HANS Device Tends to "creep" Around Under the Shoulder Belts

[Safe Drives]

Hi All,

Today on another forum that we are paying vendors on the below question was posed to me.


Charles - I have the GFORCE belts but need the shoulder belts replaced with the smaller HANS compatible ones. Do you sell these?

My response to his question is quoted below and I think this brings a HUGE point / problem that we all need to think about. Now that many of you have experience with the HANS Device you can probably comment on what I think is a huge problem. The problem being that the HANS Device tends to "creep" around under the shoulder belts, especially in a rough environment like rally.



Hi,

Gforce does not offer separate "For HANS use only" 2 inch wide shoulder belts. In fact I just double checked and they don't offer a "For HANS use only" 2 inch wide shoulder belt system at all.

You do know that HANS Device company says that 3" wide harness webbing is just fine? However as you have certainly found, the HANS Device tends to "creep" around under the belts. This is true of even the "For HANS use only" 2 inch wide shoulder belts that are available from Schroth and others. Watch the WRC or Dakar in car video for evidence of this problem. And you wondered why we don't offer HANS Device didn't you?

Honestly, your safest option is to sell that HANS Device and buy a R3 or even better, a Hybrid from Safe Drives LLC. We even have used units starting at $*** shipped.
***

The H&NR units that Safe Drives offer do not rely 100% on the shoulder belts for head restraint the way that the HANS Device and the DefNder Device do. I have personally used the R3 and Hybrid H&NR devices in my own rally car for over three seasons now and they are SAFE, COMFORTABLE and just waaaaaaay better, especially for Rally and Off Road racing than any other device. Period.


Now certainly that last paragragh is my own opinion but I don't think there is a better person than myself to comment on the R3 or Hybrid devices when used in a rally car.

I have never experienced any sort of "creep" under the shoulder harnesses when using the R3 or Hybrid devices.

I think North American Rally was the first to adopt the H&NR rule for regional rally so we may have more experience with these devices than any other part of the world.

I'd like to know what your experience with "creep" has been when using the HANS Device or the DefNder Device in rally.

*** Blatent advertisement removed.
Link to thread that the initial question was posed. LINK (http://www.dirtyimpreza.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8502)

[Bjorn240]

I've never experienced anything of the sort. I'm using the 2" belts now, but never had an issue on 3" belts either. Sorry Charles, I know you're keen to sell your (fine) products, but I think this is unfounded fear mongering, based on my experience. BTW, have you used a HANS?

[Morison]

I've never experienced any sort of creep with 3" belts and my HANS device.
Further, I've taken a head on hit immediately following a heavy 90deg hit and had full protection from the HANS device and it was still secured by the belts when all the fun stopped.

[Safe Drives]

I've never experienced anything of the sort. I'm using the 2" belts now, but never had an issue on 3" belts either. Sorry Charles, I know you're keen to sell your (fine) products,

This may have happend and you never realized it. Check you in car and I bet you'll find that your device is "creeping".


but I think this is unfounded fear mongering, based on my experience.

That seems a bit harsh to me.

I have seen this "creep' of the HANS Device in many videos.


BTW, have you used a HANS?

No, I will not use the HANS Device in a rally car. Rally is my passion and is the currently the only race type of event that I will put my money into.

Have you tried a R3 or Hybrid?

But seriously, I'm asking for feedback from HANS Device users in this thread. Has anyone else experienced "creep" or lack of it and would like to comment?

It does seem to me that the 2" wide belts and 8 point double shoulder belts were designed to aleviate this potential problem.

[granthughes]

I too have never experienced this creep. I think it's probably more user error than an inherent design flaw. Improperly tightened belts could easily cause this. I'd suggest you also start recommending to people to make sure they wear their belts as tight as possible if they do go with Hans. I typically tighten them, then suck in and tighten on them a bit more at the start line. Sometime on stage, if it's an easy and flat section, I'll reach up and give a little pull down just to make sure they haven't loosened any little bit.
I possibly would have considered one of the other systems, but as the international standard is FIA certification, the lack of that certification kept me from even considering them. Canada is just too close and has too many amazing events.

[Eric Burmeister]

I can move the thing around if the belts aren't tight enough. This is a good thing in my opinion, because it encourages me or reminds me to make sure my belts are tight enough before the clock gets to "0". If I push my head forward and tug on the thing sharply, and the Hans moves, I grab another glove full of shoulder strap.

[jimmy]

I've been using a HANS since 2004.

When I first started using it, my right shoulder belt would slip off center to the right. When we changed the mounting of the shoulder belts to 1) closer to the seat and 2) crossing the belts (in an X pattern behind the seat), that problem went away. This is with both the 3" and 2" belts.

Thus the problem was the mounting of the shoulder belts and not in the HANS.

Also, the belts have to be absolutely snug (and that is a good thing) (many of us wear them too loose - go to a road racing school sometime).

press on,

[Safe Drives]

I too have never experienced this creep. I think it's probably more user error than an inherent design flaw. Improperly tightened belts could easily cause this. I'd suggest you also start recommending to people to make sure they wear their belts as tight as possible if they do go with Hans. I typically tighten them, then suck in and tighten on them a bit more at the start line. Sometime on stage, if it's an easy and flat section, I'll reach up and give a little pull down just to make sure they haven't loosened any little bit.
I possibly would have considered one of the other systems, but as the international standard is FIA certification, the lack of that certification kept me from even considering them. Canada is just too close and has too many amazing events.

Yes, tighten your belts really tight you crazy rally people! :D

Here at 15 and at 27 seconds you see some "creep", http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pFJ-7frTB4o&feature=related

[Safe Drives]

At 1:33 & 2:24, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wiK_mgWjtJ0&feature=related

[Safe Drives]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JMK35jAG8_M

46 to 49 seconds ^

[Safe Drives]

At 3:07 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5OBjf4fiCOY&feature=related

This last one is WRC Subaru with 2" wide "For HANS use only" webbing. I'm quite sure that they are using the proper harness mounting.

Seems quite clear that "creep" happens even with everything correct harness wise.

So then maybe I should ask, "How do you feel about your HANS Device creep?"

[dano9988]

In all examples shown, the belts do not look as if they have properly tightened down. The belts look comfortable, not tight.

Thanks for showing how important tighting the belts is.

[Ferdinand]

If by "creep" you mean the HANS is moving under the shoulder belts, so what?

I can see it being a problem if the belts are so excessively loose that they slip right off the HANS. That would be a problem, yes, because if they're that loose then the belts can slip right off your shoulders too.

But what's the problem with it "creeping" back and forth under the belt? Where's it going to go? It can only move forward far enough to contact the back of your helmet, or back far enough to contact the head rest of your seat.

The important thing is for it not to "creep" at the moment when it's actually needed, which would be during a severe frontal impact.

The HANS is only required, and only ever comes into play, in the moment after your torso has started applying huge tensile loads into the shoulder straps of your harness while your head is otherwise unrestrained and still in free flight. At that moment you want your helmet to hit the limit of the HANS straps before your head reaches the tensile limits of your neck.

Under the enormous applied belt loads of a severe enough frontal impact, with the HANS positioned between you and the belts, it's a certainty that the HANS will not "creep". And even if it started out worst case touching the back of your helmet, the length of the tether straps are designed to come into play before you reach the end of the tensile limit of your neck.

So how do you see it mattering if the HANS "creeps" while the belts are otherwise comfortably snugged?

[granthughes]

How do you identify between creep and improper use in the first place since the first time you see the Hans it's already off or halfway off the belt in the first place. I'll admit I've been in a hurry getting in the car and have had the inside belt not over the Hans strap. I did fix it before tightening the belt, but I've done it. Also quite easy to have it riding too far off the edge if you're in a hurry or not paying attention.
I can't quite see what you're seeing in the last video, but I'm guessing it's the inside on Phil Mills. Again, how do you know it slipped off on stage and he didn't simply belt in and tighten it without hooking one side?
I'd prefer to not wear any of them personally, but I'll always stick with my Hans that is universally accepted, not only in the US, and is much much easier to remove from myself than any of it's competitors. It's kinda funny watching some of my friends finagle their way into some of the alternatives.
Regardless, they all save lives in the long run. And like everything, it's part of a system. Belts, suit, seat, seat mounting, belt mounting, and head restraints, all have to work together.

[Flying_Finn]

I've had a Hans for 3 events now, with 3" shoulder straps. I keep my belts really tight.

I have not had any issues at all with creep, and I'm not worried about it either. The belts aren't going to slip off the device.

[AlanO]

Now certainly that last paragragh is my own opinion but I don't think there is a better person than myself to comment on the R3 or Hybrid devices when used in a rally car.

I have never experienced any sort of "creep" under the shoulder harnesses when using the R3 or Hybrid devices.


This may have happend and you never realized it. Check you in car and I bet you'll find that your device is "creeping".

So you're an expert who can state unequivocally that you've never experienced "creep" with the R3 and Hybrid, but HANS users who make the same claim simply "never realized it"?

[simoniac]

I've never had any creep either and I use 3" straps. Usually when I get home after an event I have mild bruising on my upper chest because I have the straps on so damn tight. I believe it improves my driving if I'm "one with the car". When I start the stage nothing moves except the car. Well, almost: I guess my head/arms/legs are moving.

I do take care that the straps are properly aligned on the HANS and perhaps that's where the 2" straps might help since there's no curling into the HANS but I've been very happy with mine.

Simon
USUK Racing

[bentmettle]

It helps if a person can feel that the belts are pushed up above the lip on the outer edges of the yoke. They'll still move some, but the lip does help keep it from flopping around. If they're properly tightened, it's not like it's going to fall off.

Most of the quick and dirty tests folks do to check these involve rotating the head down. There's no way the yoke can stop that rotation movement, and I don't think it's designed to. Maybe someone can correct my assumption if it's false, but in an frontal impact, the head will continue to move forward, not rotate.

that said, looking at the system- the HANS tethers are Nylon straps that are what, 15mm wide? Doesn't seem like there's much concern about the shoulder belts not holding the HANS (due to impact forces) unless the involved width of the belt starts approaching that of the anchors.


If a person isn't comfortable with the system, that's obviously their decision, but this thread seems like a bit of a smear :/

[dano9988]

If a person isn't comfortable with the system, that's obviously their decision, but this thread seems like a bit of a smear :/

Glad to see someone else thinks this as well

[Jason_Grahn]

Charles, stick with promoting your products (you do a great job). Bagging on the competition has never been a good tactic.

[Don Kennedy]

3", keep them tight, never had any creep. Stayed in place and did it's job during my RWV 3 times pretty violent roll. Believe my son will say the same thing.

[C2Rally]

It seems as though Charles, you are looking for 'anyone' to get on your wagon in order to promote your products by continued jabs at the competition. I am a new user of the HANS device and I am really happy with it for many reasons, as many on here have told you also. I'm sure your products are great as well. How about ask forum members who have used your products to tell others why they like it, and perhaps why they chose it over the HANS. This may be a more favorable approach in gaining recognition and awareness for your products. Just my two-bits
CR

[Audi UrQ]

Hi Charles,

Attempting to discredit the competition by trying to spread fear, uncertainty and doubt is never good business practice. Especially when it comes from a non-objective party, and when what you describe doesn't seem to match with any or even the majority of users' experiences. I don't think it lends any credibility to your status as a vendor who competitors would like to turn to for independent, unbiased, objective advice.

I have used a HANS at many events over the course of several years, with 3" belts, and have personally never had an issue with the supposed "creep" issue you describe (though I am always certain to make sure the shoulder belts are located properly in the shoulder channels, and that my belts are appropriately tightened).

I personally do think that Hutchens and R3 also make a quality product, and I would actually consider buying one of those devices if they were also FIA-approved (in addition to SFI 38.1), and were thus more universally accepted. In any case, the use of any H&N restraint system vs. not using one at all is obviously hugely beneficial.

Anyway, I don't think there is anything wrong with having a strong opinion, choosing to only stock a particular product, or trying to explain why you believe a certain product is superior. However, when you do so by attempting to discredit the competition at the same time, and especially when you have a vested financial interest in it, then I think it's possible that it may do more harm than good to your credibility as an unbiased, objective source of advice. I think it's possible for you to still spread the message you are trying to convey, by highlighting the advantages of the system you favor, without actually attempting to discredit the competition at the same time. It may be a somewhat fine line to walk, but I think prospective customers would be more appreciative of and receptive to your advice if you modify your sales approach.

[dmoser]

As far as I know, the only time my HANS has been out of place is when I didn't place the belts right in the first place. (I'm unlikely to ever have to deal with belts not tight enough.) There have certainly been, in rally and other motorsports, crashes by wearers of HANS devices. I wonder whether there has been an instance of the device not doing its job because of "creep"?

Dick

[granthughes]

C'mon guys, take it a little easy on Charles. I think that he truly feels that Hans has major design flaws and as a vendor feels obliged to point them out. In theory this looks like a very possible occurence, but I think most of us feel that any occurence of this has mostly been due to user error, not a flaw in the design. And if they do actually "creep" I don't think it's common enough to be concerned with.

[bentmettle]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Safe Drives
Hi,

Gforce does not offer separate "For HANS use only" 2 inch wide shoulder belts. In fact I just double checked and they don't offer a "For HANS use only" 2 inch wide shoulder belt system at all.

You do know that HANS Device company says that 3" wide harness webbing is just fine? However as you have certainly found, the HANS Device tends to "creep" around under the belts. This is true of even the "For HANS use only" 2 inch wide shoulder belts that are available from Schroth and others. Watch the WRC or Dakar in car video for evidence of this problem. And you wondered why we don't offer HANS Device didn't you?

Honestly, your safest option is to sell that HANS Device and buy a R3 or even better, a Hybrid from Safe Drives LLC. We even have used units starting at $*** shipped.
***

The H&NR units that Safe Drives offer do not rely 100% on the shoulder belts for head restraint the way that the HANS Device and the DefNder Device do. I have personally used the R3 and Hybrid H&NR devices in my own rally car for over three seasons now and they are SAFE, COMFORTABLE and just waaaaaaay better, especially for Rally and Off Road racing than any other device. Period.

>>


The suggestion that the HANS should be sold and replaced because there are "safer" options is irresponsible and alarmist. As a vendor, it's also self-serving.

[markhuebbe]

...Usually when I get home after an event I have mild bruising on my upper chest because I have the straps on so damn tight....

Me too. My belts are super tight and I get bruises on/around my collar bone wearing the HANS.

[simoniac]

Just clarify: I was getting the same mild bruising before I started using the HANS. I don't want anyone getting the impression that my bruises are from the HANS. They're definitely the result of the tightness of the belts and, perhaps, my susceptibility to bruising.

Simon

[rightseat]

Now have approx 40 rallies wearing HANS, using both 3" Sabelts and 2" HANS-specific Schroths.

Yes, got bruises under my HANS once...mebbe had something to do with smacking a VW-size rock in the rasperry bushes? We caromed off rock at 60mph, bounced across road, landed in rockpile. Car = totaled, us = fine.

The 3" Sabelts were never a creeping issue. Experienced the 'creeping' thing a couple times initially with the Schroths, crossed shoulder belts behind seat and poof problem gone. I think the angle/height of the shoulder belt cutouts in seat affects this issue as well.

[Don Kennedy]

C'mon guys, take it a little easy on Charles. I think that he truly feels that Hans has major design flaws and as a vendor feels obliged to point them out. In theory this looks like a very possible occurence, but I think most of us feel that any occurence of this has mostly been due to user error, not a flaw in the design. And if they do actually "creep" I don't think it's common enough to be concerned with.
That's fine if he feels that way. But that's not the way to present the case. As I did 3 times when I worked for a boss that was a big problem and incompetent, I went to the higher ups. I didn't attempt to tell them everything that was going on that was wrong. I just said please open your eyes and take a good look at the situation. 2 out of 3 times I was successful. Nothing wrong with Charles being concerned, but all he should be doing is tell us that he's concerned and asking us to open our eyes and look at the situation closely.

[Shawn]

A couple of things to consider on the HANS

1. Proper installation of the harness is critical as several have already mentioned.

2. What do you think the anti-friction material on the HANS is for (not what you might think)? In an impact as the body moves forward the belts tighten even more, the grip between the HANS and the harness causes the HANS to actually move back tightening the tethers even quicker. This was explained to us in the dealer training and related to us as Sparco had made a suit with pouches for the HANS which totally went against this process - it has since been taken off the market.

There has been a lot of engineering and testing gone into these devices for over 25 years - they are number 1 for a reason. :)

Shawn

[Wedge]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pFJ-7frTB4o&feature=related

Pause that video at 42 seconds and take a look at the codrivers right shoulder belt. It is completely off the Hans device.
Now, I cannot speak for the reasoning why that may happen. But it's proof that it can, and does happen, and it renders the device completely ineffective.

[Morison]

Pause that video at 42 seconds and take a look at the codrivers right shoulder belt.

Also note that the 'co-driver' is doing nothing but enjoying the scenery. So, the reality is that someone who was going for a ride (sponsor, media, etc) didn't belt up properly with the HANS device.

Does the HANS rely on being used properly - yup.

[RRR_K2]

Experienced the 'creeping' thing a couple times initially with the Schroths, crossed shoulder belts behind seat and poof problem gone. I think the angle/height of the shoulder belt cutouts in seat affects this issue as well.I had a bit of an issue with creeping at first (with 3" belts). I started pulling my belts tighter and we crossed the belts and it solved the problem. When we replaced the belts we just moved them closer together (where they attached to the cage) and I haven't had a problem since. You will most likely have problems if the belts aren't installed correctly (at the correct angles) and if you don't tighten them enough. (tight enough = much tighter than most people are used to doing in rallying)


3", keep them tight, never had any creep. Stayed in place and did it's job during my RWV 3 times pretty violent roll. Believe my son will say the same thing.
Yes I will, though I'm sure my pressing my head back against the seat during the roll helped a bit.

In addition to that nasty roll at RWV we had a crash at STPR in '06 where we tank-slapped a stump which pirouetted us into a head-on into a tree, and we didn't have any problems. Granted, it wasn't at "high" speed, but it was still a decent impact.

I also T-boned somebody that spun in front of me at the local circle-track last fall and the HANS did it's job fine. (I know, but I needed something to race after we destroyed the car at RWV, and they actually approached me about driving it.)

[dazed driver]

Yeah, I know im about to get flamed... but mounting the belts in the back is wrong. HANs recommends mounting them close, and if they arent close, crossing them. Most cars with the belts mounted in the back arent crossed.

I dont believe the stretching is so bad, as it slows you down, but more of the extra slack to snap, and more wiggle room for the HANs. Houdini could wiggle out of being tied to a chair because he encouraged the people to use lots of rope. The more rope you use, the looser youre tying them down, should they flex there muscles and set they're legs slightly away from the base of the chair. Same concept. Shorter belts = more tension

[rightseat]

Also important to point out that HANS itself has dealt with the creep issue.

My HANS is a earlier model from 2003/4, with flat shoulder yoke and roughed-up surface to improve grip of belts on the yoke. Newer ones have a raised lip on outer edge of shoulder yoke to hellp keep belts in place.. bye bye creeps. ;). So, OK, yeh, I accept this as the price of being an early adopter. Meanwhile I've wrecked 2x where the HANS was a good friend in my time of need and no doubt the device justified its purchase price.

Since then I've thought about modifying mine own hans by adding the raised lip. Have a bunch of buds who work in the boat business molding/autoclaving all sorts of sexay CF stuff, they've told me 'no prob I could add that lip and nobody would know' but I worry about scrutineers passing a post-mfr-modified HANS device.

farking law-yOrs. :cool: If HANS itself updated the device, why cain't I.

[[[PS--yeh, I know why, but still.]]]]

[[[PPS--Have watched sevral onboard tapes where I crank belts tighter on stage...I'd take this as a sign we are going faster faster. Am OK wid dis, self-preservation is a good thing.]]]

[bentmettle]

Mitten clips

http://www.kidsurplus.com/itemdetail.asp?item=29%20NOL%2020026#0022;srccode= WEB

[RRR_K2]

My HANS is a earlier model from 2003/4, with flat shoulder yoke and roughed-up surface to improve grip of belts on the yoke.
Mine is also the 03/04 vintage, which might explain why our problems/solutions were so similar... ;)

[ajax]

Since then I've thought about modifying mine own hans by adding the raised lip. Have a bunch of buds who work in the boat business molding/autoclaving all sorts of sexay CF stuff, they've told me 'no prob I could add that lip and nobody would know' but I worry about scrutineers passing a post-mfr-modified HANS device.

The problem is that this would be looked at the same way as modifying a homoligated roll cage. It doesn't matter that you made it better even if you did, it wasn't part of the original design.

[jimmy]

Used my 2004 - no "lip" model, this last weekend.

No "creep".

Now, this was a tarmac event, not gravel.

It was in Canada, so only HANS H&NR are allowed.

press on,

[flatOVERcrest]

http://www.wrc.com/jsp/index.jsp?lnk=101&id=4541&desc=Hans safety system gets Loeb’s vote

[bknblk]

Yea, but unless there's a software issue the robot never crashes. :)

[Joe Average]

So I'm watching round 1 of this years British Rally Championship,( Don't ask where I get the video from), and an in-car video of Mark Higgin's car catches my eye. His co-driver's H&N is on top of both shoulder harness straps in the middle of the stage. An interview at the stage finish shows the same. I don't think this was creep, I think the helmet and H&N was put on after the belts and nobody at the stage start cought it. I would post a picture but that computer cut & paste picture stuff is over my head. Look for stage 5 or 6 of the Bulldog Rally on You Tube or something.

Sean Gallagher

[Wedge]

http://www.wrc.com/jsp/index.jsp?lnk=101&id=4541&desc=Hans safety system gets Loeb’s vote

When the HANS was first introduced in the WRC it was only mandatory for the manufacturer teams. The one year that Loeb was a "Privateer", he chose NOT to wear one.

[Audi UrQ]

When the HANS was first introduced in the WRC it was only mandatory for the manufacturer teams. The one year that Loeb was a "Privateer", he chose NOT to wear one.

I think that's pretty common to all H&N restraint systems the first time you try them, it takes a little while to get used to them (i.e. head tethered, therefore somewhat restricting head movement, and wearing an additional item). Loeb even states as much in the article referenced.

[Wedge]

I think that's pretty common to all H&N restraint systems the first time you try them, it takes a little while to get used to them (i.e. head tethered, therefore somewhat restricting head movement, and wearing an additional item). Loeb even states as much in the article referenced.

Yeah, that's true. But if he truely believed it was as great a safety enhancement as he says, he would've worn it anyway. Plenty of drivers have worn one before it was required. Look no further than the WRC, Petter and the rest of the Subaru team were the first ones at that level to use the HANS, a full year before it was required of them.

[Lancia037Rally]

Extreme cases of Hans creep have lead to Hans wedgies. Symptoms include walking funny and talking several octaves higher. Consult your physician should you have a Hans wedgie lasting more than 8 hours.

[Ferdinand]

That cracks me up!


So to speak...

[Safe Drives]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fQiDtLOVzbw&feature=PlayList&p=6F3E941ADDE55B65

@ 3:03 ^^^ "HANS Device Creep"

[Jason_Grahn]

There's a creep named Hans that lives down the street from me. I hate that guy!

[UP2MTNS]

There's a creep named Hans that lives down the street from me. I hate that guy!

just give him a hans wedgie ;)

[JeremyN]

I bought my HANs after a hard roll at Rally Tennessee 07. Haven't run an event since without it (~10 events) and have never had the issue you are pushing. Had a hard off with two head on impacts at RNY and we were both fine and not even sore.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fQiDtLOVzbw&feature=PlayList&p=6F3E941ADDE55B65

@ 3:03 ^^^ "HANS Device Creep"

Charles, if you are so concerned about this issue that you've coined "creep" then please contact the HANs engineering department and work with them to improve their product, or file a class action lawsuit on behalf of all users of the product, or petition to get the product banned for competition. However, continually posting clips as evidence isn't going to A) Make me stop using my HANs or B) Get me to purchase a "safe" alternative from your company.

Personally, I don't like the HANs company or their pseudo monopolistic practices, price fixing et al. But the fact is they make the product with the most wide-spread acceptance and real-world usage to back their claims and with the Sport model one that is price competitive with your offerings.

Jeremy

[hbennett76]

JeremyN,

"pseudo monopolistic practices, price fixing et al"

Not quite sure what you mean. We do appreciate your use and confidence.

Please explain? You can reach me at 888-426-7999 or hbennett@hansdevice.com. Thanks.

Howard Bennett
HANS Performance

[Carl S]

Please explain?

AKA Its too flippin expensive!

At least I think so.
The price of a HANS is one reason why I had to drop out of rallying for the time being.

[HiTempguy]

AKA Its too flippin expensive!

At least I think so.
The price of a HANS is one reason why I had to drop out of rallying for the time being.

You actually mean the price of ALL H&N's are too expensive, as they are all (including the sport model HANS) around the $850cdn range from the shopping I've done. In fact, the only one that comes close is the R3 Rage (here in Canada) in price. I like my HANS, and when I watched the first video with the "spectator" on the ride along instantly noticed the improper belt placement/tightening.

[hoche]

The price of a HANS is one reason why I had to drop out of rallying for the time being.

Never did understand that argument. You had nearly three years of warning. How much time did you need?

[Carl S]

Never did understand that argument. You had nearly three years of warning. How much time did you need?
Everyone has their limits. Requiring HNR's surpassed mine because of how much they cost.

[johnhuebbe]

I'm sure if you asked around you could borrow one. I did that for the past 2 years until I could save up some money to buy one.

[Audi UrQ]

Carl, I understand your point and the overall cost of rallying, and everyone has a certain point beyond which the fun/$ ratio equation is no longer worth it to them to continue competing. However, Hoche's point is that with almost 3 years of warning if you had saved $20/mo, or $60/mo for one year, you would have had the money to buy a H&N. Also, it's a one-time expenditure.

And John makes a great point too: I have found that often many rallyists are willing to lend out their H&N if they are not using it themselves for a particular rally.

[Morison]

JeremyN,
"pseudo monopolistic practices, price fixing et al"
Not quite sure what you mean.

MAP conditions with retailers are often seen by consumers as 'price fixing.'

[Morison]

JeremyN,
"pseudo monopolistic practices, price fixing et al"
Not quite sure what you mean.

MAP conditions with retailers are often seen by consumers as 'price fixing.'
(that is where the annoying 'call us for pricing' likely comes from on websites.)

[Rally EVO]

In reading this thread, I'm trying to decide if this is simply a bash on Hans thread or a blatant sales rant or... Forget that, I know exactly what it is. It's pretty obvious.

So... in hopes of turning this actually into a discussion about HNR systems, I use the DefNder HNR (www.defnderneckbrace.com) which has ZERO creep, seems more comfortable to me than some of the others, is $549 with helmet hardware, completely certified and has frontal AND side extension protection.

I'll let you tinker with mine if you want to see them up close. Just let me know.

Not saying "buy this, don't buy that".... just that there are other options out there.

Scott

[Rallychick from Oregon]

I use a HANS, and my co-driver uses an R3 (we call it "Franz").

I have not noticed any "HANS creep", but then again, I tighten my belts down a LOT. The only time I had a problem was because I had hurriedly thrown on my belts and the left-hand shoulder harness was actually under the arm of the HANS. I put it in the proper position.

My HANS is one of the newer models, so it has the rough-surface and lips on the shoulders.

[bmxpunk]

In reading this thread, I'm trying to decide if this is simply a bash on Hans thread or a blatant sales rant or... Forget that, I know exactly what it is. It's pretty obvious.

So... in hopes of turning this actually into a discussion about HNR systems, I use the DefNder HNR (www.defnderneckbrace.com) which has ZERO creep, seems more comfortable to me than some of the others, is $549 with helmet hardware, completely certified and has frontal AND side extension protection.

I'll let you tinker with mine if you want to see them up close. Just let me know.

Not saying "buy this, don't buy that".... just that there are other options out there.

Scott
I second that. I have been incredibly happy with my defnder and had no problems with creep. I had my heart set on a HANS before as I tried it on and liked how it felt. I didn't get the R3 simply because it wasn't comfortable on me.

I manage a business myself and I can understand your enthusiam for a product but there are better ways of pushing it, like your rent to own program.

[RichardM]

Scott does not, to my knowledge, sell rally equipment. I think he is simply reporting as a user.

[Rally EVO]

No, I don't. I think the second half of his post wasn't actually directed at me though, but to the OP.

Scott

[RichardM]

Probably so.

[bmxpunk]

Sorry, I didn't make myself clear. I quoted him because I have and love the defnder as well. The rest of the post was to OP

[Safe Drives]

I have to point out the "HANS CREEP" in this image.


No need to thank me, I do this for fun.

http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/hh111/jetta2dr/chrisscared.jpg

http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/hh111/jetta2dr/chrismonkey.jpg

The shoulder belt is off on the right side.

I found this image in a recent thread in the Photo & Video forum.

[Carl S]

I have to point out the "HANS CREEP" in this image.



The shoulder belt is off on the right side.

I found this image in a recent thread in the Photo & Video forum.

I deleted the pictures because I dont want to take any part in your propaganda compaigns. Like many others have said, promote the benefits of YOUR products, dont slam others. It makes you look like a dink.

[Audi UrQ]

Charles,

Regardless of your actual intentions, and whether you genuinely feel you it is your responsibility to educate the rally community w.r.t. an alleged potential or perceived safety issue, IMO (and it appears many others' too) your constant FUD (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fear,_uncertainty_and_doubt) campaign does far more harm than good to your business credibility and integrity, especially since you have a financial interest in the issue.

As has been re-iterated by many others, I feel you would be far better served by promoting the positive benefits of the products that you are selling, e.g. 'does not require proper positioning of harness belts for maximum effectiveness', rather than spreading FUD about products that you do not sell.

[BenSlocum]

When the HANS was first introduced in the WRC it was only mandatory for the manufacturer teams. The one year that Loeb was a "Privateer", he chose NOT to wear one.

2006 when he was with Kronos? I've been re-watching these lately. Loeb is wearing a HANS.