake at the exact position you would like, while others (most of the ones I work) seem to have rocks exactly where you want to put your stake, requiring compromise in location (arrows in particular) or board mounting.

Adrian

[Paul Jaeger]

Setting up boards (or arrows) is very dependent on the terrain of the event. Some events have nice earth into which you can hammer a stake at the exact position you would like, while others (most of the ones I work) seem to have rocks exactly where you want to put your stake, requiring compromise in location (arrows in particular) or board mounting.

Adrian

Amen Brother!! It is very frustrating to try to pound stakes into any ground at STPR.. I love that the organizors lately have been putting up the stakes ahead of time and the crews only have to put the signs on the stakes. Now all we have to do is get the locals to leave them alone until the rally is over.

[psoper]

And when the "locals" are cattle, its even harder to tell them not to kick over stakes!

[Don Kennedy]

This is a classic case of why drivers and co-drivers need to come out and work some events (of any sanctioning body).......

sorta <g>

press on,

No sorta about it.

[Don Kennedy]

Setting up boards (or arrows) is very dependent on the terrain of the event. Some events have nice earth into which you can hammer a stake at the exact position you would like, while others (most of the ones I work) seem to have rocks exactly where you want to put your stake, requiring compromise in location (arrows in particular) or board mounting.

Adrian

All the more reason for signs on both sides of the road. Very good suggestions IMHO.

[seagull]

One thing I did notice is that LSPR used sandwich boards placed on the edge of the road. While these are easy to put up when knocked over, they are more likely to be knocked over.

Having spent some time in the U.P., I suspect I know why. The areas the LSPR runs in are, geologically, an old volcanic rift zone that was then scoured clean by glaciers. In many places the top soil is less than a foot thick and has solid basalt underneath. Driving a stake into the ground is sometimes impossible unless it has a diamond point on one end and a pneumatic drill on the other. ;)

[Phlyan Pan]

I think the finish should be boards on both sides and something strung across the road about 6-8 feet in the air with streamers and pennants hanging down from it.

Like this: http://www.onlinesports.com/images/cp-1260xxxx.gif

It would be nigh on impossible to knock down, and should be pretty easy to see.

[BarefootVirgin]

Yes but moving controls would take much more time in that case. How about something as simple as a fold up metal frame that kind of makes a triangle and does not need to be pounded into the ground. The signs could be zip tied to these frames durring an event and they would be heavy enough not to be blown over by rally cars passing at speed.

[Paul Jaeger]

Well after STPR, I have some input. We ran the finish controls on stages 1,5, 9 and 12. At the end of stage 1, there apparantly was a discrepancy betwween the route book and the notes as everyone complained that the notes ended before the finish, causing some interesting moments for several crews. When setting up the stage we put the signs on the organizor's preplaced stakes. We had only one yellow and one red checkered flag. The yellow board was on the outside of a curve and we made sure to anchor it well. After about a third of the field came through, the sign was knocked down by the softball sized rocks that all the cars were throwing. We asked our flying finish crew if they could replace it but it was much too dangerous a location to try that. Along with the notes problem, this made some exciting times at the stop line, since we were hidden around another corner.

At the end of stages 9 and 12 (same place) we had a difficult time mounting the signs on the preplaced stakes and tried to secure them better by driving additional stakes. We splintered two stakes we had earlier removed from previous stages, trying to drive them into the PA bedrock.

When we went to retrieve the yellow siogn at the end of stage 12 it was gone. WE think it was probably swiped by spectators driving out of the stage, but if it disappeared during the running of the stage, we apologoze.

In summary, I think we should be displaying dual signs at flying finiish and the yellow board location, but competitors need to realize that it is difficult to install signs and keep them in place at many locations. As for the overhead penants accross the road, forget about it. Tall emergency vehicles with big anttenas travel the stages before they open and after they close and would tear down most installations like that.

[Bruce]

Various events have various methods for supporting control signs. The holders Rally Colorado uses have heavy steel bases, and - while awkward to carry around - they hold signs securely even in the wind. Colorado also has the problem of driving stakes into bedrock.

The ones at Ojibwe Forests are similar, but made out of PVC. They sometimes need rocks or sandbags to hold them in place.

Both of those solutions require some flat space to set them on - which ain't always available. I've seen rebar and those heavy black paper clips used effectively, too.

Missing flying finish signs can be a dangerous situation.

Bruce

[Don Kennedy]

Why does this seem to be more of a problem now than years ago? Is it paritally because it always happened but the teams didn't need to be catered to as much in the past with everything neat and perfect? Just questioning.
BTW, I'm not saying it's not a potential dangerous situation. I'm not trying to make light of the issue.

[Joe Average]

Based on the info given by the Co-Driver on the stage shown, the least he could have done is say, "Finish Brake", at the finish board.
That's what I do on every stage. Seems to work.
It's not rocket science.

Sean Gallagher

[ihbobry]

Why does this seem to be more of a problem now than years ago?

I don't think it's more of a problem


Is it paritally because it always happened but the teams didn't need to be catered to as much in the past with everything neat and perfect? Just questioning.


I would say yes. With the caveat that since things run well and uniformly almost everywhere, no mater the sanctioning; people are over thinking the whole thing.

2 sign boards would be nice. One is good. Location should be confirmed on NFP or recce. Placement should be made with care and consideration for visability. Not so much for the teams but the workers as it's their ass that will be on the hood of the car if we come into the control too hot due to a down or missing sign.

I was in a car once that was rear ended in a finish control because of this situation. I didn't understand why the young lady was running into the bush with my time card until I heard the woosh and bang. We did ok and so did our car but she got a scare and the car behind lost an intercooler and frt cover.

[jimmy]

This is a reason I always tell new workers to look out for their own safety first.

Also, when co-driving, I tell my driver to watch his mirrors, and be ready to move, fast.

When working a finish, I tell the drivers to be ready to move, fast, if a car is coming in too hot... (and I'm ready to dive)


I was in a car once that was rear ended in a finish control because of this situation. I didn't understand why the young lady was running into the bush with my time card until I heard the woosh and bang. We did ok and so did our car but she got a scare and the car behind lost an intercooler and frt cover.

press on,

[Bruce Beauvais]

Why does this seem to be more of a problem now than years ago?

Perhaps because of notes? In the old days, the finish was milaged and the codriver had a
ready reference. I'm a certified greybeard and never run on notes so am not sure how well the finish is listed in notes.
A similar issue has come up with "offs". The finish is told "So-and-so" is off. We ask where and the crew has no clue other than a page number or loose description ( it was right after 5 right tightens). As ew at the controls don't have note, we're just as clueless where the incident is.

[flatOVERcrest]

Perhaps because of notes? In the old days, the finish was milaged and the codriver had a
ready reference.

It's possible. Without notes you are looking basically for the finish to cross, that's it, nothing else to do. With notes, codriver is focused on those, looking 70% of the time on the book and the driver listening to the notes and focused on the fastest line thru the corners.
Out of 11 proper stages last weekend I probably only saw 4 or 5 finish boards. The rest I was too busy calling the notes and with my eyes on the book. I'm sure they were there, and I called them, I just didn't see them. Two boards one on the left one on the right of course would be better.

3-2-1 boards from the FF to the Stop control would be great to have, but at the end of the day a smart(er) placement of the FFs is all is needed to avoid end of the stage disasters.

[Jeff Hagan]

This is a reason I always tell new workers to look out for their own safety first.

Also, when co-driving, I tell my driver to watch his mirrors, and be ready to move, fast.

When working a finish, I tell the drivers to be ready to move, fast, if a car is coming in too hot... (and I'm ready to dive)
I marshal at the track as well. I've picked up a habit from other marshals: especially when I'm working with a newer marshal, I'll casually ask "if that car were to lose it right now, where would you run?" How quickly they answer tells me how closely they paid attention at the morning meeting when the corner captain told them to keep their escape route in mind.

I think it's a good idea to drill this into finish control marshals as well, though I'm sure that some experienced marshals (like you) do this already.


Perhaps because of notes? In the old days, the finish was milaged and the codriver had a
ready reference. I'm a certified greybeard and never run on notes so am not sure how well the finish is listed in notes.
Depends on the team and/or the notes. I'll typically transpose the mileage for the finish from the route book into my stage notes if it isn't given in the notes in the first place.


A similar issue has come up with "offs". The finish is told "So-and-so" is off. We ask where and the crew has no clue other than a page number or loose description ( it was right after 5 right tightens). As ew at the controls don't have note, we're just as clueless where the incident is.
I don't get that. It's never been that hard for me to take a quick look at the odo. Even if there's some tricky instruction just after the off, you can check your distance after that and have something close to the right value.

A co-driver should be able to give at least an approximate location, especially since if all else fails, you can use a caution or a junction as a reference and all of those will be in the route book that you've got right at hand for the transit. This might not be especially accurate, but it should at least narrow down the location to the incident to, say, a quarter or so of the stage in most situations.

Edit: and Jemba notes typically give the distance for every line in the notes. Something that I'll do sometimes is put a quick mark in the notes at the location of the off, either an asterisk or something like "5 OK". Then, when I get to the finish, telling the marshal the location of the off is just a matter of flipping back to the note, checking the distance at the beginning of the line, and adding a distance that seems reasonable from the start of the line to the off. You'll normally be accurate to within a tenth or two of a mile that way.

[jandreini]

To rescue this thead from rampant hijack, I'd reply that Sno*Drift will almost certainly try Christian's suggestion. It is easy to do, and it can't hurt.

[Bjorn240]

Why does this seem to be more of a problem now than years ago? Is it paritally because it always happened but the teams didn't need to be catered to as much in the past with everything neat and perfect? Just questioning.
BTW, I'm not saying it's not a potential dangerous situation. I'm not trying to make light of the issue.
I don't think it's a bigger issue now than it was years ago, except the cars are going quicker, so longer shut-down areas are needed.

However, at one event this year, we had a short shut-down and MJ missed the finish board and came in very hot to the control. (We didn't miss the finish board, and Travis was hard on the brakes from the finish line and we still came in too hot for comfort.) And this seems dangerous from a _worker_ perspective (look, we take our risks willingly so I have less sympathy for us). The three boards could provide a longer-duration warning to slow than a single red sign board. And if the workers setting up the signs realize that they can't reasonably fit all three between the flying finish and the stop control, that might be an indication to move the finish up.

All in all, I agree this 99% falls on the co-driver to say "Whoa!" but I thought I'd bring it up for discussion. Seemed a good idea.

[flatOVERcrest]

I don't think it's a bigger issue now than it was years ago, except the cars are going quicker, so longer shut-down areas are needed.

However, at one event this year, we had a short shut-down and MJ missed the finish board and came in very hot to the control. (We didn't miss the finish board, and Travis was hard on the brakes from the finish line and we still came in too hot for comfort.) And this seems dangerous from a _worker_ perspective (look, we take our risks willingly so I have less sympathy for us). The three boards could provide a longer-duration warning to slow than a single red sign board. And if the workers setting up the signs realize that they can't reasonably fit all three between the flying finish and the stop control, that might be an indication to move the finish up.

All in all, I agree this 99% falls on the co-driver to say "Whoa!" but I thought I'd bring it up for discussion. Seemed a good idea.

It is a good idea, thanks for opening this thread.
Question for the rulemakers: Is there something in the organizer's book that require a minimum specified "X" distance between the FF and the STOP control?
If yes, wouldn't it be ideal for the people that run "zero" car to double check that "X" distance at every stage finish?
There is a very severe penalty for jump starting a Stage Start in RA (1 minute) and once I inquired why such a severe penalty and was told "to preserve worker's safety", which I agree with 100%.
Then FF to STOP control distance should require a VERY careful scrutiny as well, as it's actually more dangerous for the workers (thru the FF, at one-ten, on a gravel covered road or on ice with no studs, will take a while to stop..).
Thanks.

[RichardM]

By the way, you young guys (that's both Christian and Alex :) ) should realize that having too short of a shut down is not a new problem. I once blew through a timing control in a SAAB 96. Not that I was going fast compared to you guys but the distance between the finish line and the timing table was too short. Or my brakes were completely faded. Of course, this discussion is about the driver and co-driver completely missing the finish line. I hope the co-driver knows better where they are but more visual clues is a very good idea.

[ihbobry]

All in all, I agree this 99% falls on the co-driver to say "Whoa!" but I thought I'd bring it up for discussion. Seemed a good idea.

When I wrote people are over thinking the whole thing I was refering to flags and banners etc.. I'm not sold on the signs you suggest just from the standpoint that in a 15 stage event thats 90 more signs being put up per event, we have already identified it's hard to get even one finish board up @ times and then as you said 99% falls on the co-driver.

The next thing I half expected to be suggested was to have a chequered flag being waved by someone in a reflective fluorecent suit while wearing a helmet with strobes on it. Sort of "r5 finish @ clown". :)

[AlanO]

Here's a guaranteed way to get drivers to stop.

http://www.autospies.com/images/users/omarrana/tamara_peta_images_main.jpg

[Adrian Wintle]

It is a good idea, thanks for opening this thread.
Question for the rulemakers: Is there something in the organizer's book that require a minimum specified "X" distance between the FF and the STOP control?
If yes, wouldn't it be ideal for the people that run "zero" car to double check that "X" distance at every stage finish?
There is a very severe penalty for jump starting a Stage Start in RA (1 minute) and once I inquired why such a severe penalty and was told "to preserve worker's safety", which I agree with 100%.
Then FF to STOP control distance should require a VERY careful scrutiny as well, as it's actually more dangerous for the workers (thru the FF, at one-ten, on a gravel covered road or on ice with no studs, will take a while to stop..).
Thanks.

It is very hard to put a minimum distance on a shut-down zone, because you would have to set it for the worst possible case (at the end of a mile-long straight on ice), which would be unrealistic for the majority of cases. Picking a length for a shutdown is defendent on a large number of conditions, including terrain, sightlines, road surface and condition, number of corners in the shudown area, safe places for the finish marshal, safe places for the control car/marshals, uphill or downhill, speed of the stage just before the finish, speed of the stage, are the rally cars likely to have brakes left when they arrive...

Adrian

[Bjorn240]

The Jemba system can recommend (does recommend) the minimum shut down distance for a given finish point.

[rightseat]

Have found that calling "FINISH and STOP" works pretty good, too. "Whoa" is for ponies, not rally drivers. ;)

+12345 on comment that short shutdowns (or worse, blind ones) are not exactly a new problem. It's a sporadic problem, but persistent.

[Jvimpty]

I'l add my 2 cents. MJ and I almost flattened some spectators and workers at Olympus due to a poorly set up FF.

I reviewed our incar and I called the finish, however the red FF board was behind a crest and the board that MJ saw was the (also red) start board from a previous running of the stage in the opposite direction. This start board was down the road another 200m or so, and despite repeating that we were done, there was no slowing MJ down: he saw the red board and "knew" he needed to race through it.

A similar issue happened at STPR waste management 1. I called the finish to Pat Moro, and looked up to see no signs present, so we continued at speed looking for the finish boards, in this case the boards were just placed further down the road....was exciting for us as I called the turn slightly late b/c I was looking for the finish boards.....

For the safety of the workers and volunteers there needs to be some sort of common sense applied. I don't want to see someone run over or hit b/c a sign was knocked over or misplaced, or another sign was not taken down.

It seems like an experienced 0 car should be able to look for these issues and get them fixed before a problem/incident occurs. A bulletin at the start of the stage that says FF moved, or FF difficult to see, is at this instruction/mileage/note would be very helpful to prevent similar issues.

Jeremy

[chmsam]

Nothing like working a FF, getting there with very little time to set up, and finding out that the stakes for the signs are all about 6 inches to 1 foot too short. Creativity is a beautiful thing but a budget that allows for a new piece of wood instead of finding out that someone used a bunch of broken stakes would be cool too.

And folks wonder why I carry around tent stakes, 550 paracord, tape, etc. when I'm working a rally... Next time I'll add about half a dozen 5 foot stakes to the gear.

"How does all of this rally stuff go on?"

"I have no idea. After more than 25 years, I have no idea..."

[Bruce]

While I think misplaced FF boards are fairly rare, it's disconcerting how many yellow FF boards go down during the running of a stage. At Nemadji yesterday, I had occasion to go thru the finish of a stage before 000. The yellow board - on a fairly sturdy support - had been RUN OVER during a previous running. It was out of sight of the finish crew, who - in their defense - were trying to shelter from a driving rain. The lead cars would certainly pick up on that, but it had to be down for at least SOME of the previous competitors, and that extra warning is important.

Visible locations, proper signage, sturdy supports, and maybe redundant signs (one on each side?) are the first things to address.

Bruce

[chmsam]

The most common problem I have seen is that the stales aren't stout enough or tall enough (like I said before). Add that to the fact that there's no back up to those two somewhat flimsy signs and that's the basis of the problem.

I think that even using something like reflective flagging tape would be a good idea. Even if the stuff is only a little over 1" wide a few wraps around a tree or post would be noticeable. Wrap up to three trees or stakes leading up to the yellow sign and even if it's down, the location should still be pretty clear and if it's mentioned in the supp's, route book, and notes, that should cover it. Just select a color that's visible in daylight too. Low tech, inexpensive, hard to go wrong.

Why not also get reflective count down numbers (3, 2, 1) leading up to the yellow and/or red signs? Easy to read in daylight or at night. If one or even more are missing it still gets the idea across (anybody got any old Burma Shave signs?).

Also, if the yellow and red signs had grommets at the top and bottom they could be tied to trees or stakes easily and that would make them harder to knock down or blow over.

[Bruce Perry]

In response to Alex "If yes, wouldn't it be ideal for the people that run "zero" car to double check that "X" distance at every stage finish?"

I agree.

I drive car 0 at STPR. I run the stage very quickly and make a judgement of each shutdown area. I have moved the finish control workers on a few occasions.

I get criticized occasionally for running so fast but I feel I do the job best when I am thinking like a rally driver and not a like a civilian.

Also, I give the novice worker, and novice spectator, a general look at what the competition cars are going to look like. I run mid pack stage times.

This is why RA highly suggests that a caged rallycar with licensed driver run car 0.

Bruce Perry
02 WRX car 0

[jimmy]

Agree w/ Bruce.

I've been told to run about 90% of speed for car 0.

Car 0 is the last set of eyes before the first competitor. We are checking for safety. We give speccies a feel for how fast the competitors will be running (so they move back). We finish just before the first car, so the course is secure. We make sure there is enough shut down room (yes, I have moved finishes) (yes, we make judgement mistakes - we are not quite as fast as Travis and Ken and ...).

A difference - we are running on the route book (not notes).

RA vets the driver & co-driver of car 0 for competancy (they should be experienced competitors).

I tell all 0 cars (000, 00, & 0) that their job is to finish (meaning that they had best not crash!).


In response to Alex "If yes, wouldn't it be ideal for the people that run "zero" car to double check that "X" distance at every stage finish?"

I agree.

I drive car 0 at STPR. I run the stage very quickly and make a judgement of each shutdown area. I have moved the finish control workers on a few occasions.

I get criticized occasionally for running so fast but I feel I do the job best when I am thinking like a rally driver and not a like a civilian.

Also, I give the novice worker, and novice spectator, a general look at what the competition cars are going to look like. I run mid pack stage times.

This is why RA highly suggests that a caged rallycar with licensed driver run car 0.

Bruce Perry
02 WRX car 0

press on,

[Bruce]

What Jimmy said. Anyone who criticized Car 0 speeds at STPR clearly has never read the Ops Manual and does not understand the roles of the lead cars.

Mr. Perry said it best - give them an idea of the speed of a rally car while making the last check of the course.

Bruce

[jandreini]

What Jimmy said. Anyone who criticized Car 0 speeds at STPR clearly has never read the Ops Manual and does not understand the roles of the lead cars.

Mr. Perry said it best - give them an idea of the speed of a rally car while making the last check of the course.

Bruce

I always tell '0' to run at mid-pack to bogey, but never run beyond your comfort level. Nothing screws up a rally like having assorted zero cars going off & creating delays. Zero cars have a job; that job does not include "racing for free". While Jimmy, Alan, & Bruce are all correct in their assessments of the duties of Car 0, I believe the drivers of the various zero cars must always remember that, first & foremost, they must carry out their assigned tasks without drama, so that the competition may take place.

[flatOVERcrest]

I drive car 0 at STPR. I run the stage very quickly and make a judgement of each shutdown area. I have moved the finish control workers on a few occasions.

I get criticized occasionally for running so fast but I feel I do the job best when I am thinking like a rally driver and not a like a civilian.

Also, I give the novice worker, and novice spectator, a general look at what the competition cars are going to look like. I run mid pack stage times.

This is why RA highly suggests that a caged rallycar with licensed driver run car 0.

Bruce Perry
02 WRX car 0

I agree that the Zero needs to be driven at fast speed. Middle of the pack stages times seem right, for all the reasons that BruceP mentions.
Also, there are things that can be seen only at a fairly quick pace, like if the distance between FF and Stop is appropriate, or if a patch of slippery has developed between the recce and the Rally (like it was noted by the Zero car and passed on to competitors via bullettin at stage start, on SS4, braking zone just before the Pastrana08 corner).
By the way, sorry for the off topic, but I must mention awesome job by the Zeros at both Olympus and Oregon (Lee Sorenson) and STPR (Bruce Perry).

[flatOVERcrest]

I believe the drivers of the various zero cars must always remember that, first & foremost, they must carry out their assigned tasks without drama, so that the competition may take place.

I agree with that too and that's why Zero duties should always be run by very experienced competitors.

[ihbobry]

... at STPR waste management 1. I called the finish to Pat Moro, and looked up to see no signs present, so we continued at speed looking for the finish boards,

With all respect, (cause you know I do) I think you have this backward. This is your teams issue. If on a SSS you make a call and there is no lift I would be a triffle peevd @ the driver for not slowing but then pissed @ myself for missing the call.

So maybe there is merit to Christian's idea... but, it goes back to the point of how much should be done for the team, and when should they assume responsability for themselves, the spectators, and workers and lift? Imagine if we had more than pride on the line in rally would anyone in a top car pick the foot up off the gas?

[Jvimpty]

With all respect, (cause you know I do) I think you have this backward. This is your teams issue. If on a SSS you make a call and there is no lift I would be a triffle peevd @ the driver for not slowing but then pissed @ myself for missing the call.

So maybe there is merit to Christian's idea... but, it goes back to the point of how much should be done for the team, and when should they assume responsability for themselves, the spectators, and workers and lift? Imagine if we had more than pride on the line in rally would anyone in a top car pick the foot up off the gas?

Bernie- I agree the fact that I was late to call a turn that was supposed to be after the flying finish is completely my fault. I was heads up looking for the finish as I stop my watch when we hit the red board.

However I don't think that it should be the competitors resposibility to figure out where the FF is: it should be at the location described in the notes/route book. If it needs to be moved or has been set up in the wrong spot, this should be addressed by either relocating the board or informing competitors of the change via bulletin at the ATC or earlier.


Mis-placed or missing FF signage is a very serious matter. This is *the signage* that signals our transition from a "closed" stage to a world where we are looking for and expect to see cars, people etc along the road. This thread has some good thoughts on how to make sure it is implemented properly: Zero car, Signs mounted to trees, multiple signs etc.

The signs that Christian shows in the original post would be great, I know Matthew and I would rather not see another close call like we saw at Olympus. At the very least a clearly visible (at speed) sign on both sides of the road affixed to something that will not be blown over/knocked over easily.

Jeremy

[jimmy]

At the risk of slight thread drift, I think that this topic started because the finish of SS1 at STPR was different in the notes than it was in the route book. If so, this is a problem because nobody proofs those 2 books against each other.

The Jemba guys usually get a preliminary copy of the route book to make the notes from. Nobody from the orgainizing side sees the notes, so nobody verifies the notes against the final route book (only competitors see the 2 books, and that is during recce, and the signs may not be there then).

Christian's idea of additional signage/bannering serves to wake up the drivers (it doesn't really solve a discrepancy if there is one)....

No way car 0/00/000 could have caught this.

I don't have a solution.

press on,

[flatOVERcrest]

However I don't think that it should be the competitors resposibility to figure out where the FF is: it should be at the location described in the notes/route book. If it needs to be moved or has been set up in the wrong spot, this should be addressed by either relocating the board or informing competitors of the change via bulletin at the ATC or earlier.

Absolutely. I think tho that since stagenotes and recce have been implemented we have failed to somehow sync the "event" that runs on route book to the "event" that is using stagenotes (I'm talking about the SAME event). I recall couple years ago, during a National Rally, mentioning to the clerk of the course that the route book tulip didn't match the Jemba notes for that particular junction and his reply to me was that he didn't know anything nor cared about the Jemba notes.. :( Not good.
Here, maybe to have the event organizers getting somehow more familiar with the notes would be a starting point? What if we get the Zero car to run on Jembas (which is what the majority of competitors are using at RA events anyway) instead of route books, could the issue of the finish SS1 at STPR have been prevented?
That "into Left3 opens and tightens..and sorry Ken, I'm out of notes in the book.." without seeing the FF yet, wasn't too pleasant of a situation when you are going flat out..



Mis-placed or missing FF signage is a very serious matter. This is *the signage* that signals our transition from a "closed" stage to a world where we are looking for and expect to see cars, people etc along the road. This thread has some good thoughts on how to make sure it is implemented properly: Zero car, Signs mounted to trees, multiple signs etc.

Couldn't have said it better. This is one serious problem. 10, 15 years ago no worries..but today attention to safety in our sport has become the top priority, hans't it? I'd really love to see a rule revision or implementation before NEFR, based on what originally CE suggested on this thread.

[flatOVERcrest]

No way car 0/00/000 could have caught this.

I don't have a solution.

press on,


What if we get the Zero car to run on Jembas (which is what the majority of competitors are using at RA events anyway) instead of route books, could the issue of the finish SS1 at STPR have been prevented?
Sorry Jimmy, we were both typing our respective messages at the same time.

[Bruce]

If the zero car runs on Jembas, the codriver will be unable to do much of his job...looking for problems along the course...as he will have his head down. Further, while zero should be driving quickly, I would submit that using Jembas might get them going TOO fast to do their jobs. You would also have to add one more talent to the skillset already required in this car.

That said, checking the location of the flying finish in the notes could be added to zero's checklist without much strain.

Bruce

[ihbobry]

First of all the zero car needs to run Jemba or organizer supplied notes if that is what is being used. To have an event where that is in play and they are running route book is the stupidest thing I have heard in a while. I can't even comprehend such a thing. That nobody from the orgainizing side sees the notes, and nobody verifies the notes against the final route book is insane!!!!!!!! And of course, all the zero's need to confirm and or correct placement of signs.

Jeremy- I understand better what you meant, but still I rather loose 5 seconds then hit the car in a control or worse (note I mentioned before that it happened to me). I have never seen a set of Jemba without the run-out past the FF annotated as part of the notes. Movement of any control MUST always be communicated, to not do so is to perhaps kill someone. But, I can say I have not that lapse happen and when working an event I made sure every one knew a control moved.

Alex- rather then more rules and signs,... when in doubt lift. (not being a wise ass but really with the enlightend and expanded world of rally (in NA) there really is still little @ stake). If your out of notes should you not slow down? (heck you could be two pages ahead as easily as the sign is down)

[jimmy]

Hmmm.

The rally is organized by an independent group (IG) and writes it's own route book. Team pays entry fee to that group. Route corrections are made by that group (& RA) (kind of a tricky relation among IG, RA, and the Stewards).

P-Sport is under contract to RA (and sub contracted from Jemba) to write the notes. Team pays fee to RA for the notes. Only P-Sport can change the notes (I changed one note, once, - as a notice - and got my *ss thoroughly reamed by Pete).

Independent group never sees the notes and has no control over them. Car 0 "works" for IG.

How are we going to make this work for proofing notes (much less changing/modifying them)? Car 0 can't run both routes and notes. Bruce Davis and I were once a second car 0, running notes (when we couldn't run because of the idiot "wing" rule) - that's the only time I know that it has been done.

Thoughts?

press on,

[Lee S]

By the way, sorry for the off topic, but I must mention awesome job by the Zeros at both Olympus and Oregon (Lee Sorenson) and STPR (Bruce Perry).

I'm sure Bruce P appreciates the kind words as much as I do. Thanks.

This is an excellent discussion. Probably one of the better on this forum IMHO. And I agree with 99% of the comments and support two sets of signs (yellow & red) at the finish of each stage if it is possible. JB has already heard from me on the topic.

I can only speak about Olympus. Yes, in hind sight the red sign was not in the best place on Tahola West 1, but I had no trouble seeing it at the pace I was driving (mid-pack stage times). I was happy to see them move it for the second running. I am also happy that we are all here to be able to discuss the problem and recommend solutions to organizers and rule makers.

I also support comparing the Jamba notes to the Route Book, by having Car #0 running Jamba. Particularly if the event has no NFP or Recce. I think an experienced Car #0 team would have no problem handling this task.

I also support having checklists for the pace cars that include all banner and road marshal locations, but that is another topic for another time.

Lee Sorenson
Car #0
Team Fugawi?

[AlanO]

Jeremy- I understand better what you meant, but still I rather loose 5 seconds then hit the car in a control or worse (note I mentioned before that it happened to me). I have never seen a set of Jemba without the run-out past the FF annotated as part of the notes. Movement of any control MUST always be communicated, to not do so is to perhaps kill someone. But, I can say I have not that lapse happen and when working an event I made sure every one knew a control moved.
Yeah, Jemba provides a run-out, and we always have run-out in our own notes, but sometimes this isn't enough. I've blown through the finish in heavy dust without seeing the single red board, and on more than one occasion I've had to say "I'm out of notes" when the finish was moved several hundred meters down the road from where it was marked in the book/on recce.

Recently Ontario events started having signs with reflective tape on both sides of the road for the 100m marker and the flying finish on every stage. It really, really helps.


Alex- rather then more rules and signs,... when in doubt lift. (not being a wise ass but really with the enlightend and expanded world of rally (in NA) there really is still little @ stake)
There may be little publicity and even less prize money at stake, but that doesn't mean the desire to win is any less. Having said that, drivers do lift if they hear "I'm out of notes", but in my experience, usually those words are spoken just before the control is in sight, and then it's a frantic scramble to get the car slowed down. The "misplaced" finish tends to be just at that dangerous distance where the run-out notes end and before the driver has a chance to slow down.


(heck you could be two pages ahead as easily as the sign is down)
Unless you're a totally clueless co-driver, I'd say the odds are much greater that the sign is down vs. being two pages ahead and not realizing it.


(Aside: Alex, I have to disagree about giving car 0 the Jemba notes - as Bruce mentioned, car 0 should be checking for stage security - a "gravel crew" for all competitors would be ideal but there are hurdles for that)

[flatOVERcrest]

Only P-Sport can change the notes (I changed one note, once, - as a notice - and got my *ss thoroughly reamed by Pete).

Thoughts?

press on,

OK, then situations may be more complicated than we (competitors) really know.
I (competitor using Jembas) have no problem whatsoever in having an (experienced) competitor like Jimmy or Bruce Davis or Lee Sorenson or Bruce Perry or Dave Weiman or Christian Edstrom etc. changing a note (as a notice) while they are running Zero..but if there are other things that don't allow that to happen then it's a different story.
Back to the drawing board..

[ihbobry]

Hmmm.

The rally is organized by an independent group (IG) and writes it's own route book. Team pays entry fee to that group. Route corrections are made by that group (& RA) (kind of a tricky relation among IG, RA, and the Stewards).

P-Sport is under contract to RA (and sub contracted from Jemba) to write the notes. Team pays fee to RA for the notes. Only P-Sport can change the notes (I changed one note, once, - as a notice - and got my *ss thoroughly reamed by Pete).

Independent group never sees the notes and has no control over them. Car 0 "works" for IG.


Thoughts?

press on,

... a few thoughts then...

Loose the route book? (stages not transit)

Liability instantly shifts with the use of notes, why does an organizer issue a route book? Pride? Tradition? Ignorance? Arrogance? Ego? Habit?

Intergate the notes for transit into the Jemba book? Fewer books less cost?

If p-sport does not produce notes that day how can they or anyone else, bitch about amendments by the agents of the subscriber? The notes specifically state that conditions may have changed, is that not what we all hover around the boards before an event for???? To disallow changes puts the liability back on the organizer, then WTF are the notes good for from their point of view (other then to sell the entry?)?

Again this is being over wrought and over thought. When in doubt, lift the pedal.

To further refine it lets just put up signs...let the driver drive what he sees based on big yellow signs fer goodness sakes... "100 into sign, 200 into arrow, ..."

(maybe it's not good I am reading Hemmingway the past few days. :) )

EDIT:
Unless you're a totally clueless co-driver, I'd say the odds are much greater that the sign is down vs. being two pages ahead and not realizing it.


I agree, but turn 2 pages, realize it, go back catch up find the place, and finish...it's that easy bro... no? BTW have not had that happen yet but I can nightmare about it...

[rightseat]

so consensus seems to be "sure, add extra flying finish signs, just to be sure" and this isn't an insurmountable issue for organizers, stage crews, etc.

however, the emerging issue is potential discrepancy between route books and Jemba notes, particularly as regards shutdown distances. Having 0 double-check the Jembas doesn;t sound impossible, tho the cautions about 0 checking the stage security as their key job make lots of sense.

What if 0 crews ran tulips until the last page, when they read thru the Jemba end-of-stage notes just to confirm no issues with placements of finish boards? Having 0 modify Jemba stage end note as a notice is one thing (easy for all the crews starting the stage to add a "caution short shutdown") but having 0 change a bunch of Jemba notes thru the stage is another can of worms entirely.

[Jeff Hagan]

The Jemba guys usually get a preliminary copy of the route book to make the notes from. Nobody from the orgainizing side sees the notes, so nobody verifies the notes against the final route book (only competitors see the 2 books, and that is during recce, and the signs may not be there then).

Christian's idea of additional signage/bannering serves to wake up the drivers (it doesn't really solve a discrepancy if there is one)....

No way car 0/00/000 could have caught this.

I don't have a solution.

At most rallies here, someone on the organizing committee (routemaster? Clerk? Not sure who, and I suppose it could vary) typically marks out the control board location with orange flagging tape on tree branches before recce. It's mainly for the benefit of the workers so that there's no confusion over where to place the signs, but it also helps teams to identify control board locations on recce even if the signs haven't been put up.

It wouldn't work at rallies with no trees, but it should work fine at STPR.


Yeah, Jemba provides a run-out, and we always have run-out in our own notes, but sometimes this isn't enough. I've blown through the finish in heavy dust without seeing the single red board, and on more than one occasion I've had to say "I'm out of notes" when the finish was moved several hundred meters down the road from where it was marked in the book/on recce.
But why would this happen? I can understand why the stop board would be moved down the road to increase the shutdown distance, but why would the flying finish be moved, especially without telling the competitors?

[Jeff Hagan]

Liability instantly shifts with the use of notes, why does an organizer issue a route book? Pride? Tradition? Ignorance? Arrogance? Ego? Habit?
AFAIK, every sanctioning body's rules require the organizer to issue a route book for the entire course including stages.


Intergate the notes for transit into the Jemba book? Fewer books less cost?
A few years ago, Tall Pines tried merging the notes with the route book. I thought it was kinda neat, but I guess it wasn't received very well because that format never made a reappearance.

[Adrian Wintle]

If the zero car runs on Jembas, the codriver will be unable to do much of his job...looking for problems along the course...as he will have his head down. Further, while zero should be driving quickly, I would submit that using Jembas might get them going TOO fast to do their jobs. You would also have to add one more talent to the skillset already required in this car.

That said, checking the location of the flying finish in the notes could be added to zero's checklist without much strain.

Bruce

Checking that the flying finish in the notes matches the flying finish in the routebook should not need to be done by any of the opening cars. The books can be checked against one another, and any discrepancies can be checked prior to the start of the event (any event with recce has the notes available at least a day before the start of the event).

As long as the location of the finish agrees between the notes and the routebook, and 000 and 00 are checking that the controls are set up correctly against the routebook, there should be no discrepancies.

I agree with Bruce that the 0 car should not be running on notes. Their job is not to check the notes (or the routebook), it is to check the course. I agree that they should be going quickly (bogey to mid-pack times), but they should still be running at a level where they can drive what they see - they should only NEED the routebook for cautions and the like - the only discrepancies in the routebook that they should be noting are things that have changed since recce, or since the last route check by the orgainzers. They are not a gravel note car, they are the final eyes on the course to ensure that it is safe to run.

Adrian

[jandreini]

I agree with Bruce that the 0 car should not be running on notes. Their job is not to check the notes (or the routebook), it is to check the course. I agree that they should be going quickly (bogey to mid-pack times), but they should still be running at a level where they can drive what they see - they should only NEED the routebook for cautions and the like - the only discrepancies in the routebook that they should be noting are things that have changed since recce, or since the last route check by the orgainzers. They are not a gravel note car, they are the final eyes on the course to ensure that it is safe to run.

Adrian

Agreed. The route book is produced by the organizers and is the sole official description of the rally. The zero cars work for the organizers and are responsible, among their other duties, for checking the veracity of the route book. Notes provided by Rally America at additional cost to the competitors are NOT the responsibility of the organizers.

[rightseat]

If the zero car runs on Jembas, the codriver will be unable to do much of his job...looking for problems along the course...

That said, checking the location of the flying finish in the notes could be added to zero's checklist without much strain.

Bruce

This sounds like the most expedient solution to make sure things are OK at flying finish...like boards are installed where they should be, are clearly visible, etc

[Bruce]

This sounds like the most expedient solution to make sure things are OK at flying finish...like boards are installed where they should be, are clearly visible, etc

Not to mention that it's the documented task of all the lead cars. The good ones check this stuff almost without thinking about it. Some use a checklist to be certain they weren't distracted.

Bruce

[jimmy]

Um, all of us use a checklist. Some are written.

This past weekend at Black Bear (fly), one of the opening cars backed up (yes, in a control zone) and asked to check our clock at the finish. (He just read down a line or two on his list).


Not to mention that it's the documented task of all the lead cars. The good ones check this stuff almost without thinking about it. Some use a checklist to be certain they weren't distracted.

Bruce

press on,

[Bruce]

Um, all of us use a checklist. Some are written.



I stand corrected. Some use a WRITTEN checklist. I certainly hope we are rid of the lead car drivers who think it's just racing on the cheap. I'm reminded of the 000 minivan that I saw come into a finish awhile back...they had helmets on, and the brake rotors were glowing...

Bruce

[chmsam]

Just my couple of pennies worth but I'd ease off if I ran out of notes since driving at full speed++ when you're off the page is just plain nuts.

Back on topic, when I set up an FTC I've used the routes since that's all we're given. At STPR the locations are usually marked pretty well in the worker book and also have GPS coordinates listed in the margins. Of course that assumes that workers have a GPS but between the number of stage captain(s), workers, and 0 cars, somebody ought to have a GPS and locations should not be missed. The stakes or trees are marked with flags or flagging tape and SHOULD be in the right location to being with. But sometimes shiznit happens. Like I said before, the most frequent problem I've seen is that the stakes aren't worth snot.

If someone were to provide workers with a set of Jembas there shouldn't be any timing control location problems that go unnoticed but at this point workers never see the notes. Maybe stage captains should get a set and appoint a team of 3 workers to set up -- one to drive (and not at speeds even for the 000 car), one to read the routes, and the third to read the notes. More work, but less chance for missing a screw up by someone else.

The more I read this thread the more I think I'll invest in a few cheap LED safety strobes like used in boating (although a disco light ball... naw). Tied on a tree to mark the yellow and red sign locations on at least one side of the road they ought to be visible even in dusty conditions. I figure it's worth a few bucks from a broke old fart just to keep someone from getting in deep sh*t if the signs get hit or blown over. Even if no one knew what they were they would still draw attention to the location in the routes/notes and that ought to get the job done, sign or no sign, to at least to slow the cars down before they get to the finish workers.

[Adrian Wintle]

If someone were to provide workers with a set of Jembas there shouldn't be any timing control location problems that go unnoticed but at this point workers never see the notes.

The notes would have little or no meaning to the workers, since they provide the finish in the stream of instructions and are distance-referenced on a different basis compared to the organizers' documentation. A worker who is an experienced competitor should be able to use the notes to check the finish location, but I wouldn't count on anyone else doing it.

Adrian

[jandreini]

If someone were to provide workers with a set of Jembas there shouldn't be any timing control location problems that go unnoticed but at this point workers never see the notes. Maybe stage captains should get a set and appoint a team of 3 workers to set up -- one to drive (and not at speeds even for the 000 car), one to read the routes, and the third to read the notes. More work, but less chance for missing a screw up by someone else.


Once again, Jemba notes are NOT an official document provided by the organizers. Controls are set up according to the route book, the ONLY document which officially describes the route.

P.S. The organizers are provided with (1) ONE copy of Jemba notes by RA (yet we are expected to provide unlimited sets of route instructions to RA). We need (2) sets just to manage our basic needs. There are none to give to layout crews, zero cars, etc. (nor would we copy & distribute such copyrighted material).

[flatOVERcrest]

Once again, Jemba notes are NOT an official document provided by the organizers. Controls are set up according to the route book, the ONLY document which officially describes the route.

P.S. The organizers are provided with (1) ONE copy of Jemba notes by RA (yet we are expected to provide unlimited sets of route instructions to RA). We need (2) sets just to manage our basic needs. There are none to give to layout crews, zero cars, etc. (nor would we copy & distribute such copyrighted material).

I wonder if the problem (STPR SS1) could be solved by the Clerk of the course or asstnt CoC by properly placing the start and finish signs of the stages, before recce.
I have seen it done in some event in N.A. I forget if it was RNY or Tall Pines or Baie, I can't remember. It's done in the WRC events.
By doing that it would give a confirmation of the SS and SF to the crews doing recce and then the workers when they place on the stages on race day. If competitors need to add 3 more corners because the CoC realized 2 days before the rally that the FF was to close to someone's driveway, then competitors would be aware of that during the recce.
Would someone in the middle of nowhere in freezing Michigan or Missouri or Colorado, really steal our $2 start or finish signs?

[jimmy]

Yes.

Someone stole the yellow 100m board at STPR between when sweep came through and when we went up the road to retrieve it.


Would someone in the middle of nowhere in freezing Michigan or Missouri or Colorado, really steal our $2 start or finish signs?

press on,

[Bruce]

Would someone in the middle of nowhere in freezing Michigan or Missouri or Colorado, really steal our $2 start or finish signs?

Yes. It's happened. It's happened during the running of a stage...although it wasn't a red flying finish.

And tell me where you can get them for $2 please.

Bruce

[jandreini]

I wonder if the problem (STPR SS1) could be solved by the Clerk of the course or asstnt CoC by properly placing the start and finish signs of the stages, before recce.
I have seen it done in some event in N.A. I forget if it was RNY or Tall Pines or Baie, I can't remember. It's done in the WRC events.
By doing that it would give a confirmation of the SS and SF to the crews doing recce and then the workers when they place on the stages on race day. If competitors need to add 3 more corners because the CoC realized 2 days before the rally that the FF was to close to someone's driveway, then competitors would be aware of that during the recce.


I did put up flags at the control locations for recce & the stage crews. I think they worked well.


Would someone in the middle of nowhere in freezing Michigan or Missouri or Colorado, really steal our $2 start or finish signs?

Yes, & they are, for now, irreplacable.

[chmsam]

Getting a copy of the notes leading up to the finish would work fine for me. It's not that hard to back track from the finish line to be sure that even just that part of the notes lines up. The fact that they're not official is nowhere as important to me as being sure that there's an accurate description and that everyone agrees on where the signs are expected to be located.

And folks shouldn't be too surprised that a few of us common people who come out to work might be able to read the notes. Why heck, some volunteers can even walk and chew gum at the same time. It ain't like the notes are written in Latin (but then again I only had about 4 years of Latin). I am sometimes surprised at the number of people that come out to a rally who can read but that's a whole 'nother story.

To put it in perspective I try to do all I can to be sure that I don't have any surprises. For instance, I have sets of maps for the STPR area with very accurate mileages between the intersecting roads (and some trails). I always compare the routes to the maps (just in case) and using notes to be sure that everyone is on the same page (no pun intended but that's a pretty good one anyway) seems like a reasonable idea.

It comes down to the fact that I don't like screw ups and I absolutely hate extra paperwork too, and being reasonably certain of not having a car running into the finish workers sounds like a good deal plus a lot less stressful for all concerned.

Oh, and yeah, the signs have been stolen at STPR in the past too.

[Paul Jaeger]

I was the stage captain at the finish of stage 1 at STPR. Part of the problem at stage one was that there were one or more errors in the routebook concerning the last few instructions. From the routebook the distance from an acute turn to the FTC (stop sign) location on stage one was 0.66 miles. The stop location was a gate so we are sure we were at the correct location here. On stage two the distance from the ATC (red clock location) at the same gate to the same acute turn was 0.50 miles. I believe this is the reason for the discrepancy between the route instructions and the notes.

This is a pretty rare mistake and wasn't caught probably because the stage was a turn around stage and nobody paid attention to the next instruction after the finish of one which was also in error.

Anyway, using the route book, you could have placed the stage finish at two different locations dependig if you measured from the acute turn or you measured from the gate. I didn't have to measure either distance since there were stakes placed at the flying finish and yellow flag locations when I arrived.

[flatOVERcrest]

Paul, thanks a lot for explaining the situation from your side. To be honest it wasn't the most dangerous of cases because:
A) The open nature of the stage, especially on that particular section.
B) We and most competitors knew and remember that particular part of the rally well (flying finish on the L3 and stop control just past the R4 on the rocky section, 100 meters before the junction) from having run the stage last year and more importantly from Recce. Another example if more is needed that recce generally makes events much safer..

Thanks again for the fantastic job you and your crew do at East coast events.
Primo stage crews FTW!